Help with Bailiff fees ***Resolved***

[Popcorny2020]

Hello, 

 

Just looking for some advice on where I stand with a debt from a court fine which was passed to a bailiffs. 

I had a court fine which I was paying in instalments. Admittedly I missed the last couple it went back to court who got a warrant and passed it to the bailiffs.

 

I got a text from the bailiffs on the 12^thOctober confirming this was the case.

This prompted me to pay the debt straight to the court in full.

I thought this was resolved (not had any experience of bailiffs previously fortunately). 

 

I then got another text from them on Thursday stating I owed £75 to them directly.

I understand this is because they took the case on and it a Notice of Enforcement fee.

 

I contacted them Friday because I did some research and understand they can only charge the £75 if they have sent out the Notice of Enforcement by letter and I hadn’t received anything. The bailiffs said they had sent the letter out but were having some trouble attaching it to an email so would repost it (as of today still not received it). 

 

My concern was that they had failed to send out the Notice and were editing a letter there and then.

From research it was confirmed I was entitled to ask for the original proof (i.e from the post office showing date/time and address)

I asked them to send me this (I did so over the phone and sent an email). As of yet they haven’t provided this. 

 

A bailiff has turned up today and has added £235 in fees.

Can I do anything about this?

I confirmed in the email that I would pay the £75 on receipt of the proof of sending. 

 

In hindsight I should have just paid £75 I know but just wondered whether they can just add this £235 bearing in mind I have confirmed I will pay the £75 if they provide proof they did indeed send me the Notice of Enforcement?

 

Thanks on advance of any help

[honeybee13]

Hello and welcome to CAG.

 

We've come across this problem before so people will know what to do. Please bear with us until the people in the know can get here.

 

Best, HB

[Popcorny2020]

thank you 

 

Can I just add the bailiff has not contacted me to do any kind of COVID risk assessment (and the other person at the property is considered vulnerable and is shielding). 

[honeybee13]

Thank you, we'll take that into account.

 

Btw, there's no need to hit Quote when you reply because it makes the thread confusing if you're quoting the post above yours. Best to just type in the blank box below the post.

 

HB

[dx100uk]

can't see how you can owe the £235 fee, just because of an error their way that ran the 7 days out because you didn't pay the £75 NOA fee in time. you need to confirm the address the NOA was sent too , thats all.

have you moved since the fine was issued?

 

please be very careful about following advice on some bailiff sites, they can be very misleading at the best of times.

if you've not moved, then there can't be any real dispute about not receiving the NOA, letters are deemed received 2 days after posting regardless.

 

i think you need to get WRITING to the company, offer the £75 . 

[Popcorny2020]

Thanks for your reply dx 

 

no I haven’t moved, in all honestly I don’t think they have sent the NOA, hence why I have asked for proof. It was suspicious on the phone as they couldn’t find the letter and then couldn’t attach it to an email 

 

I have no problem paying the £75 if they prove they sent it. 
 

im disputing the £235 as I don’t think they’ve follow the COVID guidelines either. I’m at work and my sister answered the door who is deemed vulnerable and is shielding. I would have told them that if they done a risk assessment (I believe the ministry of justice require it) 

 

im a little confused with what you mean by the NOA running out? They have told me they sent it on the 14th? 

[dx100uk]

what happened to the further steps notice from the court and their text messages prior to that.

 

 

[Popcorny2020]

I never got anything from the court either. 
 

I missed a couple of payments and then the first reminder was a text from the bailiffs on the 12th October stating they have been passed the case and have a warrant of control. I paid the debt straight away, but stupidly to the court and not the bailiffs. 
 

Is it worth contacting the court? I presume the bailiffs can still chase this despite me paying the original debt on full straight away 

[dx100uk]

something is not right here.

there are numerous steps the system has to go thru before it results in a visit and numerous places are involved, so you not receiving various texts and letters from different establishments is not right. they can't all simply be forgetting to do things.

 

one last question before you go ring the court..

 

have you ever missed or been late with any payments before since you got the fine?

 

 

 

 

[Popcorny2020]

No I got the fine in February and started making monthly repayments straight away. I did stop in June and to be honest although I’m not making excuses, there was other things on my mind and I did forget 

 

The next communication was the text on the 12th October which I acted on, and then the one last Thursday stating I owed £75 

 

thanks for your help and advice 

 

 

[dx100uk]

ok good

well something is amiss 

 

just so you know what should happen......

 

go read this thread

https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/390503-excel-warrant-of-control-unpaid-fine-help/?tab=comments#comment-4676252

particularly about post 10 ish

gives the full process

 

then you'll be wiser upon what specific questions to ask the court.

 

so go ring the court and find out.

 

glad to help 

[Peterbard]

Hi

I am afraid you have been misled initially.

 

The Compliance fee, is due from when the warrant is received by the bailiff, not from when the notice is sent. As you quite rightly say it is to cover expenses which may include searches etc, these would have to e done before the NOE was posted to you.

Stages of enforcement for which fees may be recovered – enforcement other than under High Court writs

5.—(1) The relevant stages of enforcement under an enforcement power which is not conferred by a High Court writ are as follows—

(a)the compliance stage, which comprises all activities relating to enforcement from the receipt by the enforcement agent of instructions to use that procedure in relation to a sum to be recovered up to but not including the commencement of the enforcement stage;

 

Payment to the court is always a bad idea once the debt has been transferred to enforcement, as it slows down the procedure, as the sum will not be paid until confirmation is sent from the court to the EA.

