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    • Forget CAB in relationb to PPC fleecer's, they are likely to advise you to pay them in easy instalments.
    • CLAIRES REPLY 😳 Hi Mark,   Having sought further advice on this matter, I am now clear as to the finer details of my consumer rights.   Your offer to rectify this issue is no longer a suitable option, as it would cause me considerable inconvenience. Additionally, this option would only have been viable if you were to collect and delivery my car free of charge. Additionally, this remedy is no longer suitable due to the fact I have completely lost faith in your business.   I am within my rights to a price reduction of the full cost of works to rectify this. I am of course happy for you to pay the spraying business directly upon receipt of a V.A.T invoice for your records.   Regards Claire
    • G CARS RESPONSE TO CLAIRES EMAIL   Hi Claire When you get the bonnet painted on the golf please ask the repairing garage to email us a vat receipt in the name of Gemcars ltd and we will pay another £112.50 contribution towards the repairs directly to the garage.  This can be done on the same day so it will not affect the garage releasing the car to you We can pay this directly to them via card over the phone This will bring the total contribution to £262.50 which equates to ¾ of the total cost Normally we would contribute 50% in a betterment situation but as you obviously feel very strongly about this matter on this occasion we will pay ¾ of your £350 quotation as full and final settlement in this matter Should you feel this is still not acceptable then you can of course bring it to us and we will have the bonnet painted whilst you wait at no cost to yourself  (apart from a few hours of your time)   Sincerely Mark and Gina
    • CLAIRES RESPONSE TO OUR EMAIL   Hi Mark,   I have addressed the fact that I do not bully or blackmail and am mortified you would take it that way!    I will address your comments by paragraph also: My issue is not about how many stone chips anyone would expect, or how many there are on your wife’s car. it is about what you stated in your video which is not up on your website now. You did not mention when you asked the man who cleaned the car prior to delivery, just that you had. Then when I asked you whether they could be rectified by way of individual chips, you said to me I could not as there were hundreds and it would need respraying (and yes, I had assumed this was an estimate not that you had counted them). This to me indicated that you knew the bonnet had more than just the odd stone chip here and there on the front of the bonnet. I stated I felt you had deceived me, because as I stated before I have been told this by professional sprayers who have been in the business a very long time. Yes, you mentioned over the phone that I was the first person to complain in over 50 cars.  Your video was under 17 minutes and appeared as if you were pointing everything out on it including the odd stone chips to the front of the bonnet. Eco a toy what I would expect is how it was shown and described. Yes, I am happy with the car itself apart from this issue. The odd stone chip touched in here and there on the bonnet was what was described and expected. I do my research and Car Gurus checker is one of many market values. Also, from the cars I had checked (and yes, a few were one owner with full service history. One with a few more miles on the clock and another with less). I did not state that stone chips should not be touched in, but that I had been told they were done badly and ineffectively and that they would have been better off left alone (which I took in the context of the conversation to mean being done properly by a professional). You asked me what would make me happy after telling me the cost would be £150 for you or more like £200 here to have the work done you had told me. I had not negotiated any discount off the car at all and had reserved at the price advertised. My ex husband was in the car business and it is anticipated and wholly accepted to negotiate prices on used cars. This can not be compared with a a general store purchase. I purchased a large value item which was not as described. The delivery cost is what was negotiated, nothing else. You reimbursed for a job which I can not get done for anywhere near the price. Yes you are certainly misreading it as I explained in our earlier communication! I am sorry if you took this the wrong way and I should have elaborated that at the time. If you need this clarified, I would be happy to get you character witnesses to confirm to you that I am the opposite sort of person to even consider that type of behaviour. I apologise again that you found my email very rude, it was not meant that way at all. I am just really upset by this whole thing.   Whether your offers are meant to be rude or not, I find some of the comments as such.   As mentioned in our earlier communications, all I want is the car in the condition as advertised. I am still happy for you to collect the car, rectify the issue and deliver back to me or a refund closer to the cost of this. Although I trust the quotes I have, I can keep searching for a cheaper price. The bonnet is not in the condition as advertised (I can count and document tomorrow in daylight if you’d like).    Regards Claire
