PARKING MATTER

[LUGHO]

Hi everyone  ,  I

would like some help with parking fines I'm dealing with right now , with Birmingham City Council.

 

I was 20 when I bought my first car, a 2007 black Peugeot,  I've had it for about 2 years .

I bought myself new car in 2018 that I'm still driving, and gave the Peugeot to a close friend to use for work and leisure etc ( I was tired seeing walking to work)  but didn't change v5c as it was only a short temporary loan until he got his own car. 

 

While using it he got himself three parking tickets

first one was 24/06/2019 ,

second on 07/10/2019 and

last one was 23/10/2019.

 

He wasn't aware of the tickets otherwise he would've paid them all and informed me.

 

On 03/2019 I was kicked out of the family address (where the car is registered),  with no where to go I slept in my car for 5 days until a friend was happy to take me in , temporarily whilst I look for a place.

 

Parking letters were sent into my address countless times (Birmingham City Council said) and I wasn,t aware of it , I wasn't allowed to go near the property.

 

On 01/11/2020 I received a call from the bailiff, equita saying I have out standing fine of 799 for parking.

Almost wet myself, I spoke to gentleman on the phone he didn't want to hear me out , he kept on asking for payment. 

 

I called the council and explained the whole situation above the lady advised  me to fill TE7 and TE9.

Because I wasn't aware of the whole process I filed  the PCN wrong and I have now been rejected by council and TEC.

 

WHAT IS MY NEXT STEP FROM HERE?

The other PCN was submitted correctly with the help of a lawyer i still waiting on the response.

 

1. What can I do solves these parking matters

2.can I submit another Te7 and 9 on the same PCN?

3 what should do to prevent bailiff coming?

 

Sorry for the long story

 

[dx100uk]

you were not the driver you should be informing them of such and naming the driver in question.

 

you can resubmit new TE7/9 with that info.

 

 

[LUGHO]

Birmingham City Council,  told me because the car is on my name I am responsible  for it and I can't have anyone take the blame.

 

[BankFodder]

Birmingham council are wrong.

 

However, you probably left yourself open to this problem by not changing the keeper details.  You should do this now.

 

Also are there any other lurking problems which could come up and bite you?  You should make proper arrangements to redirect post or to inform creditors etc. This is the kind of scenario where you end up getting backdoor CCJs which then become difficult to deal with

[LUGHO]

He is not in possession of the car anymore,  like said it was a short loan until he buy his car. Do I still need to change the keeper details? There no other issues  , just the parking tickets. Note" all three tickets  are some from his mom housing flat that required to display permit"

 

I am currently living in a hostel ( share accommodation) I've change my new car address to this one and all my mails are coming to this address

[Homer67]

This is important, who are the parking tickets form? Scan one up if they are all the same.

[LUGHO]

They are from Birmingham City Council , and this where the his mom live

 

At this time I was homeless , with no permanent address

lugho.pdf

[Manxman in exile]

17 hours ago, dx100uk said:

you were not the driver you should be informing them of such and naming the driver in question.

 

you can resubmit new TE7/9 with that info.

 

 

 

I may be mistaken (and apolgies in advance if I am!) but I thought that for local authority parking charges it was the "owner" that was liable for the charge, and the driver was irrelevant?  And isn't there a presumption that the registered keeper is the owner except where there is a proper hire agreement in place?

 

If he simply says he wasn't the driver, won't Birmingham CC simply object again to the OOT, and the TEC reject it?

 

Doesn't he need to say that he didn't know about the PCNs etc because he didn't have access to his mail at the address on his V5C?  (Even then, I'd expect BCC to object unless the OP's wording is really persuasive).

 

I'd be looking at the solution his solicitor had for the other PCN...

 

(And I'd be looking to the "friend" to do the right thing...

Edited December 3, 2020 by Manxman in exile

[spaceman61]

On 03/12/2020 at 02:25, dx100uk said:

you were not the driver you should be informing them of such and naming the driver in question.

 

you can resubmit new TE7/9 with that info.

 

 

It's irrelevant who the driver was. The owner is liable under decriminalised enforcement for council issued tickets.

 

On 03/12/2020 at 07:47, BankFodder said:

Birmingham council are wrong.

