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    • Please do although obviously I don’t know the facts from your side but at least I can tell you how much of a cut and paste job it is.
    • Please check back for a full reply tomorrow. However, it would help if you would introduce pergo spaces into a story full stop it's very long and especially for people with small screens it's very difficult to follow when it is so compacted.   I think this straight has become rather confused because of the third party account which we received at the outset. I think it will probably be helpful if you could repost your story but on a new thread and more openly spaced please.   Then we can start to have a closer look at it. However, as I've already suggested, I think there are two issues. The question of your liability in the accident and the problem of how you have been persuaded to take a rental car at such a high rate.    I would suggest that you hold off telephoneing anyone until we have had a closer look.before you do anything on the telephone. You have obviously had some very important conversations but you don't have any evidence of them. Although the other side may say that they have recorded them, you you may find it difficult to get hold of those recordings if in fact those recordings incriminate them in any way. for instance if they have promised you that you don't have to pay anything for the hire car, that would be an extremely useful conversation to have but you may find that it is difficult to get hold of.   please start a new thread it will be much easier to continue from there                                
    • When I sadly lost my job a while back, i reportd it immpediately to DWP as you are supposed to, but didnt realise at the time that the day I reported to them was the day before I was paid out for the last month. I was actually paid extra whem I left as it was cheaper than redundancy fort the business and at the time it was a good financial move (so I thought).   I was paid on Fri 26th Jan, they paid me out 2 months in one go. I reported to DWP on the 22nd of Han that I was made unemployed, had the letters and evidence. As they spun the story, because of their assesment dates and that, my first payment was on the 1st May and reassured that it works the other way around. That when work starts again, if I dont actually receive money from the company during the assesment period, there wont be an issue as it balances up.   Can I believe this or was it another spun story? I'm concerned that as I'll be paid monthly, (Starting on the 15th paid on the last day of the month), assment ends on the 22nd. Tha they'll take that money into consideration.   I'm just concerned due to the disparity it would cause between 4 odd months I endured with zero income because of how their system works and whatever they ahe in place to counter at this end of the claim.   Anywa, it's just awonder.   Cheers,   Ade    
    • Hi, OP sister here, im going to try and explaine in full details from start to present and see if you have any advice for me on what i can do. on 15/1/2021  at 16:25pm i was traveling along hazlebarrow cresent wich is on my estate at around 30mph, its a tight road with cars parked along the left hand side, as i proceeded through, a van ( which was parked on my left hand side, facing towards me) pulled out from the side of the road, he stopped the van wich resulted in the van being at an angled stationary position on the road. I breaked immediately but the ice and snow skidded my tyers, i skidded into the drivers side of his van, my car bounced off his van and sent my vehicle head first into the back of a parked car ( wich was originally parked at the back of the van before he set off from the side of the road. I will refer to the van driver as MR seddon. ( im going to attatch a street veiw picture and diagram wich will be more helpful in understanding how the accident accured ect) .  The owner of the parked car, which i will refer to as Mr simpson came out of his house. Myself, mr seddon and mr simpson exchanged details and took photos, then i left the scene as my first concern, understandably was to contact my midwife and the hospital. I live just round the corner from the scene of the accident so i slowly drove my car to my property. I contacted Go skippy the next day 16/1/21 and informed them of the accident and gave them all the details ect . by the following monday 18/1/21 i had a call from AX who said they was dealing with my claim as go skippy will not deal with it as i am third party insured. Over the next few days, i complied with their requests ( gave them a written statment of what happened, sent them pictures of the damage to my vehicle and mr seddons van ect). Then on the 19/1/21 AX contacted me again and asked if i need a curtesy vehicle, my first response was ' how much will that cost me?' Of which she replied ' nothing because your insurance covers the cost'. I agreed to the curtesy vehicle and the vehicle was delivered to me on the 20/1/21.  Over the coming weeks, AX and i had regular contact about my claim and updated me in regards to my own vehicle. At one point she said it could be deemed a 50/50 liability. an engineer had collectes my car, deemed in a total loss as the damage was more than 66% of its total value and written my car off . i had a call from a lady from AX and she said they have valued the car and i will be payed out £2200 . i asked when and she said ' we will send you a cheque out for £358 in the post, and the remaining balance will be payed out by Admirel but this may take a few weeks more' .  