Parcel2Go & EVRi Loss - court claim issued **SETTLED BEFORE HEARING**

[supernick90]

Hello - new user to the forums

 

Similar to many other cases which i've read through, albeit can't find an identical one in order to duplicate the process and not need this post.

 

• Sent a package with Parcel2Go using Hermes, didn't opt for additional protection. 
• Item was a macbook pro with broken screen, sold on ebay for £180.
• Dropped the package to a ParcelShop at their direction, using their own in-house label printer to package the item. Well-packaged item.
• Tracking info never updated once the original drop off had been confirmed
• Went through the usual chasing parcel2go and their escalation to Hermes.
• Also emailed the Hermes CEO as that seems to be the only way for a human response to trickle down.

 

Both companies have confirmed its loss with no compensation offered due to not taking insurance.

 

Out of principle, I don't wish to let this lie if I don't have to. From what i've read, assuming it's agreed I have a good chance of redress, I would need to send a notice of action to Parcel2Go indicating I am taking them to county court in 14 days? Is that correct?

Would greatly appreciate any guidance, but also don't want to duplicate posts, so if there is a more appropriate thread with the process all in one place, a referral to that will be appreciated.

Will monitor any replies and respond swiftly. Many thanks.

[BankFodder]

I'm not sure why you think this isn't similar to many of the other Hermes stories that we have here. As far as I can see it follows a pretty well identical pattern.

You sent an item. They lost it.

Did you declare the value at £180? Did you identify the contents of the parcel?

 

[supernick90]

Apologies BankFodder and thanks for the swift response.

I'm not that well-versed in these matters, and the posts I read in advance of making mine had taken out the insurance, which I thought might be a different legal precedent.

 

I declared the value at £180 and referred to "computer parts", since the laptop was essentially sold for spares and repair.

 

It was also dropped to a ParcelShop rather than collected directly, which i thought may bring in another element. i.e. it could have been stolen from the parcelshop before it was collected by Hermes, since it was only scanned once, when I dropped it off.

[BankFodder]

You will need to verify the sales price and also the fact that you reimbursed your purchaser.

You can decide whether to proceed against Parcel2go or against Hermes. They are both in the UK. You made your initial contract with Parcel2Go so may be it would be best to proceed against them.

Anyway decide who you want to go against and if you have got a written confirmation that they are denying liability and send the letter of claim.

Make sure you have read around this sub- forum to understand the process and the arguments – especially in relation to so-called insurance that you have to insure against the negligence of the courier. Make sure also that you have understood the steps involved in taking a small claim in the County Court.

[supernick90]

Thanks again. Will proceed vs Parcel2go. 

How would I verify the sales price? Evidence from ebay sale I presume?

Ebay refunded the buyer on my behalf as he understandably raised a complaint of not having received the item.

[BankFodder]

Well there will be eBay records and PayPal records

[supernick90]

Is the attached letter before action OK to send?

Letter Before Action.pdf

[BankFodder]

I'm afraid that this isn't a letter of claim – and you should not send it.

Firstly, a letter of claim is a very clear statement that there has been a breach, what you want them to do about it and if they don't do it at the end of a certain deadline – normally 14 days – that you will sue them.

A letter of claim is when you demonstrate that you have taken control and there are now strict timelines and deadlines to abide by – or else they will suffer the consequences.

You have left yourself wide open for them to take control. In fact they have control – and you allowing them to keep it.

You've asked for a reply "as soon as possible". What happens if they don't reply? How long is "as soon as possible"? Do you give it a week, or two weeks, or three weeks before you realise that they are ignoring you? This is an open ended deadline and it is meaningless and it means that you've handed control of your timetable to the other side.

You suggested that you are willing to use alternative dispute resolution to solve the problem. In other words you are diluting your threat of legal action. Assuming that they reply to – which they probably won't – supposing they say that they are prepared to use ADR, how do you go about setting this up? Have you got any idea of how you go into some kind of alternative dispute resolution? I expect you don't.

I can tell you that going into ADR outside the court process is extremely expensive – and for this kind of value you would never consider it. Extrajudicial ADR would only be contemplated by companies where they are arguing over a contract worth tens of thousands of pounds – or maybe millions.

If you want to go into ADR – then there will be plenty of time because you will be offered mediation as a possibility – but only after you have issued the court papers.