You are not the first to fall for this "advice".

 

Just to add to the above.

 

The bailiff collects both fees and the sum due to the court in one sum, "the amount outstanding" as far as they are concerned there is just a £75 shortfall.

 

If you ring and say you have been misled, they may intercede and help. But it is your fault, so apologetic is the operative word here. 

Sorry about the multiple posts. See, like that 

[dx100uk]

merged them for you..

 

still puzzling why as BA says in that quoted thread i found... why nothing from the court previously..should have been lots of comms before a bailiff letter then a visit

 

and ofcourse the cheeky visit to ramp it up to now £310 fees.

 

hope the op rang today and can update us....

[Peterbard]

Hi yes their are communication's from the court before the warrant is issued. from the fines officer for example, giving ten days to pay, but after the warrant is signed for , the debt comes under the TCE and its provisions.

 

I think the OP is considerably past that stage.

[dx100uk]

yes thank you, he is. but knew nowt about this until the final bailiff letter and would have paid had he got them. thus avoiding the excess fees.

i believe from reading BA's previous advice there have been instances where if things weren't sent or to a wrong address fees were removed?

 

dx

[Bailiff Advice]

I cannot tell you how many enquiries, identical to yours we have dealt with on this forum. 

 

Once again, if payment is made after a warrant is issued and passed to bailiffs, then any payment made to the court of just the fine amount (minus bailiff fees) is simply forwarded by the court to the relevant enforcement company. 

 

And here is the most important piece of information to remember:

 

Lets say for example that the bailiff requested a sum of £425 and that this was broken down as to £350 for the fine and £75 for the Compliance Fee. The debtor then  makes payment TO THE COURT of just the sum of £350 (fine amount).  Here  is what happens next:

 

As a warrant has already been issued and passed to bailiffs, the court will send the £350 to the enforcement company.

 

Legislation provides that from any payment made (irrespective of whether  that payment was made direct to the creditor/court or enforcement company) that the £75 Compliance fee is first deducted. Therefore the payment made of £350 has been allocated as to £75 towards the Compliance fee and the balance (in this case of £275) allocated towards the fine. 

 

The compliance fee of £75 has been paid in full and the balance remaining against the fine has now been reduced to £75.  Unless payment of this £75 is made, the bailiff is entitled to make a visit and at that stage, an enforcement fee of £235 becomes due and payable. 

 

To avoid this scenario happening, don't pay a creditor (or court) direct once the debt is with bailiffs. 

 

If you are in arrears with paying a court fine, then what happens is that HM Courts will send you what is called a Further Steps Notice. You have just 10 working days to clear the arrears otherwise, a warrant would be issued. 

 

The court are not under any obligation to send more than one Further Steps Notice during the lifetime of the fine. In other words, if you had previously been late in making payments and had received a Further Steps Notice, the court are not required to send another one to you if you again default in payment. 

 

If it is the case that you had not received a FTS, then you need to make enquiries with the Magistrate's Court. 

Edited October 29, 2020 by Bailiff Advice

[Peterbard]

The initial £75 Fee is separate to the the enforcement charges under fees regulations, in that the bailiff  is due to be paid on endorsement of the warrant by the EA, prior to enforcement.

 

It is not part of the pro rata payment under section 13 of the fees regulations. 

 

In any case the OP says he had already defaulted on repayment to a plan set up by the bailiff, the bailiff would not have to send another  NOE in that case, neither do they have to acknowledge failure to keep to the terms of the agreement. They will, in my view, quite rightly, enforce forthwith.

 

 

[Popcorny2020]

No Peter, I never said that I had defaulted on a repayment plan with the bailiff, I defaulted on the agreement I had with the court. Only heard from the bailiffs for the first time last Thursday. 

 

Particular thanks to DX for their advice as I contacted the court and they have admitted they failed to follow process. It seems the Final Steps Notice was not sent. I have had an email from the bailiffs today stating the whole £310 has been written off because the debt was settled with the court. Very relieved although it seems fair given their failings.

 

[Bailiff Advice]

Excellent outcome. 

[AndyOrch]

Topic title updated...well done.

 

Andy

[Peterbard]

Yes good. I did mention the 10 ay ting earlier, although i did think you were referring to an agreement with the Bailiff, if I must be honest.

Unusual for the fine officer not to send the ten day notice, as he is the one who creates the warrant. But all's well that ends well.

 

It again goes to show that you should talk to the creditor or/and the bailiff, and not, as others are advised to do, ignore them.

Well done

 

Oh and have to say, well done DX.

[dx100uk]

didn't remember what wasn't done correctly until i had read BA's earlier notes i found

but i knew it couldn't have been correct.

 

well done

[Peterbard]

As I feared the raving looney parties have picked this up to bolster there idea, that you can pay the court direct to avoid fees.

 

No not at all. In this case a warrant should not have been sent, because the debtor had not been given the time to remedy under the Courts act.(ten days). Nothing to do with bailiffs.

Quite a rare occurrence. 

 

After the warrant is properly received by the bailiff, they have the power to enforce, all payments will end up with them, no matter who you pay, and they will remove their fees.

 

A similar claim was made in the high court a few years ago, in Murgatroyd, that too was false because the debtor had failed to notify the HCEO of payment of the debt, again before the warrant was issued.