I didnt hear nothing for around 2 weeks so i comtacted AX again for an update, she told me that admirel are refusing liability and there now in dispute. Every time i contacted them they said the same thing ' admirel are refusing liability' i asked them why admirel consider themSelf not liable and she read from the notes ' mr seddon said he was driving along the road, the corsa ( my vehicle) was at high speed coming towards me , i beeped my horn and tried moving out of the way but i couldnt because of the ice and the snow and the corsa hit my van' . the lady at AX said the problem is that the damage to both our vehicles is consistant with both our stories and due to there being no witnesses, no cctv or dash cam footage- no one can prove who is at fault. I then questioned why i had been told i was being paid out £2200 and she said 'well we have to advice you the estimated value' of wich i replied 'no, there was no 'advice' - i was told it was a done deal i was getting paid £2200 and she told me i had a cheque arriving in the post!!!.  The lady then told me she had requested a ' none prejudice payment' from admirel and waiting for a response.   Shortly after this phone call, AX contacted me again and asked if i had the funds to repair my own vehicle or buy another one, ( im.assuming admirel refused to pay the ' none prejudice payment) I told them No i do not as i have a baby due and even if i did have the funds, why on earth would i fork out to repair my own vehicle when i wasnt at fault ?! . she said ok im going to pass this to managment and see what we can do .   I contacted AX again and asked for an update and expressed how unhappy i was with their service as i felt like they hadnt fought my corner, bowed down to admirel and then had the cheek to ask me to repair my own vehicle . again she said ' its still in dispute, admirel are not budging i have to pass this on to management. She then asked me for 3 months bank statements to 'prove' i dont have the funds to repair my vehicle myself. I thought this was ridiculous and stated that even if i had the funds, why would i repair my own vehicle when im.not at fault!? Obviously this has been on going since middle of january, pretty fed up. My brother come to this forum and you guys had mentioned the hire car rates may fall back on me. I contacted AX first thing this morning regarding this. I made it clear that they can collect the vehicle to stop the daily charges as i do not want to be in thousands of pounds worth of debt when i am a lone parent with a new born baby. and the lady told me ' we will try every avenue to recover the cost from Admirel for the hire car charges, if this means taking them to court, even if this is unsuccessful, considering you comply with your hire vehicle contract and you work with us with your claim ( which you have been doing) you will not be liable for this debt and if worst comes to worst and admirel will not pay, we will just wipe the debt off' . i made her repeat several times that i will not be liable for this debt and she said i have told you my name, and these calls are recordered and i am telling you that this debt will not be on you to pay . She then said that if i was to give AX the hire car back now, then it would jepordise everything. And she said ' we gave you that hire vehicle because we beleive your not at fault so you can keep using it as we know you need transport' I then questioned the need for bank statements again and she told me the reason they need bank statements is so if it goes to court - AX can justify why i needed the hire car for so long ( because i didnt have the funds to repair my vehicle or buy another one) and also so they can prove they have tried every root possible.    After the phonecall it got me thinking about how she said ' aslong as you comply with your hire car contract your not liable for any charges for the hire car' . will they find any fault with the contract just to try and lumber me with the debt? , as it seems pretty fishy how they would just ' wipe off' thousands of pounds if admirel refuse to pay.  And also, she said if i gave the hire car back it would jepodise the case . so when the lady rang me the other week asking if i had funds to repair or buy myself a new vehicle , if i had said yes, ill buy a car tomorrow and come collect the curtesy one. Then what? Wouldnt that ' jepodise' the case?    As you can imagaine, my heads spinning. Stressed and dont know what to do. I dont even care about a pay out , i just want to give the hire car back and be completely done with AX . but now im scared if i give the car back i will be lumbered with thousand of pounds worth of debt from the hire car charges.  Tomorow i am going to read thoroughly through the ' hire car contract' . i am going to give them another call and record them saying i am not liable for the debt. Any advice on how i can just give the hire car back to them without me being liable to pay the debt?  Thank you Gemma
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No signs/ leaves covering lines - PCN complaint??

