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Bank Park ANPR PCN Claimform - Blue Car Park 2 Merry Hill Brierley DY5 1QX - *** Claim Dismissed ***


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So, so far we have -

 

1.  Appalling signage with the £60/£100-ish charge in particular being illegible.  No PP either.

 

2.  Double dipping, you actually obeyed what was on their silly signs.

 

3.  No locus standi.  A blank unsigned template is not a letter, let alone a contract.

 

4.  Double recovery.  As well as £50 legal costs they have invented £60 Unicorn Food Tax.

 

WS in post 99 is useful for (1), (3) & (4)  https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/417771-cel-pcn-claimform-tenerife-buildings-station-road-south-gosforth-newcastle-ne3-1qd-claim-discontinued/page/4/#comments

 

WS in post 87 is useful for (1), (3) & (4)  https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/421029-opcdcb-legal-anpr-pcn-paoloc-now-claimform-overstay-st-johns-retail-park-wolves-claim-discontinued/page/4/#comments

 

WS in post 122 is again useful for (1), (3) & 4  https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/410445-ukcpmgladstones-windscreen-pcn-claimform-vista-centre-salisbury-rd-hounslow-tw4-6jq-claim-dismissed/page/5/#comments

 

WS in post 58 with comments in post 59 useful for (3) and (4)  https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/422971-excel-anpr-windscreen-pcn-claimform-brewery-st-car-park-chesterfield-on-0207-2018-claim-dismissed/page/3/#comments

 

I haven't got time to look at the lot, but there are probably useful WSs in the following (scroll down the pages till you come to the WS, which will always be an attachment)

 

https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/419899-ukcpmgladstones-spycar-pcn-claimform-no-stopping-trinity-park-birm-airport-claim-dismissed/

 

https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/414313-cpmbw-windscreen-pcns-bw-pap-loc-now-claimform-residential-car-park-the-citrus-building-maderia-road-bournemouth-claim-dismissed-with-costs/

 

https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/421756-vcs-pcn-claimform-broomfield-developements-broomspring-close-s37xa-claim-dismissed/

 

https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/429200-excel-pcn-claimform-broomhill-roof-car-park-in-sheffield-claim-dismissed/

 

https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/419312-vcs-pcn-claimform-no-stopping-in-restricted-zone-bristol-airport-claim-dismissed/

 

 

We could do with some help from you.

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One thing to bear in mind is that despite the amendment, it does mean that the original WS that the director had certified his statement as being true was not in fact true. Furthermore he made another

No need to feel guilty we are here to give you the best chance of beating the crooks. So to continue 21] it's a bit ironic of claiming the defendant is using the internet when they themselves are

Thanks FTM   Did a search on dudley council site for the postcode of the shopping centre. Didnt find anything but Im not really sure if i did everything correctly.    I called the

Sorry, had to swap my shift in order to get the WS done.

 

Been to the site today and have taken photos..

 

Just replying to few questions posed earlier by the respectable caggers

 

 

1. The NTK was dated 25/6/2019 and yes it was close to the contravention date of 15/6/2019. Because I was moving home, I had my mail on redirection to a relative so cannot be sure when she received it, but I suspect the PPC must have wisened up from past experience and sent it within the 14 day rule and if dated 25th June, it still had 4 days to arrive so I think its probably compliant from a date point of view

 

 

2. The Letter of claim was dated 19/11 2019. Claim form 8/7/2020. Therefore 8 months apart.

 

3. Unsigned template between the PPc and managent company ( Exhibit 1)  IS SIGNED. I have redacted it so it appears unsigned but there is a signature . So although its not a contract, please take note that there is both a name and a signature on it. Its just that I  have redacted it .

 

4. Double Dipping- I have bank statements showing I went to Nandos/BM and a few more. I know I wasnt in one space for the whole duration but the shopping centre is such that all is connected so providing receipts from various shops wont necessarily proof that I moved the car because all the shops are kind of interconnected. there is a Home Sense which actually appears to have a free parking with no legally binding signages at its entrance. I do remember going there but didnt buy anything. 

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Understood the letter is signed.  Still not a contract though.

