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Crystal Clear Ltd in Letchworth - Admitted Wrong Glass Supplied - Am I entitled to a refund?


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Hi.

I ordered windows which I received 5th of this month, they were ordered with a bespoke glass specification.

The company (or the glazier they used, they're cagey about exactly what happened) messed up the glass order

I got a different, lower thermal performance specification.

 

I would like to keep the frames and reorder the glass myself, and have asked for my money back on the cost of the glass.

They are refusing to do this citing their terms and conditions, saying they will only reorder the glass to my original specification.

 

I don't want to do this as

1) this is the second time this has happened to me

- I ordered windows from a different company 8 years ago and they sent glazing with aluminium spacers instead of warm edge

 

2) I don't trust them, as I specifically asked them to confirm the spec would be as per my request some time before the order was received and was told it would be exactly as requested on my signed quote.

 

There's no question they've got the order wrong, I have written admission as such from the head of customer services and written confirmation from the glazier they used of the difference in what I asked for and what I got (together with detailed pdf's of the glazing spec). The problem is the stubborn refusal to refund. Their T&C's say:-

 

3.5 Cancellation - All Crystal products are ‘made to measure’ This means that where goods have been manufactured ‘made to measure’ due a customer’s specifications, they will become non-returnable and non-refundable. Due to the timescale involved in producing ‘bespoke’ items, Crystal will provide a 24 hour cooling off period from the time that the order is placed. After this time has elapsed, production will begin and the right to cancel will be removed. This will not affect your statutory rights with regards to damaged goods.

 

My argument is they haven't been 'made to measure' due to a customer's specifications, because they got the spec wrong and made them to some other spec of their own, as soon as they got it wrong they aren't bespoke anymore. I'd also argue the glazing effectively isn't as described/the goods don't match the contract and I'm therefore entitled to a refund as I'm still within 30 days. 

 

Am I entitled to a refund in law?!

 

Thanks in advance

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IMHO you are correct.

we see SOO many retailers try and pull the 'made to measure ' or 'bespoke' no refund dodges , even Sofa manufactures are doing itnow.

 

they are not fit for purpose - 

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Hi Gardener and welcome to CAG

 

1. Can you confirm what company you are dealing with.

 

2. Please tell us the approx value of the order including all materials and fitting.

 

3. What was the spec for the glazing you ordered and what was supplied and installed instead.

 

4. When did you first realise/suspect the spec for the glazed units was not what you ordered.

 

5. When was the installation completed.

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Hi, thanks!

1) I don't know if that's allowed, and as I may end up taking them to small claims will politely to decline to name for the time being. After it's all dealt with, sure. Or you can PM me and I could tell you (if that's possible on here, I've just joined so still figuring it out).

2) Just over £1800, however the glass cost, the part I'm asking for a refund on, is ~£1190. The frames are fine.

3) 40mm triple glazed, warm edge spacer, argon, Planiclear glass throughout, Planitherm One T inner two panes to hit U value of 0.6. None of it's installed, it was supply only, I plan to install myself once I have the right glazing. Spec supplied was Planitherm Total+ instead of Planitherm One T. U value ends up 0.7.

4) A couple of days after, when I checked the label and couldn't find mention of the glass I was expecting. It was something else called Thermaglass. I made further enquiries with the supplier, who admitted they'd got the wrong glass. 

5) It's not done yet, it's all still sitting around unused till it's dealt with!

 

Incidentally, I realised earlier this evening that as I'm a member of Unison, I'm allowed 30 minutes free legal advice. So I'll called them and left details, and they're going to e-mail me by the end of Monday. I have e-mailed Citizen's Advice too and asked them to complain to trading standards provided I'm right and I am entitled to a (partial in this case) refund. Will feed back when I have more info so people can benefit!

 

cheers :)

 

Edited by Gardener_41
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it is allowed so name and shame

no good hiding details if you wish to action this.

old wives tale not to tip them off 

 

shaming in public normally has far more effect in getting a refund because future business in terms of people looking for reviews/info upon how they deal with issues in the first place hits them hard....a later court claim can still be issued...

 

 

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Hi Gardener,

 

I suggest the supplier is wholly responsible for the order, and for any discrepancy about the specification of the glass. The glass units would be supplied by the fabricator, not  any separate glazier.

