Hermes - destroyed item as it was "damaged"- **Judgment for Conversion of destroyed item. **WON**

[hellothere124]

Hello,

Sadly I am have also fallen foul of hermes and they have supposedly "destroyed" my Gucci bag (sold for £650) and have ignored my request for photo evidence of this damage and also ignored my request for them to post the "damaged parcel" back to me. I also saw my Gucci bag recently on a second hand website, very likely to be mine due to exact same condition but might not be.

 

As this was a high value item, I also have a video of me wrapping the bag really well with bubblewrap, more bubblewrap/paper to hold its place and secured in a box, so they cannot say it was not wrapped according to their requirements nor say it is a prohibited item.

 

In summary this is what happened:

 

• 24/11/20 - Ordered hermes next day delivery postage and dropped parcel off at the shop.
• 25/11/20 @ 13:02 - parcel due to be delivered between 14:00 - 16:00
• (same day) @ 14:31 - status is "damaged not delivered".
• 25/11/20 - Packlink confirmed Hermes says it is "lost" and asked me to do a lost claim form, to which I challenged it as the status says "damaged not delivered". Packlink says they have requested hermes for photo evidence of the damage. I eventually completed the claim form to progress things whilst I wait.
• 27/11/20 - Tracking says "resolved" and i contacted Packlink whom confirmed that hermes said "The courier has returned the parcel to the depot, please allow a further 48hrs for tracking to be updated as to whereabouts of the parcel and the severity of damage". They also asked for another 48 hrs to "investigate".
• 27/11/20 - contacted eBay for alternative advice and they told me to make a claim with hermes 
• 28/11/20 - chased again but no response and keeps pushing me to provide photos for the lost claim.
• 01/12/20 - > 48 hrs later - still taking a while for them to confirm and they have provided the £25 compensation plus postage. I asked to file a complaint and they provided the details. 

 

I am ready to take this to small claims and from reading the similar threads out there, this is what i have devised - let me know if I need to add lines from the Consumer Rights Act.

Should I also address this to the CEO?

 

Quote

 

Dear Sir or Madam
 
Parcel ID: 
Enquiry ref:
 
On 24 November 2020 I purchased your next day delivery service to send a parcel sold on eBay.

On 25 November 2020 (next day), the parcel was due to be delivered by the courier between 14:00-16:00 at 13:02.
At 14:31, the parcel was stated as “damaged not delivered”. 
 

Between 25 November to 4 December 2020, there were several exchanges where I asked for photo evidence of the damage and for the item to be posted back to me. You repeatedly ignored my request and my queries on what happened, and kept pushing that the parcel has now been destroyed at the warehouse. There were no results provided from your investigation.

 

To further add, the item was well-wrapped, and I have video evidence of this to prove it met your stringent requirements and was not a prohibited item.
I have also been repeatedly denied the right to escalate/ make a formal complaint to Hermes.
 
The contents of my parcel were valued at £650 plus £5.78 delivery plus compensation requested for the distress is £50.
 
I hereby inform you, that unless you reimburse me the abovementioned amounts within 14 days, I shall issue a claim in the County court to recover this money from you, plus interest without any further notice.

You have not only damaged my property but also destroyed my property without permission. This evidences a clear breach of customer contract due to a lack of due care and diligence with my property, when delivering your service.
 
Yours faithfully
 

 

 

[dx100uk]

PackLink & Hermes- County Court claim - Postal and Delivery Services - Consumer Action Group

[BankFodder]

Generally speaking a very familiar story although this business of destroying people's goods is relatively new and we have only been getting reports this in the past two or three months.

You will certainly have to begin a small claim in the County Court to get your money back on this. This seems to be the way that goes and it suggests to me that by and large Hermes are getting away with so many of these claims, that they still think that it is worth their while spending the extra money producing a general deterrent and resisting the few people who are actually prepared to face them out by forcing them to issue County Court claims.