 

However, you probably left yourself open to this problem by not changing the keeper details.  You should do this now.

 

Also are there any other lurking problems which could come up and bite you?  You should make proper arrangements to redirect post or to inform creditors etc. This is the kind of scenario where you end up getting backdoor CCJs which then become difficult to deal with

There are no CCJs under decriminalised parking enforcement.

[LUGHO]

So everyone what should my next step be in this situation?

 

[Manxman in exile]

OK.  So you lent your car to a friend in 2019 and he racked up three parking tickets that he tells you he didn't know anything about(!).  You were the registered keeper (RK) at the time at your family address, but you got chucked out and could not change your RK address with DVLA because you were homeless.  You knew nothing about the parking tickets and enforcement action until you got a bailiffs' letter passed on to you.  You made an Out of Time (OOT) application in respect of one PCN but Birmingham CC objected to it and the traffic court rejected your application.  A solicitor helped you make OOTs in respect of the other two PCNs but you don't yet know the outcome of those two applications.

 

Is that the situation you are in?

 

dx100uk thinks you can resubmit the application saying your friend was the driver.  I don't think saying that will help as the driver is irrelevant.  It's the owner who is liable to pay the charge and that is the RK (unless the RK is a car hire firm).  I assume you are not a car hire firm so you are stuck with the liability, not the driver.

 

Whether you actually can resubmit an OOT once one has been rejected I do not know, but why not try.  What did the solicitor put on the applications they helped you with?  Did you not ask their advice about the rejected application while you were with them?  I think you would have to say something to the effect that you never received any paperwork in relation to the PCNs because you had been chucked out of your home and because you were homeless you did not update your address at DVLA.  That is the truth isn't it?  You don't want to lie on the application.

 

To me that's a good reason for you not doing anything about the PCNs, but I suspect that Birmingham CC will object again and that the traffic court will reject again.  And, as I said above, I don't even know if you can submit a second OOT application in respect of a PCN if the first has been rejected.

 

So it looks to me like you might be a bit stuck.

 

Unless dx100uk, or spaceman61, or another poster with expertise in local authority PCNs comes along I'm not sure what you do.

 

If you get no more helpful suggestions here you could try on National Consumer Service.  If you do go there, do not register with a hotmail address.  You will also need to provide them with a timeline of everything for all the documents you actually have, and you will need all the facts and dates etc at your fingertips.  And make sure they are accurate.

 

http://forums.National Consumer Service.com/index.php?showforum=30

 

And get your friend to contribute to paying off the PCNs.  Do you believe he really knew nothing about them?

[Michael Browne]

Quote

If you get no more helpful suggestions here you could try on National Consumer Service.  If you do go there, do not register with a hotmail address.  You will also need to provide them with a timeline of everything for all the documents you actually have, and you will need all the facts and dates etc at your fingertips.  And make sure they are accurate.

 

http://forums.National Consumer Service.com/index.php?showforum=30

The forum software automatically changes other website addresses back to CAG,

 

 

 

[Will Goodfellow]

On what grounds did your solicitor appeal on the TE9? There doesn't appear to be any grounds on which you can appeal, you lent your car to a friend who received three Penalty Charge Notices, as the car was still owned by you, you're liable for them, it doesn't matter who was driving. The only grounds you would have to appeal is if the tickets were incorrectly issued. As others have mentioned, an unpaid Penalty Charge Notice does not result in a CCJ. An Order for Recovery is issued and then enforcement action can be taken, of which the first step is usually bailiffs.

 

If your TE9 is rejected, which seems likely, you can take steps to prevent the bailiffs taking goods. Eventually they will give up and will inform the council they couldn't take any goods, at this stage the bailiff fees will be removed so will reduce the outstanding amount. You can set up a payment plan at that time, or you can carry on ignoring them and await the council's next move to enforce the Order for Recovery.

[Jamberson]

You have a good case and may well win. I will be happy to tell you what to do.