 

Insist on double dipping.  Firstly, judges often "hone in" on one part of the WS in particular to try to get the case over quickly, so you need to chuck in the kitchen sink to give the judge various chances to hoy the case out.  Secondly, the judge's decision will be based on the balance of probabilities, and if you come across as a honest witness the judge may well think you probably moved your vehicle (especially when the opposition are complete crooks who hide their charges in the tiniest of tiny writing on signs too small to be read).

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urm..have we missed the obvious here:

(including the scamming fleecer that charges for advice and defence and more for court and WS writing . i have it on good authority his total costs run to £320 for court appearance as a Mackenzie friend) and which is a templated boiler defence on numerous sites on the internet for FREE just inserted the mugs details ...ruddy scammer! 

 

the WS clearly states at para 11: maximum parking 4hrs

the sign at their payment machine in their ws (pdf p20) clearly state upto 6hrs.

AND states Free Parking Mon/sat - 4:30PM/8:00PM

 

their NTK/POC states: 

Period of Parking:
From: 15/06/2019 at 12:28:47
To: 15/06/2019 at 19:11:37
Reason for Issue: Overstaying Maximum stay
Period

 

so you did NOT exceed what you are charged with : that being over a maximum stay of 4hrs as it was free after 4:30pm - that makes the parking period that can be counted as 4hrs 1min 13 secs, as there is a statutory grace period of atleast 10mins ...game over

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Thanks DX 100

 

haha i totally  agree with your comment about the page 20 

 

Yes I am awake and been all night w my WS

 

BUT can I point this very very very impt point please, which I am not sure if it has come to your attention

 

1. The payment machine and 6 hours and the free parking after 4.30 pm on a Saturday etc....all taken on board.

 

HOWEVER, and I cant stop myself laughing, this pay machine  he eludes to is based at The Market Shopping Centre Car park , after googling it is in CREWE.  It is not even relevant. They have put in a signage that is not even at the Merry Hill Centre which is in the West Midlands. 

 

The Merry Hill Centre is the one I went to in Dudley, west midlands. All the signages , apart from the one you elude to have the intu Merry Hill logo

 

The one you refer to is in Crewe.

I have never been to Crewe in my life lol so that signage is totally irrelevant 

 

we can play this either way:

 

1. can take up your line of argument regarding the 6 hours etc. and pretned we are also using the pay machine 

 

OR

 

2. totally dismiss it as being irrelevant, misleading , wasting the time of everyone by providing irrelevant info.

Thats what I have argued in my WS so far. That signage does not belong to inTu Merry Hill 

 

This is akin to someone being on annual leave from work between say 1.10 .2020 and 1.11.2020, and then finding out one of his/her colleagues saying,  I saw you leaving work early last week , the 15th of October 2020.

 

hello !!!, I wasnt even in the country on the 15th of October 2020 !!

 

essentially thats what the claimant has done . The signage on page 20 doesnt even belong to the shopping centre I went to

 

I will log out and carry on with th WS :) 

 

Thanks again :)  :) 

 

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This is a draft of my WS

 

By no means final

 

Negatives:

 

doesnt follow smoothly 

 

long winded

 

not much referene to cases except Beavis

 

I have tried to attach appendied but failed miserably, but I may not need them

 

The appendix are essentially:

 

 IPC COP example of a contract between landowner and a PPC

 

IPC COP re entrance signages

 

IPC COD re sanctions on members who dont comply

 

JPEG of the erected signage showing that its back is to the entrance of the car park hence not in immediate view

 

JPEG of a receipt from 16.1.2021 ( yesterday) proving I went there and had a look at the signages

 

Not really sure if the appendices will make much difference en my defence

 

Please make any constructive comments etc..

 

I will have a look at the many links  FTM Dave kindly provided. I haven't in detail because bene typing for the last 7 hours 

 

Anyhow Thanks All

WS redacted-merged.pdf

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  • dx100uk changed the title to Bank Park ANPR PCN Claimform - Blue Car Park 2 Merry Hill Brierley DY5 1QX

and why did i not see:frusty: that...

so back to what dave said, you went in and out of that car park atleast twice?

but ofcourse you never paid anything anyway?

