No signs/ leaves covering lines - PCN complaint?? Meadow Close, Richmond TW10 7AJ

[HP Mum]

Just wondering if anyone has successfully argued against a PCN when there was no sign indicating parking restrictions and leaves were covering lines?

 

I parked car for 2 weeks in a free parking zone.  It was a residential street with free parking down one side.  I parked car in the last spot at the end of the road in a dead-end.

There were 2 areas allocated for residential parking - clearly marked with black/white signs.   The car was parked in front of a lamp post and no sign was attached to that.   There were no other signs in the road - nothing to indicate restrictions or free parking.   The council website states the street is a free parking zone.

Yet when I collected the car - there were 3 tickets on the windscreen - £110/each (of £55 if pay early).   

 

Turns out that there were double yellow lines exactly where I had parked the car - but they were completely covered in a thick pile of leaves.    Only visible by kicking them.   And even then they were also faint.   There were no other lines on that side of the road.  It was a dead-end.   There is no way a normal driver would have expected there would be lines in that spot - the one spot in an otherwise free parking street.

 

I took loads of photos.   And I intend to write this weekend to try get them cancelled.

Has anyone else been in a similar situation and succeeded in cancellations?

 

 

 

[honeybee13]

Hi.

 

Can you give us the street name and postcode of where you parked please? People may be able to look it up. It's possible some of your photos will be useful, but I'll leave the people in the know to ask you.

 

HB

[HP Mum]

Thanks HB

 

It was Meadow Close, TW10

 

[honeybee13]

Could we have the rest of the postcode please? I imagine the tickets are from Richmond council?

 

HB

[HP Mum]

I googled the full postcode

TW10 7AJ

Seems to apply to the whole road

Yes - Richmond

 

one of the tickets is dated 10/11 - so I do need to address a complaint over the weekend. It will be the same complaint for all 3 tickets

Edited November 21, 2020 by HP Mum

[honeybee13]

If you have time, please wait to see if people in the know are able to get here. We have a couple of caggers who understand all this.

 

HB

[Michael Browne]

What are the dates of the 3 pcn's?  Are they consequetive days?

 

Google street view does extend up Meadow Close, so post your photos

[HP Mum]

Hi. Thanks for commenting

 

10th, 17th and 18th Nov

 

Will sort photo upload now

[Michael Browne]

You will certainly be able to have the last two cancelled on the grounds that,  since the vehicle was not moved during the whole period, it was a  'continuous contravention', where the convention is  that you cannot be punished more than once for a single offence.  The council may well reject that, but you would almost certainly win at adjudication, particularly since DYL's are 24/7 , ie not an intermittent restriction and therefore you were in contnuous contravention for the whole period you were parked there.

 

The first pcn is more contentious and would rely heavily on whether the councils pics show the leaves totally obscuring the DYL.

 

There should be pics on Richmonds website.

 

https://www2.richmond.gov.uk/PCNViewer/

Edited November 21, 2020 by Michael Browne

[HP Mum]

i have had a quick look at their site.

There is a difference between my photos and theirs

[Michael Browne]

That doesn't tell us much! Show us. Have you looked the pics for all 3 pcns. Even if they don't back up the leaves an gle ,  they may help confirm the vehicle didn't move.

 

 

[HP Mum]

attached are photos I took at the time of collection. 

I did first move the car and start driving off.  Then I realised i should take photos.  So I returned and took these photos - with my black car in situ and with it not in situ.    

It wasnt until I kicked the leaves that I could see there were yellow lines.   

I will see if I can now download the council pics

 

20-11-2020 car pcn pics.pdf

 

attached are photos I took at the time of collection. 

I did first move the car and start driving off.  Then I realised i should take photos.  So I returned and took these photos - with my black car in situ and with it not in situ.    

It wasnt until I kicked the leaves that I could see there were yellow lines.   

I will see if I can now download the council pics

20-11-2020 car pcn pics.pdf

[Michael Browne]

 

 

You need to submit a challenge for each pcn (separately, but refer to the others) before 24th Nov. 1st one DYL were totally obscured by leaves, 2nd and 3rd 'continuous contravention'.

 

They will reject, but re-offer the discount. At that point you will have to decide whether to continue with  all 3, thus losing the discount or accept you were in contravention, pay the discount on the first and be prepared to dispuute the continuous ones as far as adjudication if necessary.

 

You would be risking the full penalrty on both but there have been numerous Tribunal cases to support this ground:- 2110166557, 2140191859, 2140184092, 2140234882

 

Going by your pics (and without seeing the councils) personally I'd take all 3 to adjudicaion,  you'd almost certainly win the last two and would be risking the full penalty on the 1st.

[HP Mum]

have attached the richmond photos.

in their photos the lines are showing at the end.

If the lines had shown when I parked - in daylight - i would have noticed.

 

I have a further problem.   I can't afford to pay.  

Not the discount, not the full amount.

I am on a benefit that per month equals the amount of the total of all 3 tickets full value. 

20-11-2020 Richmond pcn pics.pdf

Edited November 21, 2020 by HP Mum

[HP Mum]

i haven't really been driving.  Its why I parked in a control free zone.  This is why the discovery of these lines is such a shock to me.

I've been cycling mostly instead.  Yesterday wasn't a very good day - first these tickets and then my locked-up bike was stolen 

Really cut up about it all

[Michael Browne]

As long as you challenge before 24th the pcns will be on hold until they reply. I don't know how efficient Richmond are, but it could be 5-6 weeks.(esp with covid)  If rejected, as is likely, they will allow a further 14 days for the discount, so that's 7-8 weeks before anything has to be paid. As  I said, it's only at that point will you have to decide whether to continue with  all 3, thus losing the discount or accept you were in contravention, pay the discount on the first and be prepared to dispuute the continuous ones as far as adjudication if necessary.