    • GEM CARS REPLY TO THIS EMAIL   Hi Claire   You are obviously upset which we don’t want So I have a couple of solutions below I must say I’m not grumpy or mardy or angry or upset. I’m not trying to have a go or start an argument but your email did sadden me greatly I always work better with people that talk things over rather than going straight for the jugular Anyway I have addressed the comments in your email matter of fact and I have some solutions below My main priority is your happiness with the car and the outcome, but unfortunately I wont be bullied into paying over the odds for a repair You need to appreciate that to fully paint the bonnet is betterment as such its not fair to expect the full amount especially as I have sent you the full amount that we would pay already. As you have already said neither of us needs to be thinking about your stone chips all weekend so hopefully this email will be the last one   If its ok I will address each paragraph one at a time   1; I didn’t deliberately deceive anyone I clearly state that the bonnet has odd stone chips here and there and odd stone chips on the front edge (I’ve just watched my video to be sure) (those are my exact words) (please feel free to double check I’ve left the video up for you) If I had said no stone chips or one or two stone chips (like I have on other videos)  then I would agree with you but I clearly stated (odd stone chips here and there) Exactly how many stone chips would you feel is acceptable on a 10 year old car with 117000 miles on ? My wife’s brand new golf R with 5000 miles on the clock has 6 already   2; You state that its clear I already knew how bad the bonnet was because I asked our valeter, This is untrue because after you called my wife to complain I then asked the valeter if he noticed the bonnet being particularly bad before I called you back as I couldn’t remember it being that bad, Also you asked if you could get a chips away type company to just come and touch them in, I simply said there are 100s of tiny chips and it would be cheaper to paint the bonnet this was just a generalisation not an exact count of the stone chips (as I said I had to ask the valeter if the bonnet was really that bad as I could not remember) Any more than 20 chips would be too many for a chips away type repair I hardly counted all the stone chips During our conversation this is exactly what I said   3; You accuse me of deceiving you when I stated that it costs us £150 plus vat to have a bonnet painted I have sent you the copy of our pricing structure from our paint shop I told you the truth I have no reason to lie feel free to call them on Monday and check for yourself If you see option 1 below and decide to bring it to us I will happily give you a copy of the bill     4; My 18 Minute video was completely honest and I did not try to deceive anyone with the video We have sold over 300 cars off the back of my videos and you are the first person to complain I would ask you did I state in my video that the car had no stone chips? Did I say one or two stone chips? NO I DIDN’T  I clearly stated odd stone chips here and there which is exactly what it has as you would expect. I would add that when you called to complain I kindly sent you the full cost that we pay to have a full bonnet painted I didn’t argue the case as most car dealers would as we pride ourselves on our levels of customer service I simply asked you what you would be happy with as compensation and you said £150 so I sent you £150 instantly to your bank.   5; You state that the car was priced at the higher end of the market for the year and mileage yet on our Car Gurus checker it showed as £400 behind market value When you checked the prices were the other cars you looked at all one lady owner white 5 door cars with full service history (as this makes a huge difference in price) So NO I disagree our car was very fairly priced and not at the higher end The condition of the car was fantastic for a 10 year old 120000 mile car you have said yourself you are happy with it apart from the stone chips on the bonnet so I’m struggling to understand what you mean by alleged condition? If you don’t touch stone chip in, the metal goes rusty so no I disagree you should always touch stone chips in   6; You accuse me of compensating you dishonestly when I simply asked you what would make you happy and you agreed £150 which I sent you straight away I would also add that you negotiated an additional £100 off the car after you had bought it as I kindly paid half the delivery for you. When you purchase items from other stores how often do you get a discount after you have agreed to buy the item? So you actually have £250 towards the stone chips.   7; No disrespect intended by I have already reimbursed you for what would be my full costs     8; I’m unsure what you mean by “Please do not be concerned with regards to a review, as I will not be leaving one until this matter is fully resolved” To me that sounds like bullying and blackmail but I could be misreading it?   Even though I found your email very rude I still have 3 amicable solutions to offer you   1; Refund us the £150 I sent you then bring the car back and have a day out in Lincoln, it’s a beautiful place to visit we have one of the biggest cathedrals in Europe (used in the hit film the da Vinci code) the castle is stunning and the cathedral quarter has some lovely places to shop and eat we also have a large Primark We will drop you to get the train into Lincoln central and whilst you shop and eat we will get the bonnet painted for you we will give you an additional £20 towards food and fuel on us and then collect you in the afternoon and you can drive you car home with the newly painted bonnet.   2; Accept a full refund for the car and we will collect it next week   3; Accept the fact that it is a 10 year old car with 117000 miles it does have stone chips, we didn’t deliberately mislead you, we did send you £150 towards the repairs and pay half your delivery so buy yourself a Genuine colour pen for the car (£15) touch the chips in with the right colour and spend the rest on a spa day   Sincerely Mark and Gina  
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How often are camera vans wrong?


