Returning multiple PE2 and PE3's for unknown PCN's following Bailiff Letter

[LDN_J]

Hi.

 

I bought a moped two years ago - my first vehicle though I'm 34 and have had my provisional for nine years.

I recently received a letter from Marston stating I have until 07/11/2020 to pay £278 for what was originally a £65 PCN for a bus lane contravention.

I then went back to my old address and discovered three more PCNs. Details below:

 

1. Contravention: 22/10/2019
   Barnet council
   Charge certificate issued on 09/01/2020
   I didn't find the 'Order of recovery' letter but it has since been passed to a debt collection agency
   £195 + £8 court registration fee + £75 debt collector's fee
    
2. Contravention: 08/06/2020
   Camden council
   Charge certificate issued on 04/09/2020
   Order for recovery of unpaid penalty charge dated 29/09/2020
   £195 + £8 court registration fee
   No letters from an EA yet
    
3. Contravention: 13/07/2020
   Ealing council
   Charge certificate issued on 02/09/2020
   £195
    
4. Contravention: 29/07/2020
   Ealing council
   Charge certificate issued on 14/09/2020
   £195

 

I moved house on 24/08/2019 - before any of the contraventions.

I was unaware that I needed to update the address on the V5C to receive PCNs.

 

Having done some reading here and on National Consumer Service, I see that many other people have been affected in the same way. The reason for this seems to be the nature of the V5C itself.

 

There are two approaches I could take with my PE2 and PE3 forms, and I hope someone here may be able to advise me. Obviously I won't be trying to misrepresent the truth in a sworn statement, but I'd like to know which of these factors is most likely to see my forms accepted.

 

Firstly, I could state that because of Covid I have been hesitant to visit the old address for long enough to sort through the mail. This is true - there's a huge pile behind the door that I had to enter the house and sort through. It's a shared house with seven occupants and people don't stay there long. I'm heading back to take some pictures shortly to illustrate this in case that is my best option.

Secondly, I could explain why I didn't know that updating my address is mandatory.

The most salient points are:

 

• I understood the words:

  "You must make sure the name and address printed here is correct. If it is not, see section 12."

  to be something that must be done on receipt of the document. The address was correct when I received the document.
   

• The inner two pages appeared to relate only to selling or exporting the vehicle. In section 12, instructions on how to update one’s address are given but it is not made clear that this is mandatory or that this relates in any way to PCNs.

  “If the details in section 5 are wrong or you want to change your address, fill in section 6… Do not tick the new keeper box.”

  I understood this to mean that updating my name and address on the certificate was optional, and likely to be something that I would need to do before selling or exporting the vehicle.
   

• On the reverse of the document is further information on selling and exporting the vehicle, and a second section also titled section 12.

  Here, the keeper’s responsibilities regarding registration, tax and insurance are outlined but there are no statements about updating one’s address with the DVLA. I interpreted the words "Failure to tell DVLA of any changes may result in a fine or prosecution" as relating to the immediately preceding statements about informing the DVLA if the vehicle has been sold, taken off the road or exported rather than relating to my personal details, which aren’t mentioned in that section.

  There is no indication that the section 12 on the reverse of the document is a continuation of a previous part of the document or that it is preceded by other important information that relates to anything other than buying, selling or exporting the vehicle.

 

In summary, important information on updating one’s personal details are at the end of a two-page form that is used only when buying, selling or exporting the vehicle. Furthermore it isn’t made clear anywhere that updating one’s address is mandatory or necessary to receive PCNs.

 

Feedback would be greatly appreciated.

[honeybee13]

Hello and welcome to CAG.

 

People should be along to advise later, please bear with us until they're able to get here.

 

Best, HB

[brassnecked]

Yes you have to inform DVLA of any change of address asap after a move.  There are other penalties you can be given for not doing so.

[dx100uk]

as you didn't receive the PCN's for whatever reason 

use the forms and appeal all of them.

 

dx

 

[dx100uk]

read this thread

the forms are there too

 

 

[LDN_J]

Thank you dx100uk, I know what I have to do. I'd like to know what is best to write in the 'reasons' field on the PE2 and PE3 forms.

I'd also like to know if the reasons should be the same on both forms. PE3 appears to be the "Why didn't you receive the PCN?" form and PE2 looks like the "What took you so long?" form.

Is that correct?

 

Or should I state all my reasons on both forms?

[dx100uk]

Are you are using the wrong forms?

 

As i said go read that link in that thread

 

Dx

[LDN_J]

I did read it, thanks for providing the link. Aren't TE7 and TE9 for parking offences?

Mine are all moving traffic offences. Sorry I didn't make that clear.

Edited November 1, 2020 by LDN_J

[dx100uk]

sorry i was on a small screen

you do say bus lane in post 1.