 

To get to adjudication , the council has to send a Notice to Owner (28days after the 14 day discount runs out,)  You then have 28days to make representations to the NtO and they then must reject within 56 days. You then have 28 days to appeal to adjudication which at the moment are taking 10-12 weeks or longer. In other words, it could be April or May before you reach adjudication with a good chance of 2nd and 3rd pcns being cancelled. But be warned you must keep on top of everything , adhere to the timesclaes for each pcn and not let things slip, it will involve a fair amount of work on your part.

 

Looking at the council pics, I can't see an adjudicator allowing an appeal on the 1st pcn on the basis of obscured DYL's

Edited November 21, 2020 by Michael Browne

[notodebt]

I would challenge all the way !

 

Check one of my posts as I had a similar issue with my local authority , tree branches and bush covering sign. Took photos same day and a week later lo and behold the branches were cut back. Not my issue the council does not maintain the highways.

 

Looking at your photos how could you tell there were any lines?

Of course the council threw it straight back so I appealed and went to the next level and submitted my photos as evidence , they backed down then although still did not admit defeat and stated it as a goodwill gesture...

 

I got some great advice on here so don't be stressed or worried follow the guidelines on here. Either way they are going to try to force you to pay so don't give the @$$ holes an easy ride....

 

If I have the correct local authority check these links : 

 

https://www.richmond.gov.uk/services/roads_and_transport/roads_and_road_works/road_and_pathway_maintenance

 

https://www.richmond.gov.uk/services/roads_and_transport/roads_and_road_works/road_and_pathway_maintenance/road_and_highways_obstuctions

 

second link has the following :

 

• Builders' skips – check if a skip is licensed before reporting
• Scaffolding or hoardings
• Builders materials
• Temporary works including traffic lights - check if temporary works are scheduled before reporting
• Overhanging tree branches, hedges
• Mud/debris on the road
• Mixing concrete or mortar on the highway
• Unauthorised vendors or traders
• Encroachment of highway boundaries *
• Discharge of water onto the highway
• Blocking "Rights of Way"
• Plants and bushes
• Illegal signs

[HP Mum]

thanks notodebt - most useful.   As a starting point in my "pcn contest" have made an official report to council of a highway obstruction.

The date to respond to the 1st ticket is 26th (discounted deadline).  Am working on my contest now.

Edited November 24, 2020 by HP Mum

[Michael Browne]

26 minutes ago, HP Mum said:

 

The date to respond to the 1st ticket is 26th (discounted deadline).  Am working on my contest now.

Previously you said the 1st pcn was on 10th Nov, if so the deadline is today

[HP Mum]

Thanks Michael - Yes, that's what I thought too - but the note on their website said 26th.   However, I have today - the 24th - submitted the complaint for the 1st pcn so all is good.  Thanks for your continued support.   Much appreciated.

 

I will address the other two pcn's tomorrow.   I guess my submission will be identical to todays?   Other than I need to add in the bit you suggested about "continuous contravention"...

 

Edited November 24, 2020 by HP Mum

[Michael Browne]

Personally , for 2nd & 3rd, I'd forget about leaves obscuring the DYL's.  

 

In the council pics taken 10 days before yours, the DYL's can be seen and there is nothing like the amount of leaves as in your pics and they wll reject on those grounds alone.

 

Far better to concentrate solely on "continuous contravention" as they then have no wriggle room and if they reject must justify why.

 

Mention that their own photographic evidence from all 3 pcn's show the vehicle in the same position, confirming that the vehicle did not move for the whole period

 

 

Edited November 24, 2020 by Michael Browne

[HP Mum]

Ok. Thanks.  Will compose best response tomorrow.  

[HP Mum]

I submitted the other two complaints on the continuous contravention grounds as advised.  I referenced the other grounds too - highway obstruction and no signs.

I wait to hear....

[Jamberson]

I missed this post, but just reading through it - I hope you have not just made complaints, but have followed the appeals process? You must do that!

 

OK, leaves aren't fixed in place. You were ticketed on three separate days. There should be three sets of council photos taken on different days. Is your argument that, when you arrived, the lines were hidden by leaves so you had no idea they were there? If so, compare that with the photos the council has to see what the road looked like when the CEO arrived on the scene each time. That will give you a good base-line idea of how strong a case you have.

 

If the lines genuinely were completely obscured every day, you could possibly win an appeal on the lack of clear markings.

 

 

Edited December 6, 2020 by Jamberson

[HP Mum]

Hi - I went on to the council site and for each pcn submitted a reason against it.  I assume this is the "appeal process" you mean?  The site sent an auto-reply each time (x3) to say the fine was on hold whilst they look into my response.

 

I attached photos of how the site looked when I collected the car - leaves completely covering lines.   

I hadn't taken photos when I arrived - there was no need to as I thought it was a free parking zone - ie leaves covering lines and no signs notifying motorists of restrictions.

 

The photos they submitted partially showed some yellow lines.   But tbh perhaps the CEO had kicked them? Because he knew they were there?  Just to present evidence?   No lines were visible when I parked. And weren't visible when I collected.   When I moved the car I got out to inspect the area.   Leaves were still covering the yellow lines where the tyres had been - which indicates leaves had covered them when I parked.

Edited December 6, 2020 by HP Mum