 

1. Do you have written confirmation, from you to the supplier or from the supplier to you, of the exact spec for the glass units.

 

2. When you complained about the spec of the glass units, was this by phone, in person  or in writing.

 

Regardless of events to date, make no further verbal contact with the supplier. Further contact from you to the supplier should be in writing only.

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Hi. Yes I have confirmation. I only signed their quote after merging a PDF of the glass spec I wanted into their quote and labelling it as the appendix, adding to the additional notes saying all glass as per the spec in the appendix on page 1 and signing it on page 1. Their quote says on that page in bold 'only sign off when you are sure all is correct'.

 

I also have written confirmation from their head of customer services that 'they ordered the wrong glass' and written confirmation from the glazier they used with PDF details (in a lot of detail) of the two different specs, the one I got and the one I wanted. Main point was the U value was higher than I ordered because they used the wrong low E glass.

 

I've complained many times mostly by e-mail, I tend to do this to maintain an audit trail. I haven't actually managed to speak to their head of customer services yet.

 

I realized yesterday I could get limited free legal advice as I'm a member of Unison, so I called them up and I should get a response tomorrow hopefully. I find it ridiculous that if they screw up, they think I'm obliged to let them keep trying? I want to take my business/money elsewhere.

 

I have also e-mail Citizen's advice, and asked them to complain to trading standards. Will see where I get.

 

I've repeatedly asked for a refund, I understand it's 30 days on right to reject. My lack of clarity is on whether if it's a bespoke item I am allowed to reject if they screw it up and claim a refund, or whether they have the right to try again.

 

You could argue (and I have) because they screwed up the spec, it wasn't made to my specifications, it was made to theirs. I suppose they could argue it's still a bespoke item because it's based on my overall window sizes (I wasn't using off shelf sizes).

 

Apart from anything else, I don't see that it should make much difference to them - they lose money on the glass either way (ca. £1200).

 

I did present an option to take the units at significantly reduced price which would have worked out cheaper for them, but they didn't take it, they just want to remake the glass.

Edited by slick132
Spacing added to make post legible. Please don't use large blocks of text
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4 hours ago, Gardener_41 said:

I did present an option to take the units at significantly reduced price which would have worked out cheaper for them, but they didn't take it, they just want to remake the glass.

They just want to remake the glass ?? To your original spec ?? Wouldn't that be ok for you ?

 

How did you pay for the order -  debit card, credit card, or other ? 

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Debit card.

 

As I said, this is the second time this has happened to me.

Plus I've not had an explanation of exactly how this happened, despite asking.

 

I know their reassurance when I asked for confirmation the glass would be to my specification was a load of rubbish, so why should I be forced to trust them again? I should have the right to take my business elsewhere and obtain a refund if they get it wrong, my problem is I'm not sure yet whether I do.

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Hi Gardener,

 

I hope @BankFodder or @dx100uk might stop by to offer opinion.

 

Although you don't have s.75 CCA  cover by using a credit card, you can ask the bank to do a chargeback for  afull refund.

 

If you got the refund (after allowing the supplier to collect the rejected goods), you would then be able to re-order the goods with the correct-specs glass units from another supplier.

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the order is not fit for purpose , the fact that part was bespoke? is immaterial and even as you say, that part was supplied wrong.

negates the bespoke clause anyway.

reject the order under CRA short term right to reject or go get a chargeback done to your bank and tellthen to come collect their property else you'll start charging storage costs per day

 

dx

 

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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  • dx100uk changed the title to Crystal Clear Ltd in Letchworth - Admitted Wrong Glass Supplied - Am I entitled to a refund?

Just to supplement the advice given by my site team colleague above, you should assert your right to reject in any event. It's important to reserve your position in the first 30 days.

This means that you must write a letter very clearly referring to the consumer rights act and to your right to reject the item within the first 30 days because it is defective. Send this letter by recorded delivery – and by email as well if you can. This is a very important step in addition to anything else.

Then if there are any problems in respect of a chargeback, you will be able to demonstrate to your bank that is you have formally asserted your right to reject, you now have an entitlement to a refund and that your bank must cooperate

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Good point.