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Hello Dx100

 

Its OK lol for you not seeing that point, but can we use the fact that they have filed irrelevant evidence to our advantage?

 

Its over 1.5 yeas ago but from my recollection , as the site is vast, ( I even visited it yesterday !!!!), in order to visit some shops, like Homesense, which is a fair distance  from the blue car park park,  rather than keeping the car in one spot and walking all the way to the distant shops, its far easier to drive and re-park at a new site, which as I recollect is what I did, but cant give exact times. I must have returned at some point to the Blue car park to pick up my partner as she does like to spend long hours  in  shops, :). To be 100% truthful, I cant remember the exact time of  the initial exit and re-entries  into the blue car park, so I feel we may have better grounds homing in on the numerous signages they have included some which dont t even have times restrictions for customers, such as the signages on ages 14 and 17, where the only restriction on the later is 2 hours maximum stay for STAFF only

 

As Dave eluded to in post #26, I feel the signages, double recovery and locus standi are the points that perhaps we should home on, because I would be a bit worried about the double dipping being the main one as i truthfully cant remember my exact activities and journeys within the shipping complex car prks on that day 100%.

 

I am getting nervous as my WS is a bit long winded and very clearly that of a lay man , with not many 'test cases' being brought to the judges attention, purely because I only received the claimants WS on FRIDAY 15th Jan 2021 by email at 1.45 pm .

 

With a bit more time, I would be more relaxed nd ben able to read through many other cases much more thoroughyl but am a bit worried

 

 

 

 

Yes, there is no monetary fees involved at  merry Hill so correct never paid them  a penny 

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it appears to me looking on googleearth each park park has its own ANPR system.(their poc states Blue 3)

it would be unthinkable that you would have left the car there and walked everywhere.

you must have as you say, which is good evidence, that you left the wife there and came back and also drove around to differing shops too in differing carparks thru differing ANPR cameras.

 

this is where your bank statement for the days transactions can help you, to show that day you/mrs paid several shops by debit card?

 

i've not got time to read yours WS yet today..but you are a LiP so a day or 2 later wont hurt.

beack to my question, you answer in ambiguous...do you have to pay there to park at all and did you pay?

or is the whole area free until you hit a time limit? 

 

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Thankyou Dx100

 

The car park in question is FREE. Nobody has to pay any parking fees. I DID NOT pay any parking fees.

 

I hope that clarifies that matter.

 

 

 

 

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I have a few transactions on my Bank statement dated 17th June 2019 ( 15th was a Saturday, so on my Bank statements, the actual transaction shows up on the 17th ( Monday).

 

There are a few transactions on My bank statements which appear wwith the date 17th June 2019

 

1. Sainsbury transaction-   

2. B&M

3. The Range

4. Macdonalds

5. Costa Coffee

6. Gelato Divino 

7, Nandos

 

I have to wait and ask my ex partner ( she is at work, I have asked her but she is at work over the weekend)

 

 

 

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and all those are within that merry hill complex great

no need for anything more then.

 

so i cant see anywhere on their signs that says max 4hrs, other than in their WS

but we'll assume it must be.

 

so... if you were to plot where each shop is using their signs map

i bet several are no where near C3 so you must have driven around.

 

classic double dipping 

 

i would also put in what i have discovered (using the wrong machine contract) pointing to the fact that its the wrong car park, (poss WS admin mistake) but pointing too even if its not a case of double dipping, then you still didnt exceed 4hrs as its free after 4.30PM, + minimum 10mins to read sighs etc which is part of their Gov' bodies rules

 

it might also be wise to remove most of the kitchen sink your WS must be filled with, i don't like the idea of that 35 para defence and they keeping it all in a WS, a short to the point WS might prove to the judge you have obviously now done your homework!! rather than following crap on the internet 

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Share on other sites

Thankyou Dx100 

You are wesome 

 

'and all those are within that merry hill complex great

no need for anything more then.'