You have set a deadline of 14 days for a satisfactory response. But what is a satisfactory response? Is a satisfactory response an acknowledgement that they have received the letter? You ask them to do this.

Is a satisfactory response that they consent to ADR? You proposed this.

Is a satisfactory response that they reimburse you? Although you've asked this, the fact that you have proposed two other things means that it's really not entirely clear what you would accept in order to prevent you from issuing the claim.

You are needlessly diluting your letter. This suggests that you aren't really prepared to take this to court. If you send a letter like this, then I'm afraid it amounts to nothing and it will be treated with contempt. It probably will not get a reply – and you will be left dangling not knowing what to do.

A letter of claim outlines what you want – no alternative possibilities – and that if you don't get it by a certain time that you will issue a County Court claim and without any further notice.
End of story

 

[supernick90]

I used a template from citizensadvice and fleshed it out with particulars. 

 

Will amend according to your recommendation and post a second version.

Thanks for taking the time to review it.

[BankFodder]

I have no idea why you think it's useful taking advice from one organisation and then coming here and taking advice from us.

I think you should decide which horse you want to ride and stick with it.

With a certain amount respect to Citizens Advice, they are good at some things – but by and large the best you can say about them is that they are – well-intentioned.

[supernick90]

I didn't envision that the advice would be wildly different between the two, considering the objective is the same. It's not a case of playing two organisations off against each other, I expected it to be complimentary. Perhaps I was incorrect.

 

Keen to stick with consumer action, but if anything i don't want to turn up half-baked, and wanted to do some leg work myself so as not to waste anyone's time. 

 

Happy to read around the subject, but not an industry I have had direct exposure with, and therefore need assistance in some areas, hence being here for guidance.

I used the Citizens Advice template for a letter to action, as this is not something I am well-versed in. If that is an error, or likely to fail, then grateful for your advice on that.

 

I'll try and amend what I had produced to be more direct and less open to interpretation and post it as a reply if that's OK.

 

[supernick90]

Have used your comments to revise the letter, which i have uploaded.

Any further tips or advice are appreciated.

Letter Before Action v2.pdf

[BankFodder]

Perfect.

Send it off when you're ready – and in the intervening 14 days, register on the moneyclaim website and start preparing your claim. Please post the particulars of claim here so we have a look.

Particulars of claim only needs to be very short. You simply allege the facts and not the evidence.

Read around this sub- forum and you will get lots of examples.

[supernick90]

Thanks for the ongoing advice. Will Send that off.

In your opinion, am I likely to have greater chance of success with Hermes direct due to their size? They may be more willing to write off £180 rather than waste time going to court than Parcel2Go.

[BankFodder]

I've suddenly had a thought – you pay for insurance. Who is it who is giving you the insurance protection? Is it Hermes? Or is it parcel2go? Would you mind checking your paperwork please.

[supernick90]

I didn't pay for insurance.

 

There isn't anything on the paperwork indicating who the cover would have been with.

 

It appears as though it's a separate insurance offered by P2G - they refer in their T&Cs to purchasing it "from us" implying it's them.

[BankFodder]

Okay, I'll put that thought aside for the moment.

I think as your contract was with P2G, then you should probably proceed against them – although I don't know which will be easier to deal with. What I do know, is that the parcel was lost through the negligence of Hermes so in a way P2G have a contractual responsibility that they were not actually at fault.

This doesn't affect anything because you will be seeing on a breach of contract – but what is interesting from our point of view is that if P2G start finding themselves held liable for the negligence of Hermes, that this will introduce some division between them and some tension and might help to put pressure on Hermes to improve their standards. It's a long shot – and it would need lots of actions like this but every bit helps.