 

Before I do, let me just say this: I am always concerned when I hear about solicitors being involved in parking tickets. I presume he/she is charging you for their services, whether you win or not? You can get all the advice you need for nothing, elsewhere. Most solicitors know little about the PCN process in my experience, but will still take your cash whetever happens. If I were you I would not pay anyone a penny for their advice. If your solicitor knows their stuff, this is what they will have told you in five minutes:

 

- Yes you can submit another TE7/TE9. You can submit up to nine in connection with any PCN.

- The owner of the vehicle is liable for all the charges, that's you, because you only lent the car to a friend and did not sell it.

- You must advise the DVLA of who keeps the car, and they must be named on the V5C. Nonetheless the owner will always be liable for the PCNs.

 

What to do... file a new TE7 and TE9 for each PCN as soon as you can. You do it yourself to be sure, and don't rely on any the solicitor may have done for you. Do new ones, so you know they are correct.

 

The TE9 is the first one to do: fill in your details in the boxes, using your current address. Tick the box which says "I did not receive the Penalty Charge Notice". Sign, date etc.

 

Now the TE7 - make sure you get this right! This is the form which tells them why you are late in submitting the TE9, and they need a good explanation or they will reject the whole thing. Fill in your name and current address again, as before. In the box "Reasons" - explain clearly and simply - you lent the car to a mate (name him, don't give his address) tell them when you did it. Tell them you moved out of your previous home on xxx date. Tell them your friend failed to advise you of any PCNs, and you did not at any point receive a PCN or Notice to Owner because you had left the property they will have written to. Sign, date etc.

 

(My advice, stick to these facts, don't talk around what you would have done if... or accuse them of anything - just tell the straight facts as I suggested.)

 

Get this done for each PCN as soon as you can. Do one TE7 and one TE9 for each PCN which is outstanding. Send them back to Northamton County Court, not to the council.

 

Post back if any of this is unclear.

 

 

Edited December 6, 2020 by Jamberson

[Will Goodfellow]

'Winning' if a TE9 is accepted on the grounds of not receiving the Notice to Owner or PCN above would mean reducing the amount owed to the cost of the original tickets. Also, if the op left the car's registered address on 03/2019, why was the car still registered at that address on 24/06/2019 and still registered at that address on 23/10/2019? I don't think it's such a clear cut case of 'winning' as you imply.

[Jamberson]

It's more than "reducing the amount". It removes the threat of any bailiff action and revokes their execution warrant and fees, and it gets the OP back in the appeals process, which is what he wants. He can then appeal them or pay, and will have a month to do one of those, or better, he can ask his friend to pay them, and the situation can be resolved.

 

As to why the vehicle was registered to this or that address, it's not relevant. That's the sort of diversion which he doesn't need to get concerned with. Just showing why he did not receive the official notices is what he needs to do now. Any discrepancy over the place of registration is DVLA's concern, not Birmingham City Council's.

 

 

Edited December 6, 2020 by Jamberson
typo

[Will Goodfellow]

It will remove the threat of enforcement action, and I agree that the place of registration is a concern of the DVLA as it can issued fines to people who don't notify of the correct address. But it is relevant to the appeal and will be taken in to consideration by the council. The appeal can be rejected on the grounds that the car was not registered at the correct address if the appellant argues that's why the Notice to Owner or PCN was not received, as it is the keepers responsibility to notify DVLA of the correct address.

[dx100uk]

why the owner did not receive the PCN's , even if through negligence upon their behalf is irrelevant.

infact stating that you failed to register the vehicle at a new address supports the case of not receiving them.

the council cannot use it against the keeper

 

if the DVLA want to do something about that is a totally unrelated civil matter and not a criminal fine, of which they have 6mts from the date of the offence to decided upon.

 

 

 

[Will Goodfellow]

No offence dx100uk but earlier on in this thread you suggested sending the TE7 and TE9 forms stating that the op wasn't the driver, this shows a lack of knowledge on your behalf on what ground appeals are accepted. Not receiving the Notice to Owner or PCN on the grounds that the keeper had not notified the DVLA of a change of address is grounds for an appeal but it's not a good reason and is likely to be rejected more often than accepted.

[Jamberson]

dx is right though. The grounds for having the application accepted out of time only hinge on the reasons why it is late. Not having the car registered to the correct address is a convincing reason why the forms could not have been submitted in time, and so it supports the application.

