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    • It takes a long time to agree trade deals because there are so many aspects to consider.    UK companies trade with US consumers including US Government every day of the year, with the previous trade arrangements still in place.   There is no hurry to agree a new trade deal. It takes thousands of civil servants in both Governments to go into every aspect and they just don't have the people available to do this work.    
    • Hi thanks so much for the update and all the information. I will get my reading glasses on and look at the claim info and court info.  I agree let’s proceed issuing a letter straight away.  I am happy to stump the fees for court and am confident we will win.  The police officer I have dealt with has secured further CCTV evidence which I will ask a solicitor friend to get hold of from the Hermes parcel shop should we need any further evidence the parcel was dropped and collected.  Once I have read all the pages on here I will start putting the letter together and post on here for further advice.  thanks again,  mark 
    • The reason that I have indicated that it is the seller who should bring an action against Hermes is not because they are the seller – but because they are the person who suffered the loss. If you haven't suffered a loss then you probably don't have the status – locus standi – to bring a court action. Of course there is a slight problem that you didn't enter into the contract with Hermes – the purchaser did. Until 1999 this would have been a problem and would have prevented you from bringing any kind of action at all – at least on the basis of contract. However, since 1999, the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act gives the beneficiary of any contract full third party rights as if they were a contracting party. The only exception to this is that if the contract specifically excluded non-contracting parties – and I'm not aware that Hermes has yet amended their contract to try and prevent this. Of course as usual, Hermes will make a big point about the fact that no insurance was purchased. Hopefully you have been reading around the threads on this sub- forum and you have seen that our view is that it is completely unfair and in fact it is absurd to require a customer to pay money to protect Hermes or any other service provider from the consequences of their own negligence or the criminality of their own employees. Every time this point has been raised with Hermes in mediation, Hermes have settled and we consider that it is because they want to avoid going to court to get a definitive judgement that their insurance scam – is precisely that – a scam. On the basis of what I understand here, this is more than just negligence there is criminality and your bike has been stolen. You've already begun a complaint and you have been knocked back and so I think there's no point in mucking around and I think that you should simply issue a letter of claim to Hermes giving them 14 days to settle in full or else you will begin a court action. Make sure that you have read around the forum about taking a small claim in the County Court. It's very easy but you need to be aware of the steps. If you send the letter of claim, then don't expect that they are suddenly going to refund you your money. They won't. They will force you to issue the court papers and who will then force you to pay the hearing fee. At this point, they will opt for mediation and they will try to knock you down and get your compromise in your claim. You should stand your ground and refused to compromise even a single penny. We will help you all the way. You seem to be a seller and a purchaser here who are getting on very well together and so as you are motivated by a common purpose, you may want to get an agreement where you decide to share the fees of court action – which won't be very much. I haven't checked the court fees for this value claim – but I expect that the whole thing will be only about £120. Of course you will get that back when you win – but bear in mind there is a is a slight risk factor and that means that £120 would be the extent of your risk and would be the maximum that you would lose. It is inconceivable that you would lose. You should be claiming the cost of the bike, the cost of delivery, plus interest which is presently 8% – a very good rate in today's economic climate. Of course you will also claim back your court fees. If you want to proceed then please let us know and let us know also that you have read around the stories and also the steps involved taking a small claim in the County Court and that you understand what you are doing. If you do your basic reading over the next couple of days then we can help you draft a letter of claim on Sunday and you can send it off on Monday. I would recommend that you post your draft letter of claim on this forum so we can check it. Keep it short and to the point.
    • That's what keeps divorce lawyers and mediators in work, I suppose. You think he's being unreasonable and he thinks you are.   My gut feeling is that it would be better to have this agreed in writing so it can't be challenged later, but that's just my opinion. Here's more information from the CAB in case it covers something you haven't already considered.   HB
    • Biden doesn't seem bothered about negotiating a trade treaty to suit the UK government's timetable. I don't suppose they saw this coming, not that the amount of trade involved makes up for what's being lost with Europe anyway.   https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-boris-johnson-usa-trade-deal-b1807616.html
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    • I sent in the bailiffs to the BBC. They collected £350. It made me smile.
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    • Hi @BankFodder
      Sorry for only updating you now, but after your guidance with submitting the claim it was pretty straight forward and I didn't want to unnecessarily waste your time. Especially with this guide you wrote here, so many thanks for that
      So I issued the claim on day 15 and they requested more time to respond.
      They took until the last day to respond and denied the claim, unsurprisingly saying my contract was with Packlink and not with them.
      I opted for mediation, and it played out very similarly to other people's experiences.
      In the first call I outlined my case, and I referred to the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 as the reason to why I do in fact have a contract with them. 
      In the second call the mediator came back with an offer of the full amount of the phone and postage £146.93, but not the court costs. I said I was not willing to accept this and the mediator came across as a bit irritated that I would not accept this and said I should be flexible. I insisted that the law was on my side and I was willing to take them to court. The mediator went back to Hermes with what I said.
      In the third call the mediator said that they would offer the full amount. However, he said that Hermes still thought that I should have taken the case against Packlink instead, and that they would try to recover the court costs themselves from Packlink.
      To be fair to them, if Packlink wasn't based in Spain I would've made the claim against them instead. But since they are overseas and the law lets me take action against Hermes directly, it's the best way of trying to recover the money.
      So this is a great win. Thank you so much for your help and all of the resources available on this site. It has helped me so much especially as someone who does not know anything about making money claims.
      Many thanks, stay safe and have a good Christmas!
        • Thanks
    • Hermes and mediation hints. https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/428981-hermes-and-mediation-hints/&do=findComment&comment=5080003
      • 1 reply
    • Natwest Bank Transfer Fraud Call HMRC Please help. https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/428951-natwest-bank-transfer-fraud-call-hmrc-please-help/&do=findComment&comment=5079786
      • 33 replies