 

My Reply: 

 

All these transactions belong to retailers who trade at Merry  Hill. Hand on heart, the bank statement doesnt specify for every transaction if its the branch at Merry Hill or not. The Nandos transaction does specify Merry Hill on the bank statement, but MacDonalds, BM , Costa..etc transactions on my bank statements dont specifically show whether  it was at the branches located at merry Hill or not

 

'so i cant see anywhere on their signs that says max 4hrs, other than in their WS

but we'll assume it must be'

 

My Reply:

 

The only signage with the 4 hour overstay period is on page 15 of Exhibit 2 of the claimant WS, so there is one out of the 8 signages showing that 4 hour limit

'

so... if you were to plot where each shop is using their signs map

i bet several are no where near C3 so you must have driven around'

 

My Reply: 

 

totally agree although need a magnifying glass to read their map lol

 

'might prove to the judge you have obviously now done your homework!! rather than following crap on the internet '

 

My Reply: 

 

But I actually haven't followed anything on the internet. This was all written based on my logical deduction. For example, I think I am reasonable in stating in my WS that the Claimant has just supplied at least 8 signages and this appears more like a widely used template for this site that they use rather than specifically just supplying the signage in relation to the contravention ie the 4 hour maximum overstay. Is it not reasonable to state in the defence WS that the Defendant finds this confusing as he is not sure to which of the 8 signages the claimant is referring to, especially where some of them dont have a maximum time period on them

 

I have a question please about Planning permission

 

Is it the managing company , in this case Intu management limited which mages the Merry Hill centre that needs to apply for permission to erect the parking signages and ANPR or is it the parking company Bank Park which has to apply to the planning and town authorities

 

In effect, should it be specifically  the PPC who applies for these kind of permissions from the relevant authorities?

 

https://www5.dudley.gov.uk/swiftlg/apas/run/wphappcriteria.display?paSearchKey=2099431

 

https://www5.dudley.gov.uk/swiftlg/apas/run/WPHAPPCRITERIA

 

I have done this search on the dudley coucil site for the relevant post code and left the date fields empty.

 

I have looked through all the 4 pages that the search result yields and see no proof that the PPC has ever made an application

 

Im sorry I am panicking now.

 

I am reading through some successful cases and defence statements and am very impressed by them. Mines is no where as good and as Dx 100 is of 35 paras. 

 

I have my points made in a meticulous way but very disorganized and disjointed . Non eare from the internet. they are all my logical deductions. For example, the NTK charge is £90 yet in the Claimant WS para 23iii, they mention £100. Is tn that by its own virtue confusing to the defendant? If I did owe them, which I dont then, is it £90 ? £ 100. Im trying to make the point to the court that they are very inconsistent. 

 

I just dont know how to word mine to make it as concise. 

 

Please help if you suggest how to make it more concise. 

 

I havent used enough test cases because without knowing the cases in detail i dont an to say too much in case it is actually used not in my favour but to my detriment

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I agree with dx.  When I said to chuck in the kitchen sink, I meant in the sense of including as many reasons as possible to scupper their claim.  You can be sure that Bank Park will send pages and pages of tripe.  If you counter all this succinctly, I'm sure the judge will appreciate it.

 

So drop paragraphs 3, 7, 9, 14, 15, 17, 20, 27, 32, 33, 36, 37.

 

Lay it on thick in paragraph 6.  Add "The Defendant has examined Dudley Council planning portal and can find no trace of planning permission being granted.  Lack of planning permission is a criminal offence and makes it impossible for the Defendant to have entered into a contract with the Claimant.

 

In paragraph 23, after "The Market Shopping Centre", add "in Crewe, 57 miles away".

 

I like your headings, making it clear to the judge the points you are arguing.  However, change "Multiple visits/benefits of free parking to Merry Hill" to simply "Multiple visits", and change "The fine" to "The parking charge".

 

In general I think you need to be more succinct and put the most important points first.  For example, in the section on signage, lay it on thick that any mention of parking charges are deliberately hidden in tiny print right at the bottom of a long list of T&Cs, and that the signs are small and erected well over head height.

 

In the part about multiple visits, quote some of the shops you visited and where you parked, and include the receipts/bank statements as exhibits.

We could do with some help from you.

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Thankyou Dave. Really most obliged :)

 

Thankyou.

 

I am reading through the links you posted on previous cases and reading through all the previous defence WS to see how I can perhaps make mine more concise and bried.. 

