PCMUK Ltd - ANPR PCN now PAPLOC- St Michaels Retail Park, Basingstoke ***Cancelled by landowner***

[theSC0TT]

Good evening all,

 

I received a parking charge from PCN UK Ltd whilst parking in St Michaels Retail Park in Basingstoke in September for over staying the 30 minute maximum stay. This has now been passed on to Trace Debt Recovery UK Limited with a demand that I pay the total fee of £160.00

 

I have appealed to PCN, and they have rejected it, with a copy and paste jobby that many people have had.

A lot of people got caught out with this parking restriction in the same time I did to which an article in the local newspaper was published.

 

I have contacted the land owners of the car park, to be passed to "guy in charge" who is miraculously "out of office, busy with clients, on leave" when I state what my call is regarding. I've rang 6 times and this is the same song and dance everytime.

 

My grounds for appealing, without copy and pasting the entire email are:

 

• The signage isn't prominent enough. Surely 10's of motorists aren't blind and that the signage isn't fit for use.
• I returned after a getting the letter. A4 pieces of paper had been put up stating "PCN CHARGES IN THIS AREA. 30 MINS MAX STAY." I had assumed this was another person that had got a fine and was trying to warn the public. I rang the restaurant, to which this car park is directly outside, to find out it was members of staff that had put up the signs warning customers!
• I returned a second time, to find a brand new sign had been erected at the entrance of the car park clearly stating the parking restriction. There's no missing this new sign. This is what should've been in place to begin with. I told PCN that I had assumed their decision to erect a new sign was an admission that previous signage wasn't fit for purpose.

 

That's the meat of the appeal I sent. They rejected it and now I'm dealing with the initial steps of a Debt Recovery Agency. Any advice on where we go from here?

 

Thanks in advance ladies and gents,

 

Scott

[dx100uk]

please complete this:

Have you received a Parking Ticket? - Private Land Parking Enforcement - Consumer Action Group

 

and scan to ONE multipage PDF all the comms you have bothsides of each letter inc your appeal.

read our upload guide carefully.

 

shame you appealed as you've shot yourself in the foot by revealing who was driving and removed any protection you had under POFA 2012.

 

the council when granting the org planning perm would never have granted a 30min min stay, more like 2-3hrs.

and no-one can change that bar the council.

one last point . it is not a FINE

it's a speculative invoice.

 

was this ANPR or windscreen ticket?

 

[theSC0TT]

It was an ANPR. They took  a picture and sent it on the invoice. 

 

[dx100uk]

should be 2!

 

get the stuff in my post up please

 

dx

 

[theSC0TT]

1 Date of the infringement 26/09/2020
 

2 Date on the NTK [this must have been received within 14 days from the 'offence' date] 02/10/2020

 

3 Date received 05/10/2020
 

4 Does the NTK mention schedule 4 of The Protections of Freedoms Act 2012? [Y/N?] Yes
 

5 Is there any photographic evidence of the event? Yes
 

6 Have you appealed? [Y]

I parked in this specific car park as I was booked in for a meal with my partner at the Nandos directly in front of it. At no point did we see the signage stating it was a 30 minute maximum stay.

 

I'm appealing this ticket for 3 reasons:

1 - The signage isn't clear enough to draw attention to it from the general public. The most important information on the sign is that it's a 30 minute maximum stay, however this isn't the largest font used. If you wanted to draw attention to this important information, then surely you'd make it the largest font on the sign so you people are aware. I felt a hint of entrapment putting convenient parking spaces outside restaurants mingled in with the free parking spaces of the rest of the retail park. Having visited this retail park numerous times and parking in the free bays, why would I check for signage about maximum stays. You're not promoting custom to the local businesses by enforcing this parking charge.

 

2 - After receiving the parking charge notice, I went back to the car park to see the sign for myself. When I got there, laminated pieces of A4 paper are stuck to the lamp posts stating "BEWARE NPC FINES 30MIN MAX STAY". I can only assume this is another member of the public that has been stung by this unfair charge doing YOUR job of warning us of the 30 minute maximum stay. Why should it be our job to manage your parking spaces to avoid getting unfair fines? If other members of the public have gone to this effort to warn everyone else, I can only assume they didn't notice the signs as well. A trend is appearing here, suggesting your signs aren't fit for purpose.