Of course if thousands more people started issuing claims, Hermes would have to rethink their policy because it wouldn't be worth their while forcing things into court all the time.

So you used Packlink to send an item worth £650 – a Gucci bag
Hermes was chosen, of course, because Packlink and Hermes are either basically the same – or they have a partnership agreement that seems to be fairly exclusive. (I wonder if anyone has experiences of Packlink dealing with any other courier company???!).

Then we get a jumble of information from Hermes but ends up that the item was damaged and so apparently they have destroyed it.
You, quite reasonably, have asked for evidence of the damage – and of course, no evidence was forthcoming – even though of course that would be the most sensible thing for Hermes to do.

What is interesting is that at one point you said that you figure that you had spotted your bag being sold on eBay. Then you didn't make any further reference to this – so please can you tell us more about it. Did you take screenshots?
I notice that in your rather extensive and over-detailed draft letter to Hermes, you have made absolutely no mention of this at all.

Hermes of course have knocked you back and you have been offered the standard £25.

Where the contents of the parcel properly declared? Was the value properly declared? And presumably you didn't buy their so called insurance/compensation cover.

 

Your letter of claim is far too detailed and you should not send it. There's no need to tell them your life story. Also you are trying to ask for £50 for distress. You won't get it. It's not worth making claims for something that you can't possibly get. You should only back winners.

However there is another idea that I have by which we might be able to improve the level of compensation you are claiming – and more than £50.

Have you read all the relevant threads on this sub- forum?

When you issue a claim, Hermes will defend.

They will defend on the following points:
that you don't have a contract with them, your contract is with Packlink.
That you didn't choose insurance cover.
They will put you to proof as to the value of the item that you are claiming for.

They will most likely say that they would be prepared to go to mediation.

So you should make sure that you have read up the various stories where the discussions of turned on those above four points.
Understand the responses to the Hermes defence points and also understand the mediation journey and the pressure that you will come under even from the mediator to reduce your claim. Understand what we have to say about that.

Please let me have your comments on what I have posted here and we will go further

[hellothere124]

Thanks for your detailed reply.

 

I do have screenshots of the bag on the secondhand designer items website – its viable as they will have been paid in cash instantly but again, 50:50 of it being mine but I’m pretty sure as it is.

 

The value £650 is the sold ebay price and from what I read in the forums, Hermes/couriers can see this when you purchase the shipping label through them.

 

I have read the following forums including the one dx100uk posted earlier and am happy to proceed:

 

https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/419960-interesting-packlink-hermes-ebay-claim-where-does-the-liability-lie-won/

https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/422236-packlinkhermes-lost-ebay-parcel-settled/

https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/422635-packlink-and-hermes-again-won-plus-costs/

https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/428137-packlink-hermes-county-court-claim/
 

I’ve attached my shorter one below but question,

should I send this to the Hermes CEO email (that’s the only one I can find online)?

 

Dear Sir/Madam

Letter of claim - Hermes tracking reference number X X X X – dated X X X

As you know, you have now reported to me that not only did you damaged my parcel and not delivered it, but you also destroyed it without my permission and without providing evidence of the damage. The parcel was sent under the above tracking number.

 

The contents of the parcel and the value (£650) were properly declared to you. Despite this you have denied any liability for the damage and loss, and therefore I am writing to let you know that unless you reimburse me the value of the parcel in full and within 14 days, I shall be issuing a claim in the County Court for the full amount plus interest and without any further notice.

Yours faithfully

 

[BankFodder]

First of all I think you should slow down and be in less of a hurry to send your letter of claim.

I think that you should engage with us to let you help you get all your ducks in a row. There is a massive hurry and if you respond promptly to our questions what we post here then you can certainly get a letter of claim out the door by the weekend.

I would be interested to know more about the eBay sale. Maybe you could post up some pictures of the bag when you had it and also some pictures of the bag which you found on eBay and which you think might be yours.

