Parking Eye 2*ANPR PCN's Now PAPLOC , KFC Ellesmere Centre, Walkden

[Sdjx]

Hi. 

 

I wanted to ask for advice before I act, so I do this right. 

 

Today received a parking charge from Parking Eye for parking for 33 minutes on KFC car park from 8.36am, when the allowed time is zero. 

 

Ellesmere Centre has free parking for 2 hours, but I hadn't noticed that the KFC parking is considered separate.   I've uploaded screenshots of the Walkden Town centre website, which says it's free and even has a map of the retail park that includes KFC and its car park. 

 

I've since learned that KFC doesn't open until 11am.  I am going to try and get a picture of the signage, but i don't have it now. 

 

My worry is I am going to get another one of these because I know I did the same routine the day after. 

 

Is it right that they can charge you for parking when it isn't even open?  I assume you can park there if you are a KFC customer.  Can I argue I was waiting for it to open, assuming it it would open at 9am, and then left when I saw it hadn't opened? 

 

I've downloaded the formal challenge letter template that asks for their contract, signage etc so I can decide how to deal with the matter. 

 

Should I send that right away, and is there anything else I need to do? 

 

layout.pdf

[dx100uk]

you dont send anything.

 

we know this site very well already

 

please complete this:

 

 

[Sdjx]

Thanks for the response. Details below. 

 

1)Date of the infringement

02/11/20 (Also expecting one for 03/11/20 but not yet received) 
 

2 Date on the NTK [this must have been received within 14 days from the 'offence' date]

05/11/20
 

[scan up BOTHSIDES as ONE PDF- follow the upload guide]

Uploaded PDF. 

 

3 Date received

09/12/20
 

4 Does the NTK mention schedule 4 of The Protections of Freedoms Act 2012? [Y/N?]

Yes
 

5 Is there any photographic evidence of the event?

Yes
 

6 Have you appealed? [Y/N?] post up your appeal]

No, but I want to. 
 

Have you had a response? [Y/N?] post it up

N/A
 

7 Who is the parking company?

Parking Eye Car Park Solutions

 

8. Where exactly [carpark name and town]

KFC, Ellesmere Centre, Walkden

 

For either option, does it say which appeals body they operate under.

Independent Appeals Service (POPLA) 
 

Thank you for your help. 

PCN upload.pdf

[FTMDave]

Why do you want to appeal?  The PPCs never, ever, ever accept appeals - ever. 

 

What would you write in an appeal?  You did break their silly rule.  Parking Eye are only interested in £££££.

 

Concentrate instead on building up a case against the crooks.  Is this place local to you?  If so, it would be very useful to get photos of the fleecers' signage and see what rubbish they have come up with to try to penalise diners for only staying 33 minutes but before 11:00.

[Sdjx]

I assumed my choices were to appeal or pay, and I definitely don't intend to pay. 

 

If I don't follow the appeals process, will it not go against me if it goes to court? 

 

It's not local, but near a site I've been working at.   Might be able to get a photo tomorrow of the signage. 

[FTMDave]

11 minutes ago, Sdjx said:

I definitely don't intend to pay.

Damn right!

 

There is a third choice.  Simply ignore them.  They aren't the police, the council or the courts, they're a private company.  They haven't sent you a fine, they've sent you an invoice.

 

They are highly unlikely to take you to court, and even if they do I've never seen any judge who was interested in their crooked appeals process.  Judges are interested in the law, i.e. if you really did enter a contract with them and then broke it or not.

 

Pix of the signage would be great when you can.

 

EDIT  Is it a typo, or did you really receive the NTK after a month (and is this postmarked?)  If so, they're they screwed, they haven't established keeper liability.

Edited November 9, 2020 by FTMDave

[Sdjx]

OK thanks, I will try and get signage tomorrow. 

 

Sneaky as Oh flip to have a small part of a wider retail park under private parking restrictions. 