 

3 - I decided to return to the car park a 2nd time to keep up to date with what was happening. When I returned, I noticed a brand spanking new sign had been erected, with fresh concrete at it's base, clearly stating the 30 minute maximum stay. THIS should have been in place at the start. I interpret your decision to erect a new sign as admission the original signage wasn't fit for purpose. In summary, I will not be paying this parking charge notice for the points listed above. I've visited this retail park countless times over the years and have never parked in the section I've received this parking charge for, so being accustom to the parking being free, why would

 

I look for signage stating otherwise? If the signage was obvious enough, I would 100% have parked in the free parking spaces, but it wasn't and here we are. I also know the parking lot you manage was not at capacity, so don't believe you lost any revenue from my presence and that no members of the public were hindered through my actions. There is no victim in this case, only poor management of a parking lot.

 

Have you had a response? [Y] Misplaced letter basically stating their signage is fine and the charge still stands.

 

7 Who is the parking company? Parking Control Management UK Ltd.

 

8. Where exactly [carpark name and town] St Michaels Retail Park, Basingstoke.

 

[FTMDave]

I see the company is Parking Control Management UK Ltd.  I've changed the thread title to show this.

 

As long as you phone, you'll get nowhere with the landowner.  Send a snail mail letter with a free Certificate of Posting from the post office, and tell them if they don't get off their big fat backsides and act within 14 days, in case of future legal action you will add them as a third party to the claim.  Demand they call the fleecers off.

 

Did you get photos of the signs the staff put up and the new sign?  If not, at least note down the dates of the two events.

 

How about e-mailing the restaurant and asking for confirmation of what was said on the phone?  The problem with all this phoning is you have no proof if this ever went to court (although that is way, way down the line).

 

Although you made a mistake when appealing, the silver lining is that you have brought up all the evidence about their carp signage.

 

Don't worry about this £70 "increase" from the morons Trace.  This is standard practise to try to put the frighteners on from this vile industry.  It's not Trace's debt so they have no powers whatsoever to do anything.  It's hot air from paper tigers.  Read dx's signature!

[theSC0TT]

The sign is jam packed full of information. Even if it caught the eye, which it didn't, you'd have to spend a considerable amount of time deciphering the information.

 

I mentioned above about the paper signs being posted by,

what I assumed was another member of the public.

 

I phoned the restaurant I was eating in, and they informed me it was members of staff that put the signs up to warn customers of the charges!

 

Suggests a lot of people had been getting these charges and ringing the restaurant to complain.

 

Sign Photos.pdf

[FTMDave]

Superb you got the photos!  Well done!

[theSC0TT]

Whats next?  Note this isn't the new sign - This is the original.

 

The newer sign is about 10feet tall and actually at the entrance to the car park. Hard to miss.

[FTMDave]

Twiddle your thumbs.

 

Ignore while they destroy half the Amazon with various daft letters in BIG RED LETTERING threatening that you'll be hung, drawn & quartered and if you have kids that they'll be transported to Australia, etc.

 

See if they eventually have the gonads to properly threaten you with legal action with a Letter Before Claim.  If one of these eventually arrives, come back here sharpish.

 

The great work you've done in showing their sign in the stratosphere together with the signs the restaurant staff had put up is superb, and will be very important later down the line.

 

I say "twiddle your thumbs", but any preparation work you can do during the Christmas break would be great.  Have a read of our PPC Successes thread at the top of the page to see how motorist after motorist has seen off these crooks.  Get onto the local council to see if they have planning permission for these signs (they won't, and that's a criminal offence) and what the original planning permission was (as dx says, it'll be 2-3 hours).

 

 

[dx100uk]

i have held a copy but you've left PCN ren No's etc

and bar codes on several docs.

 

hidden

[dx100uk]

and there is not 2 photos so where are you getting from that you exceeded the fake 30mins time limit?

and that is the reason for the speculative invoice?

there is no evidence of this nor that one exists on their letters, so why have they issued it?

 

dx

 

 

[theSC0TT]

I've just logged onto the online portal and they do have both pictures, time stamped of entry and exit.

Stayed 50 mins in total, still a quick visit for a meal in my opinion.

 

What avenue do you suggest I go down now?

Check planning permission to see if the council authorised a 30 min max stay?

 

I have attached planning permission that was applied to BCDC.

They granted the 30 minute maximum stay and have granted ANPR enforcement.

Short Stay Car Park Application - Drawing.pdf Short Stay Car Park Application - Approved.pdf

[dx100uk]

wow 1st time we've seen a council grant those kind of time limits.

 

dx

 

[theSC0TT]

Is there anything else I can do here? I'm more than happy ignoring the debt recovery letters until I get the Letter Before Claim, but they've got it all on their side. Only defence I have is that a lot of people got stung by this parking charge, surely we're not all blind.

[FTMDave]

Good grief, you don't mess around, do you?  Well done on digging up all this info.  I wish everyone who uses the forum was that quick out of the starting blocks!