I suggested to you in my last post that there could be another way of obtaining a bit more compensation.
I'm thinking about adding a possible claim for trespass/conversion. https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1977/32

 

It would be helpful if you could tell us how you came into possession of this bag. Was it a personal item of yours which you are selling or did you acquire it simply to sell it?

Also, you had an exchange with Hermes about the bag in which they told you that it was damaged and then destroyed.

Please could you post up that exchange in scanned multipage single file PDF format.

 

[BankFodder]

Also, presumably you sold the bag and then had to reimburse the purchaser – is this correct?

You will probably have to provide evidence of all of this.

[hellothere124]

Apologies for my hastiness – am just keen to get this started but appreciate I need to think this through more and provide you with the full story.

I will email you the following privately by midday:

• Photos of my bag
• Screenshot of the website with my bag when it was first listed (it’s not ebay)
• My exchange with Packlink who contacted Hermes on my behalf and provided quotes from them

Yes, this item was a personal item that I bought from Gucci this year and I just didn’t want anymore. I am registered with them and can get proof of purchase (as I had sent the receipt with the parcel as well).

I did query the selling website about the bag and they have asked for more information as expected. I have left this option for now as I believe my focus should be with Hermes, but should this also be explored?

 

Yes, I did also have to reimburse the buyer and have evidence of this too. I reimbursed them once I was satisfied it was nothing to do with the buyer and was an issue direct with Hermes.

 

The link to torts law makes a very interesting read and is super helpful – so thank you. I was hopeful there was something in the law against “destroying” other people’s property whilst in their possession, as that cannot be just! There are no H&S issues they could pull out that they could with electrical items for instance, so this sounds pretty solid to me and could become a much bigger case for compensation? Fascinating.

 

Hermes had no right to supposedly “destroy” the bag, whilst they had also supposedly “damaged” it and could not deliver it - it was already with the courier for delivery that day – I mean, if it was that “damaged”, surely, they wouldn’t have given it to the courier to deliver?

I can somehow reason if my item was electronic due to H&S issues, but it was simply a handbag that was very well packed (video evidence), and then to see it on a selling website 2 weeks or so later just made me see red! And the fact that I queried this with Packlink several times where they passed my request onto Hermes (or at least I trusted they did) for photo evidence of the damage and to return the “damaged” bag to me. Both requests were completely ignored and they kept pushing for me to accept my bag is lost when it isn’t?

[BankFodder]

I have the pictures – and I've responded to you by email but please could you post the exchange that you had up on this thread.

Have you actually made a complaint against Hermes directly?

[hellothere124]

Thanks.

I've had quite a few exchanges with Packlink on behalf of Hermes (I tried to contact Hermes direct but they told me to only go through Packlink).

I've highlighted the key points/quotes from Hermes and redacted the rest.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Just one more

 

audittrail.pdf

[BankFodder]

Okay. Thank you for this.

My own preference would be to take this a little more steadily and to make a complaint to Hermes directly so that you get something from them which knocks you back. Ideally, they would confirm that the item was damaged – although I suspect that they will simply say that it has been lost.

You could send a letter of claim straightaway and then begin an action in 14 days if you want. We will help you. On the other hand, you could send Hermes an SAR as well as starting a complaint against them to see what you get.

I think it would be worth sending Hermes an SAR anyway – and I suggest that you do that immediately.

If you decide to begin a claim against Hermes then you should do that immediately but make it completely separate from the SAR so that they don't get too confused about what you are doing.

If you prefer simply to send the letter of claim and then begin the action, send Hermes the SAR anyway and we will help you prepare a letter of claim.

On the information which you have received from Packlink, you can either sue Hermes for a breach of contract and their negligence or else you can sue them in the tort of conversion under the 1977 act for the value of your item plus a request for a discretionary amount of damages for the trespass which they have committed and I would suggest that you keep that to a fairly modest amount, say, maximum of £100 – in the discretion of the court.

