Speeding fine with no site details available - Opened mail too late to submit nomination

[Kyosanto]

Hello,

 

I have received a speeding fine from Lincolnshire police for doing 35mph in a 30mph zone, back in late September.

 

This is a place where police vans often stakeout drivers as it's located just on the outskirts of town where the speed limit changes abruptly from 60, to 40, then 30 within 100 yards. (absolute jerks...) Even knowing this didn't help me not get caught 

 

As soon as I opened the letter I went online to check the details, and they are indeed very blurry pictures of me. However the site details are unavailable. (Presumably as this was taken from a van, rather than a fixed camera).

The pictures themselves feature no landmarks whatsoever, there are some road markings which I personally havn't been able to pin on google maps, and are only visible in the background.

 

I only opened the police letter today, when the original was sent on the 30th September. The reason for this is the letter had a "To the Company Secretary" in the header so I had dismissed it as commercial mail.... I also received a reminder dated Nov 9th which I opened at the same time.

 

The "nomination form" is unavailable to complete online as the date has expired. I'm getting worried that I'm going to get a court summons or a £100 fine now instead of the awareness course. (I didn't commit other offences within the last 5 years).

 

So my questions are as follows:

• Is the lack of site details and clear landmarks in the pictures any grounds for appeal? I'm going to be honest and say that this was very most probably in the 30mph zone, but it would be nice to be able to verify, which I cannot do atm.
• Regardless of the above, what is my best course of action now that I've fudged up the time limit to fill the form details in time. Should I send an email to the Lincs police traffic process team, mail the form back, do nothing and await further letters?

 

Thank you in advance for any help. 

 

 

Unrelated P.S. Exactly a year ago on the 24th of December, I received a parking fine. My thoughts always with Lincs police every Xmas

 

 

[dx100uk]

street lamps should give it away.

[Kyosanto]

This is the only picture that has the street on it, the other pix are just closeups of the driver.

 

[Manxman in exile]

First of all, you can't have received a "speeding fine" yet unless you have already replied to them previously naming yourself as the driver, and they are now making a conditional offer of a fixed penalty.  But I don't think that is what you mean. 

 

I think you have actually received a NIP/s172 request requiring you to identify the driver of a particular vehicle at a particular location on a particular date and time.  Failure to respond within, I think, 28 days is a separate more serious offence than speeding - it's failing to identify the driver and carries six points, a heavy fine and increased insurance premiums for years.

 

But are you the registered keeper (RK) of the vehicle?  If the request was addressed to somebody like "The company secretary... " I assume you are not the RK and that a company is.  Do you happen to be the "company secretary" or similar of the RK?  (Otherwise why is a notice sent to "The Company Secretary" being delivered to your address?  Have you received another in your own name?)

 

The NIP/s172 request can only be replied to by the "person" to whom it was addressed.  If it was addressed to "The Company Secretary of ..." and you are not the company secretary of..., then it needs to be passed on to that person to be completed and returned.

 

If you are "The Company Secretary" of the RK (or are the person who runs or owns the company yourself,) or if you have a request in your own name, I think I would return the form ASAP with an accompanying letter containing a grovelling apology for your late response and hoping that the offer of a course or fixed penalty is still available.  I'd probably try emailing and 'phoning them as well to explain that it's in the post and apologising again.  (Of course, you can only name yourself if you were the driver).

 

The issue about the photos is almost certainly irrelevant.  So long as you can identify the driver (or know who it was) they don't even need to give you any photos at this stage so long as the NIP/s172 request makes clear the location, date and time.  At this stage they are only asking who the driver was - they are not yet asking you to admit to speeding so the question as to what the limit was is irrelevant.

 

If you are unlucky enough to end up getting charged with BOTH speeding and failure to identify the driver, come back for more advice.

 

Just to add - I am no expert in this field but the above is what I would do in your position others may have better advice for you.  There are other posters here - Man in the Middle is one - who are more expert than me with speeding offences.  See what they advise.

 

Also, your situation might be a little more complicated than ususal because you have received a NIP/s172 addressed to the company secretary...  Those complications can't be clarified until you explain what your relationship to the company is and who the company secretary is.  (eg depending who the RK is, the NIP/s172 may be out of time)

 

 

Edited December 24, 2020 by Manxman in exile
clarification

[Manxman in exile]

1 hour ago, Kyosanto said:

Unrelated P.S. Exactly a year ago on the 24th of December, I received a parking fine. My thoughts always with Lincs police every Xmas

 

 

Just to add - the police don't do parking fines

[Kyosanto]

Hey I'm just the RK, it's not a company car. 