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Hi Caggers, and apologies if this has been done to death elsewhere but i can't find anything specific.

 

Other half has received an NIP relating to an alleged speeding offence a few days ago. She is gobsmacked, as it is on a stretch of road where there is often a camera van, she saw the van, and she was behind "a little hatchback" going so slowly she didn't even feel the need to check her speedo. They think she was doing 72 (indicated about 75 on the dial, then) in a 60. She doesn't believe it, but daren't risk taking it to court in case she gets a heavier fine and more points. This will take her to 9!!!

 

Question: In the expert opinion of the assembled wisdom, how often are camera van readings successfully challenged (in court or elsewhere) on the basis of the speed being inaccurate (i.e. not just on a technicality or the NIP having inaccuracies)? It may influence whether she should request a court hearing.

 

Also, how can it be fair and equitable for police forces to differ in the ability  to access the photographic record (e.g. Lancs where you can, and West Mercia (us) where you can't)? The law is the same throughout England.

 

Thanks in advance 

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they are very rarely wrong.

 

what would concern me more is that she appears not to be able to judge her perceived speed accurately .......

thinking one is 'going so slowly' when infact she was in excess of 70MPH doesn't point to well toward ever being generally too aware  about her speed anywhere. 

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please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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How would your wife establish that the camera reading was inaccurate?  I have heard it done, but I would guess that it's only in about one case out of a thousand of those that get to court.

 

My understanding (which may be mistaken) is that so long as the speed reading is measured by a Home Office approved device, it is presumed to be both accurate and correct, unless the defendant can show otherwise.  This means showing that the reading actually was incorrect, not just that it could have been incorrect.  I suspect your wife saying "I thought I was only travelling at 60mph" would not be enough.

 

Also, once you start querying the accuracy of the device in question, the prosecution will bring in expert evidence at an eye-watering cost.  You would probably be looking at expert witness costs alone in excess of £1000 - not counting normal prosecution costs of about £600.

 

This chap was certain he wasn't breaking the limit as well:  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hereford-worcester-49641063

 

I don't know enough to say whether she may be eligible for a speed awareness course (if she's not done one in the last three years) or whether she should get a conditional offer of a fixed penalty.  Personally, I'd take what they offered rather than contest it at court - unless I was 100% certain I was not guilty and was 100% confident I could demonstrate it.

 

I presume she has already acknowledged that she was the driver and has done so within the prescribed time limit?

 

FWIW I tend to agree that the availability (or otherwise) of photographic evidence is a bit unsatisfactory.  But it makes no difference to your wife's case as she would argue the photographic evidence is wrong anyway, wouldn't she?  So it doesn't matter that she can't see it(!).

 

Another poster, Man in the Middle, will probably correct any errors I've made - he knows what he's talking about.

 

 

Edited by Manxman in exile
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also 6 points previously for what?

don't tell us speeding......

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please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Thanks for your sage advice, @Manxman in exile and @dx100uk

 

I'm surprised she was going that fast on that particular stretch of road, but there is a reason why West Mercia's finest stake it out on such a frequent basis.

I'm not here to defend her (nor was i with her, or i would have suggested she moderates her speed), just wondering if there is case-history of these cameras being challenged. You have answered that very clearly, for which you have my thanks.

 

Time for her to suck it up, i suspect (again :()

 

EDIT: Part of me was wondering if the camera might get it wrong if the view was interrupted by a lorry or something (the van was on the opposite side of the road).

Edited by Oddfellow
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Yes Manxman has near enough covered it. Your wife must prove to the court that the measurement in her particular case cannot be relied upon. She will be hard pushed to do that. Showing that "this might have happened" or "that may have malfunctioned" will not do.

 

She should be offered a speed awareness course for that speed provided she has not done one of the applicable type (there are three) within the last three years. This will cost her about £100 and three or four hours of her time but, crucially, no points. If she does not fancy that or it is not offered the alternative is a fixed penalty of £100 and three points.

 

Nobody is entitled to any evidence before court proceedings begin. Drivers can ask for "any photographs which may help identify the driver." Obviously they should do so before responding to the Section 172 request for driver's details. Some areas provide them, others do not and there is no obligation to do so. The photographs rarely help identifying the driver as they are designed to identify the vehicle, not the driver. Identifying the driver is the duty of (in the first instance, at least) the Registered Keeper. Those photographs usually only form the evidence (if it is needed) to identify the vehicle. Evidence to substantiate the speed alleged will come either from the automatic device or, in the case of a manned device or a vehicle stop, by the operator or police officer who measured the speed.

 

You can see from the link provided by Manxman about Mr Keedwell's case, the perils of defending an allegation solely on the basis that the driver was "certain they were not exceeding the limit." Your wife would do well to accept whatever out of court offer is made.

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