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I don't think you have to do a massive amount of work now if you cut out those repetitive paragraphs.  The general way you've structured the WS is superb with the various, clear sections.  You've used your own words, rather than legalese, which is fine. 

 

You can be sure Bank Park will send an encyclopedia of bilge about what a great job they do and how important their industry is, all irrelevant to the claim, and all guaranteed to annoy the judge.

 

Just in bits about signage and double dipping sometimes you go into too much detail and "you can't see the wood for the trees".  Try to cut down the number of words and put the most relevant bits to scuppering the fleecers' case first.

We could do with some help from you.

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Thanks Dave

 

'In paragraph 23, after "The Market Shopping Centre", add "in Crewe, 57 miles away".'

 

My Reply:

 

Thanks Dave, but are you sure its para 23. Did you mean Para 12 ?

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Indeed, paragraph 12.  Apologies!  Don't know how that happened.

We could do with some help from you.

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Dave, para 3 relates to my residential/post al address address.

 

When the contravention occured on the 15th June 2019, I had just moved from Cheltneham to Gloucester. My driving license had not been updated to Gloucester at the time. In addition the Gloucester address was not reliable because the mail isnt delivered specifically to my flat int eh complex, but its all left downstairs  with no pigeon holes etc..

 

So when I posted my initial defence a long time ago using private parking appeals to help me,  I made it clear that I live now in Gloucester, but because the postal delivery is not at best reliable, any mail sent to my old address in Cheltenham ( which is what the PPC have) should be re directed to my relatives address in London.

 

My point in Para 3, is to correct that and make it clear now to all parties, the claimant and court that I wish now to use my current residential address , because if they send anything to my old address in Cheltenham, I wont receive it. Hence I want to inform everyone of an address update.  So as the hearing isnt till April i dint want any post to be sent to my old address in Cheltenham m anymore.

 

Whats the best way to make that clear to every party involved in this case, please , if I was to delete para 3?

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I cant see why they are managing parking at all if 1st 4 hrs is free??

 

how are they making any money on this site?

why are they even there?

 

Everything there from them is new from 2019 i bet they were not the ppc before..so who was the previous ppc??

 

as a business model the whole thing makes no sense to me.

why have they shelled out on numerous signs multiple anpr systems ... 

 

Why am i saying all the above..it points to them not wanting to get planning permission for everything..dont have it!!

 

Ftm im out with sheep and tess the dog all day till very late..get up on planning website find if they have it..i bet not

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Andy, point taken about the address, but the judge on the day won't give a damn about where you live and I was trying to cut down on irrelevant content.

 

Cut out paragraph 3.

 

Simply e-mail the court and tell them of your change of address.  As you have to post the WS to the fleecers' solicitors tomorrow, include a separate letter informing them of the new address.  While you're in the post office, invest in another 2nd class stamp and inform Bank Park too.  Get free Certificates of Postling for both letters.

 

I take it that, even though you've moved, you're OK with the case going ahead in the same court?  The hearing will probably be on-line anyway.

We could do with some help from you.

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Thanks DX100

 

I cant see why they are managing parking at all if 1st 4 hrs is free??

 

My Reply:

 

Merry Hill has 7 car parks according to their website. 

 

They are all free but the blue car park is subject to time restrictions, meaning the customer has the benefit of free parking for upto 4 hours.

 

Anything over 4 hours in that Blue car park, the motorist will receive a parking charge notice.

 

I am not sure therefore how they make money

 

 

 

get up on planning website find if they have it..i bet not

 

My reply:

 

I have searched the Dudley borough council online search platform for the post code DY5 1QX and looked through all the results for planning permissions without even entering a date range. So far nothin. 

 

By the way, if they did have permission would it be them who would have been the applicants for the permission or the management company in charge of the overall management of the whole complex?

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Enjoy your walk dx.  I have the day free so can keep popping in here.

 

The OP has checked for PP and found nothing.

We could do with some help from you.

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  • Andyorch changed the title to Bank Park ANPR PCN Claimform - Blue Car Park 2 Merry Hill Brierley DY5 1QX - *** Claim Dismissed ***

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