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Just wondering if anyone has successfully argued against a PCN when there was no sign indicating parking restrictions and leaves were covering lines?


I parked car for 2 weeks in a free parking zone.  It was a residential street with free parking down one side.  I parked car in the last spot at the end of the road in a dead-end.

There were 2 areas allocated for residential parking - clearly marked with black/white signs.   The car was parked in front of a lamp post and no sign was attached to that.   There were no other signs in the road - nothing to indicate restrictions or free parking.   The council website states the street is a free parking zone.

Yet when I collected the car - there were 3 tickets on the windscreen - £110/each (of £55 if pay early).   


Turns out that there were double yellow lines exactly where I had parked the car - but they were completely covered in a thick pile of leaves.    Only visible by kicking them.   And even then they were also faint.   There were no other lines on that side of the road.  It was a dead-end.   There is no way a normal driver would have expected there would be lines in that spot - the one spot in an otherwise free parking street.


I took loads of photos.   And I intend to write this weekend to try get them cancelled.

Has anyone else been in a similar situation and succeeded in cancellations?




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Can you give us the street name and postcode of where you parked please? People may be able to look it up. It's possible some of your photos will be useful, but I'll leave the people in the know to ask you.



Illegitimi non carborundum




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You will certainly be able to have the last two cancelled on the grounds that,  since the vehicle was not moved during the whole period, it was a  'continuous contravention', where the convention is  that you cannot be punished more than once for a single offence.  The council may well reject that, but you would almost certainly win at adjudication, particularly since DYL's are 24/7 , ie not an intermittent restriction and therefore you were in contnuous contravention for the whole period you were parked there.


The first pcn is more contentious and would rely heavily on whether the councils pics show the leaves totally obscuring the DYL.


There should be pics on Richmonds website.



Edited by Michael Browne
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7 minutes ago, HP Mum said:

i have had a quick look at their site.

There is a difference between my photos and theirs

That doesn't tell us much! Show us. Have you looked the pics for all 3 pcns. Even if they don't back up the leaves an gle ,  they may help confirm the vehicle didn't move.



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attached are photos I took at the time of collection. 

I did first move the car and start driving off.  Then I realised i should take photos.  So I returned and took these photos - with my black car in situ and with it not in situ.    

It wasnt until I kicked the leaves that I could see there were yellow lines.   

I will see if I can now download the council pics


20-11-2020 car pcn pics.docx 20-11-2020 car pcn pics.pdf

Edited by HP Mum
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attached are photos I took at the time of collection. 

I did first move the car and start driving off.  Then I realised i should take photos.  So I returned and took these photos - with my black car in situ and with it not in situ.    

It wasnt until I kicked the leaves that I could see there were yellow lines.   

I will see if I can now download the council pics

20-11-2020 car pcn pics.pdf

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You need to submit a challenge for each pcn (separately, but refer to the others) before 24th Nov. 1st one DYL were totally obscured by leaves, 2nd and 3rd 'continuous contravention'.


They will reject, but re-offer the discount. At that point you will have to decide whether to continue with  all 3, thus losing the discount or accept you were in contravention, pay the discount on the first and be prepared to dispuute the continuous ones as far as adjudication if necessary.


You would be risking the full penalrty on both but there have been numerous Tribunal cases to support this ground:- 2110166557, 2140191859, 2140184092, 2140234882


Going by your pics (and without seeing the councils) personally I'd take all 3 to adjudicaion,  you'd almost certainly win the last two and would be risking the full penalty on the 1st.

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have attached the richmond photos.

in their photos the lines are showing at the end.

If the lines had shown when I parked - in daylight - i would have noticed.