No signs/ leaves covering lines - PCN complaint??

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Just wondering if anyone has successfully argued against a PCN when there was no sign indicating parking restrictions and leaves were covering lines?


I parked car for 2 weeks in a free parking zone.  It was a residential street with free parking down one side.  I parked car in the last spot at the end of the road in a dead-end.

There were 2 areas allocated for residential parking - clearly marked with black/white signs.   The car was parked in front of a lamp post and no sign was attached to that.   There were no other signs in the road - nothing to indicate restrictions or free parking.   The council website states the street is a free parking zone.

Yet when I collected the car - there were 3 tickets on the windscreen - £110/each (of £55 if pay early).   


Turns out that there were double yellow lines exactly where I had parked the car - but they were completely covered in a thick pile of leaves.    Only visible by kicking them.   And even then they were also faint.   There were no other lines on that side of the road.  It was a dead-end.   There is no way a normal driver would have expected there would be lines in that spot - the one spot in an otherwise free parking street.


I took loads of photos.   And I intend to write this weekend to try get them cancelled.

Has anyone else been in a similar situation and succeeded in cancellations?




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Can you give us the street name and postcode of where you parked please? People may be able to look it up. It's possible some of your photos will be useful, but I'll leave the people in the know to ask you.



Illegitimi non carborundum




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You will certainly be able to have the last two cancelled on the grounds that,  since the vehicle was not moved during the whole period, it was a  'continuous contravention', where the convention is  that you cannot be punished more than once for a single offence.  The council may well reject that, but you would almost certainly win at adjudication, particularly since DYL's are 24/7 , ie not an intermittent restriction and therefore you were in contnuous contravention for the whole period you were parked there.


The first pcn is more contentious and would rely heavily on whether the councils pics show the leaves totally obscuring the DYL.


There should be pics on Richmonds website.



Edited by Michael Browne
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7 minutes ago, HP Mum said:

i have had a quick look at their site.

There is a difference between my photos and theirs

That doesn't tell us much! Show us. Have you looked the pics for all 3 pcns. Even if they don't back up the leaves an gle ,  they may help confirm the vehicle didn't move.



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attached are photos I took at the time of collection. 

I did first move the car and start driving off.  Then I realised i should take photos.  So I returned and took these photos - with my black car in situ and with it not in situ.    

It wasnt until I kicked the leaves that I could see there were yellow lines.   

I will see if I can now download the council pics


20-11-2020 car pcn pics.docx 20-11-2020 car pcn pics.pdf

Edited by HP Mum
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attached are photos I took at the time of collection. 

I did first move the car and start driving off.  Then I realised i should take photos.  So I returned and took these photos - with my black car in situ and with it not in situ.    

It wasnt until I kicked the leaves that I could see there were yellow lines.   

I will see if I can now download the council pics

20-11-2020 car pcn pics.pdf

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You need to submit a challenge for each pcn (separately, but refer to the others) before 24th Nov. 1st one DYL were totally obscured by leaves, 2nd and 3rd 'continuous contravention'.


They will reject, but re-offer the discount. At that point you will have to decide whether to continue with  all 3, thus losing the discount or accept you were in contravention, pay the discount on the first and be prepared to dispuute the continuous ones as far as adjudication if necessary.