 

Frankly if you went for this latter option then I would prefer to hear it directly from Hermes that they have damaged the item and destroyed it. Although there have been lots of allegations and initial claims even by Hermes the items have been damaged and then destroyed, when it comes to defences, they always simply say that it was lost.

If you are prepared to send an SAR and then wait a while for that to be dealt with, you might then find that there is a conversation in which they told Packlink that it was damaged. If you discovered that in a disclosure then I think that a court action for conversion/trespass would be slamdunk.

Another possibility would be to sue for breach of contract caused by their negligence and in the alternative sue for conversion.

I'm sorry to give you so many possibilities but from our point of view, suing for conversion presents a very tempting experiment – but as I've said, it would be nice to get it confirmed in their own conversation.

I more suspicious about the second hand conversations we get from Packlink – and it really makes me wonder whether they really contact Hermes and whether Hermes really given the true story or just feed them a line.

Whatever you do, send Hermes the SAR straightaway. It's free, there's nothing to lose and so you may as well get going

 

[hellothere124]

Just to clarify, is the SAR for them to provide further details about my parcel and what's happened to it?

 

Also, the buyer did send me a lot of screenshots of her comms with Hermes and they confirmed the parcel is damaged to her (see first pic).

My tracking on ebay also confirmed the parcel is "damaged beyond repair" and they held onto it (see attached). There is no specific mention of "disposing it" by Hermes and it was only referenced by Packlink that it would be a resulting action. I will try to send a SAR and complaint separately but the only email I have is of the CEO? I can get through to them otherwise..

 

Definitely a lot to think about but very well considered. As you say, I will still send the SAR and raise a separate complaint to Hermes, then give some time before sending the letter of claim? Let me know if the below helps my case at all.

 

 

 

 

emails.pdf

[BankFodder]

I'm sorry but the screenshots you have posted above are not legible – and especially on a small screen. This is why we ask you to put things up in PDF format

[BankFodder]

If your screenshots – which are really not easy to read – really do confirm from various sources that Hermes have said that the item is damaged, then probably you don't need to bring a complaint. You could go ahead and send the letter of claim.

In that case, you need to decide whether you think you would like to try for the trespass/conversion option – and probably jointly with the breach of contract.

It would certainly be very interesting to see what Hermes reactions are

[BankFodder]

I suggest something broadly like this:

Although I suggest that you should have sent off your SAR by now – and that you send this letter of claim on Monday, 4 January.

Hermes routinely send an acknowledgement giving them an extra 14 days to respond – a total of 28 days. That means that by the time it comes for you to issue the claim you should have an idea of whether or not they going to make a disclosure.

 

Quote

Dear Sir/Mdm

 

Letter of Claim – Your Tracking Number XXX

 

As you know, I used your services to deliver a parcel containing a Gucci bag value £XXX's to an address in the United Kingdom.

I understand from Packlink and also from the intended recipient of the parcel that you damaged it and that you decided to destroy it.

Your contractual obligations were to deliver my property safely to the intended recipient. Furthermore, in destroying my property who acted without consent and furthermore, although I have asked for evidence of the damage caused to the parcel, you have not provided any.

Not only have you breached your contract with me by failing to deliver my parcel, you have also dealt with my property in an unauthorised way by damaging it to your own negligence and then proceeding to destroy it without any reference to me.

This is my notice to you that I'm proposing to sue you for the value of my property – £XXX and additionally I am proposing to invite the court to award me an additional sum for your conversion to my property by usurping my own rights as owner, of an additional sum of £XXX subject to the discretion of the court.

If I do not receive a reimbursement of £XXX within 14 days then I shall sue you in the County Court and without any further notice.

Yours faithfully

 

 

Make sure that this is correct and let us know if you feel that there is anything which needs to be added

[hellothere124]

Thanks so much for this!