 

Is it worth contacting the KFC directly to try and have them cancel it, or does that count as acknowledging the charge and make parking Eye more likely to chase me? 

[FTMDave]

Indeed sneaky as flip, and also probably contrary to the planning permission that the retail park was granted.  It's typical of these vile companies to invent restrictions, that have no basis in law, then threaten motorists who unfortunately usually cough up because they are ignorant of the law.

 

Normally getting on to the CEO of KFC would be the first thing we would suggest ... but you weren't a genuine customer.  As you're working nearby, could you per chance grab a cheap meal there in the next few days?  Then you could go for it with KFC, say you're a regular customer as you're working nearby, you also tried to go for breakfast but found the place shut then surreally got these demands for payment, etc.

 

I suggest this on a "belt & braces" level, do not communicate with the fleecers and try to build up a case against them.  Is their signage pants? (probably).  Have they got planning permission for their signs? (probably not).  Does whatever on their signs go against the planning permission for the retail park? (probably yes).  Etc. 

 

 

[dx100uk]

there are no instances of a council having granted the initial planning permission for a said industrial or retail estate EVER changing or permitting the change of parking time to such a short limit.

 

as FTM says it's typically 2 or 3 hours free on most estates and no-one can vary that without explicit permission from relevant planning dept as it's a variant of the original planning permission 

[Sdjx]

Yes that was a typo.  Received 09/11/20.

 

OK.  Will contact the local KFC manager if I can, and also try to find planning permission details.  Will let you know what I find. 

 

Thanks for all the help 

[Sdjx]

Pictures attached.  Make it clear its 1 hour free, but then says not outside of those times. 

 

 

 

pix.pdf

[dx100uk]

converted your pix to PDF so we can zoom better.

 

there is no such thing as you can't park there outside of XX hours nor a limit of 1 hrs.

totally unenforceable.

 

[Sdjx]

Thank you.  So the advice is ignore them unless I get a court case?  Happy to do that 

[dx100uk]

no a letter of claim.

 

i suggest it will pay you to get reading up

here on cag 

there are 1000's of threads

 

use our search top right 

parking eye pcn

 

dx

[brassnecked]

Other thing to remember with parking Eye is they will bandy Beavis about in any begging letters, it applies narrowly and in your case would not apply, as they are using a possibly unfair term, with a total prohibition between certain times as mentioned by DX.

[lookinforinfo]

There is one more thing.

 

At the entrance it just says that you can only stay for an hour.

There is no mention of a £100 charge for breaking any of their rules until you are inside the park which means that you are not liable to pay it since it is the entrance regs. that is the guide.

[Sdjx]

Hi all. 

An update.  After chasing with a couple more letters, I have today received a 'Letter Before County Court Claim' (well, two of them, one for each of the days I parked there). 

 

They say 'the requirements of schedule 4 of POFA' have been met.  It says I have 30 days from 24th December (date of letter) to reply if I wish to.  They also quote that beavis case you guys mention. 

 

There is a form for me to complete, asking if I dispute or accept the debt and asking for a financial statement, which I am guessing they have no right to.

 

Is this the letter I need to reply to, or am I still in the waiting phase? 

 

Thanks again for your help, I'd have probably caved and paid both charges by now without it. 

[brassnecked]

Its time to write them a snotty letter, check out ericsbrother's posts for some ideas, you MUST respond  within the 30 days to that, but ignore their forms and financial statement guff.

[dx100uk]

well you've been researching here as advised almost 2mts ago now so these should not be a surprise, nor how to respond to them.

 

dx

 

[FTMDave]

Yes, snotty letter time.  There are loads here

 

https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/search/?q=snotty letter&quick=1&search_and_or=and

 

so choose one that best fits your case, tweak it and post it up.

 

A couple of other things.  For the 3 November "offence", when did their NTK arrive?

 

Did you get on to KFC as suggested in post 8?

[Sdjx]

Thanks for the replies.