 

Well, I was wrong about planning permission.  That's the first time we've seen a council grant 30 minutes.

 

However, you still have a lot on your side.  The reason you "overstayed" is because their signage was pants, and you can easily prove this.

 

I'm not an expert on unfair terms, but 30 minutes to eat in a restaurant is ludicrous.

 

Continue your fight with the landowner if you want, but make sure it's done in writing and with legal threats so they take you seriously. 

[theSC0TT]

When it comes to money, I'll fight tooth and nail to protect it. I earnt it and I'll be damned if I let a few days wages go without putting up a fight.

 

The problem is that this is a mini car park bolted onto a large, retail park.

Retail park consists of hundreds of spaces, which are free as long as you're shopping obviously.

 

This little car park of 20 spaces is directly outside a Nando's, Greggs and Costa.

Clearly it's existence is for people to run in and grab a take away.

 

I rang the land owner and their hands were forced to employ a parking management company by the council as people were queueing for these spaces and causing traffic to back up on the dual carriageway out on the main road.

 

I'm not complaining and fighting the system with the whinge of "all parking should be free, I'm a paying customers blah blah blah".

 

What I'm saying is if the signage was clear, and I knew it was a 30 minute maximum stay,

I'd have parked in the EMPTY, free parking spaces!

It's literally 20 steps away!

But I didn't know.

Seems very unfair.

[dx100uk]

something is not sitting right about all this....

 

a quick thought..why didn't the council, if they were SO worried about highway safety...instruct that a sign be put up explaining why?

 

 

 

[theSC0TT]

Not a clue, this is something one of the landowers said to me over the phone when I asked him.

 

He'd said they've had so many complaints recently about the exact same thing. He then pushed me higher to someone on an 0207 number, London presumably, but this guy is always "out of office", "busy with meetings", "with a client" or "on sick leave".

 

6 times I've rang and I've never spoken to the bloke. Emailed as well. Left messages with his secretary. Heard absolutely nothing from him.

 

Edit: Format. Getting the hint! No one likes a wall of text!

 

https://www.basingstokegazette.co.uk/news/18255952.landscaped-area-st-michaels-retail-park-torn-parking-spaces/

 

This is an article in the local newspaper explaining the traffic concerns I've just found. 

[FTMDave]

Well, if the landowner employed these crooks, then the landowner has the power to call them off.  It's time to stop being nice.  As you have this bloke in London's e-mail address get back to him and point out

   - you are sick & tired of him not replying to your calls & mails

   - you were a a genuine customer of a business there (attach proof)

   - you stayed 50 minutes rather than 30 minutes because you ate in and because PCM's signage was completely inadequate to inform customers, so much so that some time after your visit the local businesses stuck up their own supplemenatary signs (attach your photo) and only much later could PCM actually be bothered to stick a sign at the car park entrance

   - you demand the landowners tell PCM to cancel the ticket

   - you refuse to pay the invoice and if PCM take you to court you will add the landowner as a third party to the claim.

 

That should focus the lazy get's mind.

[theSC0TT]

Evening Andy,

 

I've been informed you're the land owner of St. Michaels Retail Park in Basingstoke and man to contact I've emailed directly, had emails with you CC'd in, rang your office and left messages with your front desk but heard nothing from you what so ever in the 2 months I've tried to establish communications.

 

The situation is as follows. I received a parking charge from PCM UK Ltd for a violation at the end of September this year. This was for overstaying the 30 minute maximum stay in the car park directly outside Costa, Greggs and Nando's. I was eating in Nando's at the time of the violation, providing business. Being a regular customer to the retail park over the years, I expected a reply to my emails at the least, however this is not the case. I have not returned and have no intentions of returning to the retail park in the future due to this incident. Having parked in the "non-restricted" section of the car park for years to provide custom to businesses in your retail park and know that, as long as I was providing custom, the parking was free, why would any local look for signage stating any restrictions. What a confusing system you have in place that you have 2 separate schemes for what an average-Joe member of the public would assume is the same car park!

 

I contacted PCM to lodge an appeal based on the grounds of signage not being fit for purpose. It is not prominent enough to catch the eye. So much so, that an article was published in the Basingstoke Gazette due to a high number of complaints they've had regarding the exact same charge I received! 