I sent the SAR last night via email and also through their new portal that they ask you to do now. 

I will wait till Monday 4th to post the letter of claim. Should I send this tracked postage?

 

The letter is spot on! I have started drafting the POC and saw from another thread that someone asked for £50 compensation regarding the SAR, should I also do this? I have stuck to the £100 compensation you mentioned earlier re: conversion of property. So total I would be seeking £800? That would give me more leeway in negotiation.

 

I'll share the POC with you on Monday when I've posted the letter.

 

 

[BankFodder]

You can only ask for compensation in respect of the SAR, if they have not complied with a statutory duty – and if as a result of their failure to comply it has caused you distress.

[hellothere124]

Happy New Year!

 

Update on this:

• Have posted the letter of claim on 6th Jan
• Signed up to Money Claim
• Still not heard back on the SAR but they do have until 26th Jan to respond (sent 29/12)

 

I've drafted the below POC incl the SAR breach assuming they don't respond? Can take out though for now.

 

Tracking reference: X X X X. Defendant courier company undertook to deliver claimant's Gucci bag value £650 to an address in the UK. Defendants damaged the parcel through their negligent handling and destroyed it without permission. Evidence was not provided of the damage when requested by the claimant.
The claimant seeks compensation for defendants breach of contract, negligence and conversion of property: £650 + £100 compensation for distress and inconvenience.
Data Protection: claimants served a valid request for statutory disclosure of personal data upon defendants on 29/12/2020. Defendants have not complied and are in breach of statutory duty. This is caused distress and additional difficult to the claimant who seeks compensation of £50. A complaint has been made to the Information Commissioner.
Claimant seeks £800 plus interest pursuant to s.69 County Courts act 1984
 

 

 

[BankFodder]

Thanks for the update.

I would certainly wait until the expiry of the SAR date before starting any action.

Keep us informed

[hellothere124]

Hello

 

Hermes should have responded to the claim yesterday but they have not.

Wanted to double check that I should now request judgement?

 

Thanks!

[AndyOrch]

Yes if it will allow you......select forthwith payment.

[hellothere124]

How long should I wait before enforcing a judgement? 

It has been a week but do I need wait 2 weeks or a 1 month?

There doesn't seem to be a set guideline but system does allow me to request a warrant now, which I'm tempted to do today.

 

Also, since they didn't respond to at all, am I likely to receive the payment?

Doesn't seem a common move from Hermes according to the threads so not sure if I'm in a worse or better position with this..

 

 

[BankFodder]

You have a judgement against Hermes? When was it granted? You should apply for execution of the judgement immediately. You shouldn't even be asking us.

One thing though – you should check that you have actually serve the papers on a real physical address.

We have had one case recently against virgin where we discovered that the papers have been served on a postcode – but it was actually a redirection address and that there was no physical address which could be visited by bailiffs.

What address did you use for the claim?

[hellothere124]

It was granted on 17th Feb and i requested to their Leeds address below:

 

Hermes UK

Capitol House

1 Capitol Close Morley

LEEDS

LS27 0WH

 

This does look like the correct Hermes UK office address though?

[BankFodder]

It looks good. Check that you can find the physical address using Google and then apply for the warrant.

[hellothere124]

So 2 days following the warrant issue.. EVRi finally contacted me to arrange payment and said they had not received my prior claim letters hence the lack of response? But they received this one though didn’t they before the bailiffs are in!

 

Am incredibly pleased and thankful to CAG! I didn’t know this great  community would be what I find back in Dec from a quick search!
Really appreciate the time taken to help me on this and I wouldn’t have a clue without it! I have just donated.

Its forums like these that really makes a difference to society, so we need to keep it going!

 

Key points to note:

• EVRi Parcelnet Limited (UK entity and HQ in Leeds - address to this)
• Don’t use packlink for high value items (it links ebay details to the courier selected)
• Never use EVRi for high value items EVER!