You would be risking the full penalrty on both but there have been numerous Tribunal cases to support this ground:- 2110166557, 2140191859, 2140184092, 2140234882


Going by your pics (and without seeing the councils) personally I'd take all 3 to adjudicaion,  you'd almost certainly win the last two and would be risking the full penalty on the 1st.

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have attached the richmond photos.

in their photos the lines are showing at the end.

If the lines had shown when I parked - in daylight - i would have noticed.


I have a further problem.   I can't afford to pay.  

Not the discount, not the full amount.

I am on a benefit that per month equals the amount of the total of all 3 tickets full value. 

20-11-2020 Richmond pcn pics.pdf

Edited by HP Mum
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i haven't really been driving.  Its why I parked in a control free zone.  This is why the discovery of these lines is such a shock to me.

I've been cycling mostly instead.  Yesterday wasn't a very good day - first these tickets and then my locked-up bike was stolen 😪

Really cut up about it all

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As long as you challenge before 24th the pcns will be on hold until they reply. I don't know how efficient Richmond are, but it could be 5-6 weeks.(esp with covid)  If rejected, as is likely, they will allow a further 14 days for the discount, so that's 7-8 weeks before anything has to be paid. As  I said, it's only at that point will you have to decide whether to continue with  all 3, thus losing the discount or accept you were in contravention, pay the discount on the first and be prepared to dispuute the continuous ones as far as adjudication if necessary.


To get to adjudication , the council has to send a Notice to Owner (28days after the 14 day discount runs out,)  You then have 28days to make representations to the NtO and they then must reject within 56 days. You then have 28 days to appeal to adjudication which at the moment are taking 10-12 weeks or longer. In other words, it could be April or May before you reach adjudication with a good chance of 2nd and 3rd pcns being cancelled. But be warned you must keep on top of everything , adhere to the timesclaes for each pcn and not let things slip, it will involve a fair amount of work on your part.


Looking at the council pics, I can't see an adjudicator allowing an appeal on the 1st pcn on the basis of obscured DYL's

Edited by Michael Browne
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I would challenge all the way !


Check one of my posts as I had a similar issue with my local authority , tree branches and bush covering sign. Took photos same day and a week later lo and behold the branches were cut back. Not my issue the council does not maintain the highways.


Looking at your photos how could you tell there were any lines?

Of course the council threw it straight back so I appealed and went to the next level and submitted my photos as evidence , they backed down then although still did not admit defeat and stated it as a goodwill gesture...


I got some great advice on here so don't be stressed or worried follow the guidelines on here. Either way they are going to try to force you to pay so don't give the @$$ holes an easy ride....


If I have the correct local authority check these links 






second link has the following :


  • Builders' skips – check if a skip is licensed before reporting
  • Scaffolding or hoardings
  • Builders materials
  • Temporary works including traffic lights - check if temporary works are scheduled before reporting
  • Overhanging tree branches, hedges
  • Mud/debris on the road
  • Mixing concrete or mortar on the highway
  • Unauthorised vendors or traders
  • Encroachment of highway boundaries *
  • Discharge of water onto the highway
  • Blocking "Rights of Way"
  • Plants and bushes
  • Illegal signs
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thanks notodebt - most useful.   As a starting point in my "pcn contest" have made an official report to council of a highway obstruction.

The date to respond to the 1st ticket is 26th (discounted deadline).  Am working on my contest now.

Edited by HP Mum
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Thanks Michael - Yes, that's what I thought too - but the note on their website said 26th.   However, I have today - the 24th - submitted the complaint for the 1st pcn so all is good.  Thanks for your continued support.   Much appreciated.


I will address the other two pcn's tomorrow.   I guess my submission will be identical to todays?   Other than I need to add in the bit you suggested about "continuous contravention"...


Edited by HP Mum
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Personally , for 2nd & 3rd, I'd forget about leaves obscuring the DYL's.  


In the council pics taken 10 days before yours, the DYL's can be seen and there is nothing like the amount of leaves as in your pics and they wll reject on those grounds alone.


Far better to concentrate solely on "continuous contravention" as they then have no wriggle room and if they reject must justify why.


Mention that their own photographic evidence from all 3 pcn's show the vehicle in the same position, confirming that the vehicle did not move for the whole period



Edited by Michael Browne
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I submitted the other two complaints on the continuous contravention grounds as advised.  I referenced the other grounds too - highway obstruction and no signs.

I wait to hear....

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