I have a further problem.   I can't afford to pay.  

Not the discount, not the full amount.

I am on a benefit that per month equals the amount of the total of all 3 tickets full value. 

20-11-2020 Richmond pcn pics.pdf

Edited by HP Mum
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i haven't really been driving.  Its why I parked in a control free zone.  This is why the discovery of these lines is such a shock to me.

I've been cycling mostly instead.  Yesterday wasn't a very good day - first these tickets and then my locked-up bike was stolen 😪

Really cut up about it all

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As long as you challenge before 24th the pcns will be on hold until they reply. I don't know how efficient Richmond are, but it could be 5-6 weeks.(esp with covid)  If rejected, as is likely, they will allow a further 14 days for the discount, so that's 7-8 weeks before anything has to be paid. As  I said, it's only at that point will you have to decide whether to continue with  all 3, thus losing the discount or accept you were in contravention, pay the discount on the first and be prepared to dispuute the continuous ones as far as adjudication if necessary.


To get to adjudication , the council has to send a Notice to Owner (28days after the 14 day discount runs out,)  You then have 28days to make representations to the NtO and they then must reject within 56 days. You then have 28 days to appeal to adjudication which at the moment are taking 10-12 weeks or longer. In other words, it could be April or May before you reach adjudication with a good chance of 2nd and 3rd pcns being cancelled. But be warned you must keep on top of everything , adhere to the timesclaes for each pcn and not let things slip, it will involve a fair amount of work on your part.


Looking at the council pics, I can't see an adjudicator allowing an appeal on the 1st pcn on the basis of obscured DYL's

Edited by Michael Browne
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I would challenge all the way !


Check one of my posts as I had a similar issue with my local authority , tree branches and bush covering sign. Took photos same day and a week later lo and behold the branches were cut back. Not my issue the council does not maintain the highways.


Looking at your photos how could you tell there were any lines?

Of course the council threw it straight back so I appealed and went to the next level and submitted my photos as evidence , they backed down then although still did not admit defeat and stated it as a goodwill gesture...


I got some great advice on here so don't be stressed or worried follow the guidelines on here. Either way they are going to try to force you to pay so don't give the @$$ holes an easy ride....


If I have the correct local authority check these links 






second link has the following :


  • Builders' skips – check if a skip is licensed before reporting
  • Scaffolding or hoardings
  • Builders materials
  • Temporary works including traffic lights - check if temporary works are scheduled before reporting
  • Overhanging tree branches, hedges
  • Mud/debris on the road
  • Mixing concrete or mortar on the highway
  • Unauthorised vendors or traders
  • Encroachment of highway boundaries *
  • Discharge of water onto the highway
  • Blocking "Rights of Way"
  • Plants and bushes
  • Illegal signs
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thanks notodebt - most useful.   As a starting point in my "pcn contest" have made an official report to council of a highway obstruction.

The date to respond to the 1st ticket is 26th (discounted deadline).  Am working on my contest now.

Edited by HP Mum
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Thanks Michael - Yes, that's what I thought too - but the note on their website said 26th.   However, I have today - the 24th - submitted the complaint for the 1st pcn so all is good.  Thanks for your continued support.   Much appreciated.


I will address the other two pcn's tomorrow.   I guess my submission will be identical to todays?   Other than I need to add in the bit you suggested about "continuous contravention"...


Edited by HP Mum
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Personally , for 2nd & 3rd, I'd forget about leaves obscuring the DYL's.  


In the council pics taken 10 days before yours, the DYL's can be seen and there is nothing like the amount of leaves as in your pics and they wll reject on those grounds alone.


Far better to concentrate solely on "continuous contravention" as they then have no wriggle room and if they reject must justify why.


Mention that their own photographic evidence from all 3 pcn's show the vehicle in the same position, confirming that the vehicle did not move for the whole period



Edited by Michael Browne
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I submitted the other two complaints on the continuous contravention grounds as advised.  I referenced the other grounds too - highway obstruction and no signs.

I wait to hear....

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