 

[supernick90]

Have today received the following email: 

 

Good Afternoon Nick,
I am contacting you today with regard to the email explaining a letter has been sent.
Firstly please allow me to offer you our most sincere apologies for the service you have received on this occasion.
When booking this order Nick, you were asked to enter the contents and value, you stated and I quote: "computer parts" (10x10x10, 3.5kg - £180.00), upon entering the value a pop up box was received which reads as follows:
"Don't get caught without enough protection should the unexpected happen. You can protect your parcel up to the value of £5,000.00
Yes, I would like to protect my £180.00 parcel against loss or damage for £9.00 exc VAT.
No, I'm willing to risk my £180.00 parcel. I'm not worried about potential loss or damage."
You selected 'No' this does mean that the goods in question were sent on a zero protection basis against loss or damage. You carried on throughout the booking process, where an additional pop up message was received, which again prompts you to protect your goods fully, you declined this option again. Prior to paying you are also required to read and accept our Terms and Conditions:
https://www.parcel2go.com/content/about-terms.aspx
"Extent of our Liability
6.4 We shall only be liable for damage or loss caused to you if it is caused by our negligence, breach of duty or other wrongful act or omission, and only subject to the limitations set out within this clause 6 and clause 7.
The Limitation on the Amount of our Liability
6.7 If we are liable to you for any reason, we shall (subject always to clause 7) only be liable to refund to you the cost paid for the Service(s), unless you have purchased Parcel Protection for your Consignment from us."
We have accepted liability for this, however, as per our terms we are only liable for the cost of service, which has already been refunded on 16th December 2020.
Please be advised Nick, we do not sell insurance, we offer parcel protection. Parcel2Go.com is not an insurance broker and is not backed by any. We do not offer any kind of insurance policy on any of our services. we give all of our customers the opportunity to protect their goods to a preferred value so that if an inquiry does result in a claim, that we are able to compensate them. All of our claims are self-certified and we are not a regulated company nor do we follow any ADR schemes.
If you wish to take this matter further that is your prerogative to do so, however, I must advise we will defend based on the above.
I do hope this is of some help.
Thank you Nick for your time and patience on this matter.
Kindest Regards

[BankFodder]

Does it have a reply address or is it a no reply email?

[supernick90]

Its the claims email address. So believe i am able to reply.

[BankFodder]

Quote

Thanks for your email of the XXX date explaining your so-called insurance scheme.

As I'm sure you must realise, this is a practice which is carried out throughout the courier industry so nobody has any choice.

It's also unique to the courier industry that you require customers to take out insurance against your own negligence, other breaches of contract, or the criminal activities of your own employees.

By any standards, this is an unfair term under the Consumer Rights Act and it is unenforceable at law.

Clearly it is Hermes which should be insuring themselves against these eventualities. Requiring your own customers to ensure against your inadequate service is unfair and also removes any incentive for Hermes to do a better job.

I sent you a letter of claim giving you a deadline and the clock is ticking.

If you want to take this all the way to court, then I'm very happy to do so. I'm fully aware that Hermes regularly backs down in front of the mediator – but if you want to take this all way to court, then I'm very happy to go there and when the judge finally agrees with me that this is an unfair unenforceable term, I will make sure that everybody on social media and in the press knows about it and I predict that not only will you have to stop using this excuse to avoid responsibility for your shortcomings in the future, but also that you will face a backlog of claims from people who you have unjustly refused to compensate.

 

What's funny as well is that Hermes spends more time trying to avoid paying out legitimate claims that it would cost them simply to pay and to get a good reputation.

See you in court.

Good luck

Signed

 

 

[supernick90]

Received a response more generic than the last and from a different seemingly more junior employee:

 

Thank you for your email.

At the outset please allow me to apologise for the inconvenience.

Due to the nature of the industry and high volume of parcels which enter the couriers networks daily it is unfortunate that some parcels can become missing whilst in transit. This is why we give all of our customers the option to cover their goods so that if a claim does arise we are able to compensate them.

Unfortunately, you opted to not protect the parcel. Towards the end of your booking on the confirmation page, you were then offered to take cover again, to which you declined again Nick.

I am afraid, we are unable to approve claim as no protection was taken.

Sincere apologies for the inconvenience caused Nick and if I can assist further please do let me know.

Kindest Regards

[BankFodder]

Ignore.  Get ready for day 15

[supernick90]

In your opinion are they likely to go all the way to court in defence of £180? Or impossible to say.

[BankFodder]

On previous form, it seems extremely unlikely. First of all it would cost them. Secondly, because there is a risk of losing, a judge would then presumably give their opinion about the principal upon which they are relying – the lack of insurance.
Although a County Court judgement wouldn't create a precedent, it would certainly be very handy to have a County Court judge say that the requirement of insurance was an unfair term. This would cause a great deal of difficulty for the industry and for a £180, they might not think it's worthwhile going to court over