 

so when did you move?

dx

 

 

[LDN_J]

I moved house on 24/08/2019 - before any of the contraventions. Two months before the first contravention.

[dx100uk]

you don't need to really to put anything as to why didn't receive the NTO/NOE/PCN.

 

simply state , i have received no prior communications of any kind until prior to the Notice Of Enforcement From A Bailiff Company dated xxxx

 

its not their problem that the DVLA was not updated by you

don't mention it at all.

FWIW: the DVLA only have 6mts to try and get you themselves, already 50% of that time has gone

 

there are no examples of sending back a TE3 that has resulted in the DVLA 'waking-up'

i would not be mentioning you eventually went to the old AD at all. again not their problem

[LDN_J]

 

This comment by Baliff Advice suggests that detail is helpful. Should I have posted in the Bailiff forum rather than here since it's got to that stage?

I see what you're saying about responding to the TEC not having any effect on the DVLA and their archaic forms since they are separate entities. I was hoping it might explain specifically why I didn't receive the PCNs. The form asks for reasons, and my OP describes the reasons though I feel like I'm on the wrong track and running short on time.

 

I'm not able to send Bailiff Advice a message on here since I'm new.

[dx100uk]

well i can't see it hurting you to mention steps have been taken to ensure it doesn't happen again sure.

[LDN_J]

Hi,

 

I've fallen into the trap of moving house without updating the address on my V5C and urgently need help with the wording of my responses for forms PE3 and PE2 for four separate moving traffic offences.

 

 

I spoke to TEC this morning and was told that I have until Wednesday to send a PE3 for PCN #2 without also having to send form PE2.

 

Additionally, I have until Thursday to send my PE3 and PE2 for the first PCN, assuming they process it by the next day. The letter from the bailiff gives me until midnight on Saturday to pay £278.

The remaining two PCNs only require form PE3.

 

I'm posting here in the hope of getting some more advice on the actual responses I write in those forms, hopefully from Bailiff Advice?.

 

Or should I contact a solicitor?

 

I have no idea where to start with that and I have a full time job so I have very little time.

[dx100uk]

i have merged your threads for you to make it easy to read.

 

as long as you don't lie on the forms and purge yourself you can't harm anything.

 

i don't think you need a solicitor no.

 

 

[Bailiff Advice]

Can I just be clear here...

 

The Barnet contravention dated 22nd Oct 2019 requires both the PE2 and PE3 but the other 3 PCN's only require the PE3. 

 

In other words, you only have to submit ONE Out of Time Statutory Declaration and for the other three contravention,  they only require a Statutory Declaration.

 

If I am correct, the good news is that for the 3 contraventions where you are still within time to submit Statutory Declarations, these will AUTOMATICALLY be accepted and new Penalty Charge Notices will be issued by Camden and Ealing Councils allowing you to either pay the charge at the earlier rate or alternatively; to make representation (assuming that you have grounds etc). 

 

When you moved, did you update your driving licence?

Have you now updated your V5C (Log Book)  and if so, when?

[LDN_J]

Thank you for the response.

That is some wonderful news regarding the PE2s, I'll get them sent as soon as I can. Such a relief.

 

I got my provisional while living with my parents in 2011 at age 25 (loser, I know) - that's the address on the license.

 

I've been at ten different addresses since then and haven't been operating a vehicle at all until 2018, so didn't see the need to update it.

 

I went back to uni, finished my degree, moved to London and have had two jobs since... lots of moving around.

 

When I got my CBT and started riding I thought it would still be best to leave the address alone as my parents reliably forward my mail, and because I'll probably still not settle down for some time.

 

When I learned it was mandatory to keep these up to date I immediately updated my V5C and applied to update my driving license with my current address.

 

So for the PE3s, is the following suitable?

 

"I did not receive any correspondence regarding this PCN as it was sent to my previous address at [old address]. I moved to [new address] on xx/08/2019."

I want to try to get to the court before 4:30 today if I can.

 

[Bailiff Advice]

19 hours ago, dx100uk said:

you don't need to really to put anything as to why didn't receive the NTO/NOE/PCN.

 

simply state , i have received no prior communications of any kind until prior to the Notice Of Enforcement From A Bailiff Company dated xxxx

 

 

 

Can I just correct you here DX. 

 

If a motorist is submitting  an 'In Time' Statutory Declaration' (in other words, the Stat Dec is submitted to TEC within 21 days of the Order for Recovery being issued, then he will only need to provide a brief outline such as:

 

'I would like to request that the debt registration be cancelled and a new Penalty Charge Notice issued as I was unable to pay the charge at the earlier discounted rate as I only became aware of this moving traffic offence a few days ago when I was able to collect items of post from a previous address'. 

 

His Statutory Declaration will AUTOMATICALLY be accepted and a new Penalty Charge Notice issued allowing him to pay at the earlier discounted rate. 