 

If the car was registered to the correct address that would weaken the application, as no-one would belive three separate notices failed to arrive at the house. But if the OP isn't living there when they are delivered, then that all makes sense.

[Will Goodfellow]

As I mentioned before, it is grounds to appeal and may be good evidence to support a TE7/TE9 but it's also good grounds for the application be to rejected as the council can argue that it made every effort to contact the keeper at the correct address held by the DVLA and it's the owner's responsibility to update those details.

 

Also out of interest where do you get the information from that a TE7/TE9 can be resubmitted up to nine times for the same PCN?

Edited December 6, 2020 by Will Goodfellow

[LUGHO]

When I was homeless I didn't have anywhere to go,  slept in couple homeless shelters, until a friend was happy to take me in. At this point changing address of my Peugeot wasn't a priority because I never had a permanent address , I didn't know how long I would stay at my friend for , and in addition i wasn't informed of the tickets. That's why I didn't change the address

 

sorry , but I don't have a solicitor,  I filled TE9 and 7 myself.

I filled the first  one wrong because I wasn't really too sure what information to add on it , I still waiting on the on the outcome of the two that  filled as well

 

 

@Manxman in exileYeahhh that's pretty much it , but I didn't get solicitor involved 

 

@Will GoodfellowWhat should I do?

 

@Jamberson Thank you so much I will do it right away! , I keep you posted 

[Jamberson]

@Will GoodfellowDebtor files witness statement on the grounds he did not receive the notices. Council looks to see whether that is plausible. If it is, witness statement should be accepted.

 

The whole point that out of times are possible is because problems like this arise, and the most common grounds for filing them is this one. It's what the process was set up for. Failure to update DVLA is common and whoever's fault that is doesn't matter. OP has a legal right to defend himself against forfeiture of goods and so the Council must serve him notices first. He hasn't been served any because he was not living at the address they sent them to. That's all that matters for the sake of PCNs.

 

The nine submissions came from when I used to run an appeals team in my local Council. We were aware we were probably non-compliant in some respects so I had one of my team research the Council's whole legal obligation and this is one of the facts which came up. I imagine most councils don't even know, but it's not really important. There's no grounds to reject a witness statement on the basis that another witness statement was submitted before. It will only be accepted or rejected based on the material facts concerning the notices and the reason for late submission.

[Will Goodfellow]

Ah, okay. So a TE7/TE9 appeal can be submitted, which will stop enforcement action and if that's rejected, another one can be submitted to stop enforcement action again and if that one is rejected, another one can be submitted to stop enforcement action and if that's rejected, another one can be submitted to stop enforcement action, and again and again and again and again and again. That's a great tactic to delay enforcement! I'm surprised not everyone does it. You state it is the council's legal obligation to accept nine submissions so it shouldn't be too hard to dig up the relevant legislation.

 

Or is it that a TE7/TE9 can only be submitted once, and if that is rejected, there is no further right of appeal and an N244 has to be submitted to the court for a district judge to hear the case if the PCN is still contested? That sounds way more feasible, as it would be the correct process.

 

It's true that a TE9 can't be rejected on face value but the council can object to it, and acceptance or rejection varies widly between different councils. One of the op's TE9 applications was already rejected.

Edited December 7, 2020 by Will Goodfellow

[Manxman in exile]

On 07/12/2020 at 09:05, LUGHO said:

sorry , but I don't have a solicitor,  I filled TE9 and 7 myself.

I filled the first  one wrong because I wasn't really too sure what information to add on it , I still waiting on the on the outcome of the two that  filled as well

 

@Manxman in exileYeahhh that's pretty much it , but I didn't get solicitor involved 

 

 

Sorry LUGHO - I'm not being funny or doubting you, but you did say:

 

On 02/12/2020 at 23:01, LUGHO said:

The other PCN was submitted correctly with the help of a lawyer i still waiting on the response.

 

They may not have been a "solicitor", but you do describe them as a "lawyer".  How did they assist you in completing the other TE7/9s after the one for your first PCN was rejected?  If this person drafted a form of words for you to use to explain why you didn't get any of the PCN documentation, why can't you just repeat this wording and submit another application for the first PCN?  (I'm ignoring the issue as to whether you can or cannot re-submit).