 

I even took the time to phone Nando's as, like I stated previously, I was dining in at the time and was the entire reason for my visit that evening. I asked them if they knew who had placed laminated pieces of A4 paper on the signs in the car park warning customers of this unfair practice. I was expecting it to be a local who had took it upon themselves to warn other visitors. Not the case! The MANAGER of Nando's informed me it was members of his staff that had put the signs up to warn customers and avoid them getting scammed! This is absolutely disgusting that a business has to go to these measures to avoid their customers getting ripped off. More so, on PCM's part, it's absolutely embarrassing that an A4 piece of paper taped to a lamp post has a better effect than their "signage"! The signage provided by PCM and yourself is NOT fit for purpose, case and point being the many MANY visitors that have been stung by this charge. I don't believe for a second that ALL of us are all vigilantes and believe we have a God-given right to park anywhere for free. One person, maybe, but take a look at how many fines were handed out in that time period. You've got to realise something is wrong rather than sitting there rubbing your hands together.

 

I'm demanding that you contact PCM UK Ltd and cancel this ticket. Not only have I had to deal with PCM's constant letters, they have now passed on this "debt" to Trace Debt Recovery Ltd. Giving the state of the country due to COVID-19, businesses struggling to get people through their doors and the publics reluctant to venture out, I'm very surprised you are turning people like myself away from your retail park with these kind of practices.

 

I am refusing to pay this invoice. If this matter proceeds, and Trace Debt Recovery Ltd chooses to take further action which leads to court, I will be filing yourself, as the land owner, as a third party to the claim.

 

I look forward to your reply,

 

Regards, 

 

Scott Jackson

Thoughts before I send please?

[dx100uk]

trace cant do anything.

only the debt owner can do court.

 

redo the last line

[theSC0TT]

I am refusing to pay this invoice. If this matter proceeds, and PCM UK Ltd chooses to take this to court on your behalf, I will be filing yourself, as the land owner, a third party to the claim.

 

Edited December 22, 2020 by theSC0TT

[dx100uk]

the landowner would not be the one to do court

PCM would.

[FTMDave]

The mail is superb, it  should focus idle Andy's mind.  I agree with dx and suggest three small tweaks.

 

Evening Andy,

 

I've been informed you're the land owner of St. Michaels Retail Park in Basingstoke and the man to contact I've emailed directly, had emails with you CC'd in, rang your office and left messages with your front desk but heard nothing from you whatsoever in the 2 months I've tried to establish communications.

 

The situation is as follows. I received a parking charge from PCM UK Ltd for a violation at the end of September this year. This was for overstaying the 30 minute maximum stay in the car park directly outside Costa, Greggs and Nando's. I was eating in Nando's at the time of the violation, providing business. Being a regular customer to the retail park over the years, I expected a reply to my emails at the least, however this is not the case. I have not returned and have no intentions of returning to the retail park in the future due to this incident. Having parked in the "non-restricted" section of the car park for years to provide custom to businesses in your retail park and know that, as long as I was providing custom, the parking was free, why would any local look for signage stating any restrictions. What a confusing system you have in place that you have 2 separate schemes for what an average-Joe member of the public would assume is the same car park!

 

I contacted PCM to lodge an appeal based on the grounds of signage not being fit for purpose. It is not prominent enough to catch the eye. So much so, that an article was published in the Basingstoke Gazette due to a high number of complaints they've had regarding the exact same charge I received! 

 

I even took the time to phone Nando's as, like I stated previously, I was dining in at the time and was the entire reason for my visit that evening. I asked them if they knew who, some time after my visit, had placed laminated pieces of A4 paper on the signs in the car park warning customers of this unfair practice. I was expecting it to be a local who had took it upon themselves to warn other visitors. Not the case! The MANAGER of Nando's informed me it was members of his staff that had put the signs up to warn customers and avoid them getting scammed! This is absolutely disgusting that a business has to go to these measures to avoid their customers getting ripped off. More so, on PCM's part, it's absolutely embarrassing that an A4 piece of paper taped to a lamp post has a better effect than their "signage"! The signage provided by PCM and yourself is NOT fit for purpose, case and point being the many MANY visitors that have been stung by this charge. I don't believe for a second that ALL of us are all vigilantes and believe we have a God-given right to park anywhere for free. One person, maybe, but take a look at how many tickets were handed out in that time period. You've got to realise something is wrong rather than sitting there rubbing your hands together.

 

I'm demanding that you contact PCM UK Ltd and cancel this ticket. Not only have I had to deal with PCM's constant letters, they have now passed on this "debt" to Trace Debt Recovery Ltd. Giving the state of the country due to COVID-19, businesses struggling to get people through their doors and the public's reluctant to venture out, I'm very surprised you are turning people like myself away from your retail park with these kind of practices.

 

I am refusing to pay this invoice. If this matter proceeds, and PCM UK Ltd chooses to take further action which leads to court, I will be filing yourself, as the land owner, as a third party to the claim.

 

I look forward to your reply,

 

Regards,