 

I was going to wait till Thursday as I'm getting some free legal advice then. I'm only 90% sure I'm right.

 

I have till 5th Dec in theory...I was thinking wait and get the legal advice, then send a letter before action addressed to "Dear CEO" or similar immediately once I'm 100% confident I do have the right to reject and send it back. I have already requested a refund several times.

 

The company are now it would seem just not responding to my phone calls/e-mails (I sent several over the weekend, maybe I'll get a response tomorrow but not holding my breath).

 

I could send the letter now.

Would you reject the whole order?

 

I'd be happy to keep the frames, but if it's necessary to send them back too in order to get my money back I'll happily do it - I guess they could be considered a commercial unit.

 

I don't think they would but what if they decided to remake the glass without my permission/agreement?! 

 

cheers,

 

Tom

 

 

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well sitting on the outside, all you really need is the correct glass, it's your indicated position that you 'don't trust them anymore' but if they were to supply the correct glass, might that not be an answer?

lot less hassle - not withstanding all to date you've put up with.

 

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Hi Gardener,

 

Is the free legal advice coming from a solicitor's free initial consultation or CAB or other.

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Please give something if you can. We all give our time free of charge but the site has bills to pay.

 

Thanks !:-)

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Hi, I'm a member of Unison, so I don't think so? As a member I can claim half an hours free legal advice, which should be enough to clarify my position.

 

 

How am I going to know if they supply the correct glass. I'm completely reliant on the label, and the glazier they've used has either a) ignored the spec they received or b) processed an order without making sure it's been signed off first by the customer. Neither is good.

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Ah yes, you mentioned this in post #8 above. I asked because sometimes, info from CAB can be lacking, weak or plain wrong.

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Hmm, good to know.

I did e-mail CAB as I mentioned, will see what they have to say.

I'll be putting the advice from an actual trained solicitor above theirs though.

 

I drafted a letter this evening, and was having a look at their T&C's.

One of these says

'No variation to the Contract shall be binding unless agreed in writing by authorised representatives of the parties.'

 

I'd say varying the spec is varying the contract, therefore I shouldn't be bound to pay for the item concerned.

Also, on their website they have the term 

 

3.5 Cancellation - All Crystal products are ‘made to measure’

This means that where goods have been manufactured ‘made to measure’ due a customer’s specifications, they will become non-returnable and non-refundable.

 

Due to the timescale involved in producing ‘bespoke’ items, Crystal will provide a 24 hour cooling off period from the time that the order is placed. After this time has elapsed, production will begin and the right to cancel will be removed. This will not affect your statutory rights with regards to damaged goods.

 

But on my *actual invoice*, term 3.5 is mysteriously missing!

I would think the T&C's on my actual invoice take precedence, although the not manufacturing to spec would negate 3.5 anyway?!

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correct.

47 minutes ago, Gardener_41 said:

I would think the T&C's on my actual invoice take precedence, although the not manufacturing to spec would negate 3.5 anyway?!

 

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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I suggest you post up any suggested letter here before sending it off to Crystal Clear.

 

Have you established if there's a UK Head Office for this company. This may be relevant regarding your complaint and any enforcement action if you go to court.

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No, though I did get a call back just this morning (from someone I'd not spoken to before at Crystal) and I now have the name of their CEO and confirmed I can write to him at the address I ordered from. Good idea though. Provisional letter below (names replaced), minor adjustments may be made following the legal advice:-

 

Quote

 

Dear CEO,

 

Reference: I am claiming a full refund on the glazing for my recent window order under my short term right to reject under the Consumer Rights Act 2015.

 

As it has not been possible to resolve this matter amicably, and it is apparent that court action may be necessary, I write in compliance with the Practice Direction on Pre-Action Conduct.

I have summarised the facts of the case below:-

 

On 04/10/20 I sent a signed PDF order across to yyyy yyyy. On the 09/10/20 I received an e-mail from xxxx with an order acknowledgement asking for my address so that she could book the order in. I replied the same day with my address and saying please note my order is not the one you've attached, it's the one I've digitally signed and amended to include additional notes, full glazing specification and details of the thermal frame reinforcement, and I attached another copy of this signed order to my reply.