 

 

The "job title" was the reason I identified the mail as spam and put it to the side.

 

Grovelling apology and posting the form sounds good for now. I'll come back if I get charged with something more serious.

 

[Manxman in exile]

Sorry - but if you are the registered keeper, why was it addressed to "The Company Secretary ..." and not to "Mr Kyosanto"? 

 

If it was addressed to "The Company Secretary ..." and you are not the company secretary, then, strictly speaking, you can't reply to it because it was not addressed to you.  (You will see somewhere in the notes on the request you have that it says only the addressee can respond).

 

So who was it actually addressed to?  And have you actually checked the vehicle's V5C to make sure that you are correctly named as the RK and that your address is correct?  (And I mean physically checked - not just assumed)

 

This might be important for you because if a company is the RK, and the company secretary has simply passed the request on to you to reply to, they can't do that because they have to reply to it naming you.  And if it is addressed to the company secretary - not you - then it is the company that commits the offence of failing to identify the driver - not you..  Do you see what I mean?

 

So why would it have been addressed to "The Company Secretary" and not to you?  What is your relationship (if any) to both the company and the company secretary?

 

(NB - this is not about whether it's a company car - it's about who is the RK and who the request was addressed to)

 

 

[Kyosanto]

Here's exactly how it was:

Quote

 

The Company Secretary (if a LTD Company)

Mr XXX Kyosanto

Address
Town

Postcode

 

 

I guess the (if a LTD Company) covers their back... Personally i just saw that and shrugged it off like I would have shrugged off a

 

His Excellency The Pope (if a member of the Clergy)

Mr XXX Kyosanto

 

I guess they are using a template that "works" for both individual and companies. What an absolutely garbage idea, hope it doesn't end up costing me dearly...

[Manxman in exile]

As you say... a garbage idea!

 

Well, if nobody else has any further advice over the Xmas days off, I guess you send it back with the grovelling apology and 'phone and email them too.

 

If you do finally end up getting charged with failure to identify the driver you can usually do a plea bargain to plead guilty to speeding if they drop the failure to identify charge.  Here you could also perhaps argue that you were confused initially by the request as you didn't think it was addressed to you personally.

 

Anyway, come back here if they charge you with anything.  If you are still in time to be offered a course or a fixed penalty I think I'd take it

[Hammy1962]

I'm always surprised by the number of people who don't open their post. I love post. It is better though if you don't dismiss it as irrelevant until you have read it.

 

How big is your pile of post, or is it a static size and you just open the oldest first and put new irrelevant post at the bottom to open in three months time.

 

H

[Man in the middle]

Manxman has got it right and I fear you may be in a bit of a pickle.

 

If the alleged offence was in late September you should have replied providing the driver's details by late October (you are given 28 days to respond).  By now there is every likelihood that proceedings have begun against you for "failing to provide the driver's details." So you need to concentrate on that rather than the speeding matter for the moment.

 

You seem to know almost precisely where this took place. How do you know that? I would imagine it is from the "Notice of Intended Prosecution" and the accompanying "Section 172" request for driver's details. If both those documents show the time and place where the offence is said to have occurred then that is the only obligation the police have. You are not entitled to any photographs at all and any you have received have been provided out of courtesy. Consequentially any deficiencies you may find with them do not help you.

 

Your suggestion to respond asap is your only realistic option at this stage but if court action has begun they are very unlikely to withdraw it. Come back and let us know what response you get.

 

 

 

 

[Kyosanto]

Thankfully they've accepted my admission without an argument, and have sent me an offer for the edutainment course, which I need to complete within 4 months of the infraction. Given that's not much time and given your above answers contesting the imprecise location doesn't seem like an option, I will just sign up immediately without trying to contest this further.

 

Also this time they addressed me normally 

 

To reply to the slightly patronizing comment above about "ppl nowadays not opening post", please note that unlike you I do not love post. It is unreliable and murders trees. I deal with my bills electronically. Most of the post I get are unsolicited ads. However I will be more careful in the future with posts that aren't immediately identifiable as spam...

[Manxman in exile]

When given the choice I actually stipulate that I always want to be communicated with by snail mail rather than email or text (I hardly ever check them) but, perversely, I'm very bad at opening my mail.  I live in constant dread of missing a NIP or something!