 

If however, the motorist is unable to submit a Statutory Declaration within 21 days of the Order for Recovery being issued,  (usually because he only became  aware of the Penalty after being contacted by a bailiff,) then he will still be able to submit a Statutory Declaration.

 

The difference between submitting the Stat Dec 'In Time' (i.e: within 21days of the OfR being issued) and 'Out of Time' (after the 21 days has expired) is that in ADDITION to submitting a Statutory Declaration, he will also have to submit a second  formal document to 'seek permission' to allow him to submit his Statutory Declaration LATE (in other words 'Out of Time'). Also, and this is very important, his application will not automatically be accepted. Instead, the Traffic Enforcement Centre contact the local authority to ask them whether or not they will allow the motorist to 

 

In doing so, he will be required to also complete form PE2 (entitled:  Application to file a Statutory Declaration 'Out of Time'. Crucially, on this form the motorist is required to provide HIS REASONS for filing his Statutory Declaration LATE (in other words, outside of the legally required 21 days from receipt of the Order for Recovery. And this is where there is always a problem. Motorists fail to understand this point.

 

It is ALWAYS the case that when completing form PE2 that the motorist provide the REASON why he could not file his Statutory Declaration within the legal timeframe. Such as, that he has only just become aware of the penalty because all prior correspondence had been sent to his previous address etc, etc. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[dx100uk]

hey thats great BA.

thats clarified the withinoutside certain time limits issues with regard to forms

 

what i'll do is also copy the above to this Thread.

https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/420064-statutory-declaration-forms-which-to-use-for-which-offence/

 

focussed in one easy to understand place

 

dx

 

[LDN_J]

Thank you Bailiff Advice, this is very helpful.

 

If I was religious I'd say you're doing the Lord's work.

You too, DX.

 

I made it to the magistrates court before they closed but was told I needed an appointment and that I should go to the county court tomorrow morning where an appointment isn't necessary.

 

I'll be a bit late for work but my boss understands.

 

For the PE2, Is it worth making the argument that the V5C isn't clear or should I just explain the circumstances?

 

should I replace 'debt registration' with 'Charge Certificate' for the two PCNs that have only gotten to that stage?

[LDN_J]

I've completed all the forms but I'm worried that by mentioning in the PE2 that I didn't update my license I may be asking for more trouble.

Is it likely that I would be fined for that as a result of this?

I'm taking the three PE3s to the county court now but I have at least another day to take the PE3 / PE2, so will wait for a response on this one.

Edited November 3, 2020 by LDN_J

[Bailiff Advice]

For the 'in time' Stat Dec's ( the 2 Ealing and 1 Camden tickets) you merely need to ensure that you tick box number 1 (I did not receive the Penalty Charge Notice) and in the 'reason' box state:

 

'I would like to request that the debt registration be cancelled and a new Penalty Charge Notice issued as I was unable to pay the charge at the earlier discounted rate as I only became aware of this moving traffic offence a few days ago when I was able to collect items of post from a previous address'.

 

Also, don't make the same mistake that almost all motorists make when submitting these applications in that in the Applicant box ,(top right hand corner), they provide their name. This is wrong. In this box, you must provide the name of the issuing authority (in this case; either Camden or Ealing Council. 

 

For the 'Out of Time' application, it would be perfectly OK to state that it was only after receiving correspondence from a bailiff at your current address regarding this particular penalty that you decided to visit your previous  property to ascertain whether there was any items of post.  It would be wise to also mention that the property had been a house share with 7 other people. 

 

Out of Time applications have NOTHING whatsoever to do with the address on your driving licence. With all moving traffic and other contraventions, it is the information on the V5C (Log Book) that is relevant.  Therefore, you must state that you have updated your V5C to your current address. There is no requirement to state WHEN you did this. Kepp it simple. 

 

Finally, you will NOT be prosecuted for failing to update either your V5C or Driving licence any sooner. What is important is that you have now updated them.  

 

 

Edited November 3, 2020 by Bailiff Advice

[LDN_J]

Thanks again for the help.

 

I sent my PE3s and PE2 and received auto responses for all of them.

 

The TEC have sent my PE3 and PE2 to Barnet council and enforcement is on hold (confirmed with Marston - I recorded the call).

 

The Camden PCN was on the last day before I had to also send a PE2, and I sent it before midday.

I haven't heard back from the TEC other than the auto response - I'm assuming that one has been automatically processed and intend to confirm on Monday.

 

I did however get an email from the TEC regarding the two Ealing PCNs, saying the debt had not been registered with them.

 

I have received 'Charge Certificate' letters for both, dated 02/09/2020 and 14/09/2020.

 

At this stage should I contact Ealing council and send them my PE3 forms, or should I wait until the debt is registered with the TEC and send them there again?

[dx100uk]

open