On 19/10/20 I sent an e-mail specifically asking for confirmation the glazing spec would be as per the signed quote, and received a reply from xxxx stating ‘I converted the quote you signed off into an order so, whatever is on the quote paperwork that you signed is exactly what has been ordered.

On 05/11/20 I took delivery of the windows at my home address, and shortly thereafter queried the glazing specification as it did not seem to tally with what I ordered. I received an e-mail from aaaa (head of customer services) on 10/11/20 confirming that yes they had unfortunately ordered the incorrect glass for me. A later e-mail dated 12/11/20 forwarded by aaaa to myself from bbbb bbbb (senior estimator) at Custom Glass, gave full details of the glazing specification sent and that actually requested. I received glazing using ‘Thermaglas’ with the unit having a U value of 0.682 vs what was actually requested, ‘Therma One’ with a U value of 0.590 (better insulation performance).

Repeated requests for a refund on the glazing only have been met with refusal citing your terms and conditions and stating you will only reorder the glass. I would point out that this variation of specification was not by prior agreement, and hence I am not bound to pay for it under your own terms and conditions (2.3 No variation to the Contract shall be binding unless agreed in writing by authorised representatives of the parties). Additionally as the item has not been made to my specifications clause 3.5 is negated (3.5 Cancellation - All Crystal products are ‘made to measure’ This means that where goods have been manufactured ‘made to measure’ due a customer’s specifications, they will become non-returnable and non-refundable.’ Furthermore, term 3.5 is not even included in the terms and conditions listed on my invoice number 345198, it is only on the website, and hence I cannot be bound by it anyway.

 

Due to the difference in specification the sealed units are not fit for purpose and are not as described.

 

From you I am claiming a full refund of £1190.93 under my short term right to reject under the Consumer Rights Act 2015.

 

I have calculated this sum based on the total amount paid for the Windows (£1813.14) less the total cost of the frames (£622.21).

 

Listed below are the documents on which I intend to rely in my claim against you:

4-14-4-14-4 Thermaglas One.pdf

4-14-4-14-4 Thermaglas

Signed crystal quote 041020.pdf

Copies of relevant e-mails, for dates see the above summary

Invoice number 345198

 

I can confirm that I would be agreeable to mediation and would consider any other system of Alternative Dispute Resolution (ADR) in order to avoid the need for this matter to be resolved by the courts. 

I would invite you to put forward any proposals in this regard. 

 

In closing, I would draw your attention to paragraphs 15 and 16 of the Practice Direction which gives the courts the power to impose sanctions on the parties if they fail to comply with the direction including failing to respond to this letter before claim. 

I look forward to hearing from you within the next 14 days.

 

Should I not receive a response to my letter within this time frame then I anticipate that court action will be commenced with no further reference to you.

 

Yours faithfully, 

 

me

 

 

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Hi Gardener,

 

I think your letter is too wordy and goes into too much detail but please await comment from @BankFodder

 

Maybe their Head Office would be good to send your written copy of the letter :-

 

Content removed - wrong company referred to

 
Finally, I suggest you only keep the frames if you agree to keep the existing glass at reduced cost; or if Crystal agree to provide replacement glass as per your original specs. 
 
If you keep the frames and arrange new glass from a different supplier, you could be responsible for any error in the glass unit sizes. As I've said from the start, it makes a lot of sense to have the frames  supplied with the glass sealed units.
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I certainly agree with my site team colleague @slick132, it's far too wordy. Although if you feel that you need to tell someone your life story, it's probably cheaper than going to counselling.

I have a closer look at it later on – but apart from anything else you are disclosing evidence, giving them advance information about documents that you intend to rely on. You should really just stick to the facts that you made a contract, the contract has been breached because of certain defects – you could talk about the defects very briefly – and then you assert that they are in breach and that if they won't remedy the breach then you will see them within 14 days.

 

I have put a strike through across a part of your proposed letter which clearly shouldn't be included at all because it simply discloses evidence. However, the rest of the narrative needs to be severely edited and cropped.

I have a closer look at the letter later however, I'm afraid that I am not up to speed on the content of this thread – and what I'm reading is that they are saying that what they supplied was in compliance with your final specification.

Could you just jot a quick response to this for me to understand so that I don't have to go through the entire thread. Thanks

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