 

The NTK did arrive within the time limit.  I can't remember the date now, but I did check it at the time following earlier advice in this thread.

 

I haven't been able to get back to KFC, but I did email the retail park management company, with no reply as yet.

 

I have drafted a snotty reply.   I worry that it might  need changing because 1) it's not snotty enough and 2) I give too many details about my defence.

 

What do you think?

 

Quote

 

I write with regards to the two “Letter before county court claim” you have sent me:

•  

  ·         Reference ..., relating to an alleged parking breach on 2^nd November 2020.
• ·         Reference .., relating to an alleged parking breach on 4^th November 2020.

 

 

I find these claims laughable and do not accept that I owe anything.  Furthermore, your attempt to have me fill in a financial statement of my incomings and outgoings is a disgrace and you have no right to that information.

 

 

There are many reasons why this so called “breach” is nothing of the sort, some of which are:

•  

  ·         Unclear signage.   When approaching this car park from the McDonalds drive thru lane, there is no clear signage indicating that this section of the car park is separate to the rest of the retail park car park.
• ·         Conflicting information.  The website for Walkden Town Centre indicated that Walkden Retail Park has free parking for up to 2 hours, and the schematic/map they show for the retail park includes the KFC car park where these alleged breaches occurred.
• ·         Unclear signage, again.   On one sign nearby there is a large text saying “1 hour max stay”.   I must note this sign is not visible from the entry point I used.  Added to the information provided by the website, it is reasonable for anyone to assume there is one hours free parking.  The text explaining the further restrictions are in smaller text, and not easily read when driving past.
• ·         Ridiculous restrictions.   The sign states that no parking outside of the stated times (10am-midnight).    This is a highly unusual restriction, and not one I believe can be justified. 

 

 

Furthermore, I do not believe I have been issued this claim by the landowner, nor been given any evidence that the planning permission allows for these parking restrictions. 

 

 

I could go on, but I have better things to do with my time.  In conclusion, I am not paying these daft claims, and I will not be responding to any more of these harassment letters unless you wish to waste the courts time, where I shall be sure to request an unreasonable costs order under CPR27.14(2)(g)

 

 

 

[FTMDave]

7 hours ago, Sdjx said:

I have drafted a snotty reply.   I worry that it might  need changing because 1) it's not snotty enough and 2) I give too many details about my defence.

 

You're right on both counts, but no problem, we can tweak it.

 

How much are they asking for in the two LBCs?  I'm damn sure it won't be 2 x £100, they'll have invented some Unicorn Food Tax which will be extra ammo for your reply.

 

EDIT  Are the LBCs from PE themselves, or have they gone running to solicitors?

Edited January 1, 2021 by FTMDave

[Sdjx]

Thank you. 

 

Letters are from PE, not a solicitor. They both ask for £100.  They also say a court case will incur further costs of £50 for solicitors fees and £25 for court fees. 

[FTMDave]

Thanks.  I've tried to "snotty up" your letter.  See what the other site regulars say today, then get the letter off tomorrow with a free Certificate of Posting from the post office.

 

I write with regards to the two “Letters before county court claim” you have sent me:

 

•  Reference ..., relating to an alleged parking breach on 2^nd November 2020.

• ·Reference .., relating to an alleged parking breach on 4^th November 2020.

 

I find these claims laughable and do not accept that I owe anything.  Furthermore, your attempt to have me fill in a financial statement of my incomings and outgoings is a disgrace and you have no right to that information. 

 

There are many reasons why this so called “breach” is nothing of the sort, your signage is pants and the whole made-up restriction a total nonsense.

 

I could go on, but I have better things to do with my time.  In conclusion, I am not paying these daft claims, and I will not be responding to any more of these harassment letters unless you wish to waste the court's time, where I shall be sure to request an unreasonable costs order under CPR 27.14(2)(g).

Edited January 3, 2021 by FTMDave
Spacing

[brassnecked]

Looks OK for now, it might draw them into providing more specific stuff to clobber them with.