Virgin, mystery extra line: 2 judgments for Data Protection breaches - so far!!

[BankFodder]

I don't quite understand.

You say that there is no reference to any claims or notes or anything. Later on you say that there is a complaint history and contact history to go through.

[lemon_martini2]

Had a sit down after Christmas has gone and looked through it more closely.

 

To clarify the previous post, the file arrived without any reference to the existing claim or judgment-when I opened the file one of the documents inside was titled Complaint History  and another was Contact History.

 

The file very much appears to be incomplete-the vast majority of it comprises bills and documents such as 'Mobile Glossary' or 'Details of Devices' which have no real bearing.

 

There are only 4 1/2 calls that have been saved(Call 1 only has Part 1-Part 2 has gone AWOL) and there is no mention of the signed contract-in fact one of the notes appears to state explicitly that 'we can not provide the signed agreement'.

 

Interestingly, in the Account History section, it has recorded the second handset number as being input in 2018-a year before I allegedly made the purchase.

 

 

 

[BankFodder]

Please can you make a detailed list of the items which you think you are missing.

I suggest that you use a spreadsheet and look at the advice given on on dealing with your court bundle as a basis for the style that you might want to use for analysing the disclosure.

 

[BankFodder]

Also is there anything in the disclosure which supports your version of the events or is it all completely missing?

 

if it is completely missing then might be possible that there is a different account number somewhere maybe with a slightly different name and they haven't included that in the disclosure either deliberately or more likely simply because they don't realise that they are all part of the same issue

[BankFodder]

Happy New Year.

Any update on this?

As they have actually been negotiating over the £200 – but coupled with the rest, it might be an idea to tell them that if they do not satisfy the judgement sum within five days and unconditionally that you will instruct County Court bailiffs.

Also, I suddenly realise that they have a statutory duty to inform the ICO about the judgement. Maybe we should remind them of that but also send a copy of the judgement to the ICO with a complaint.

[lemon_martini2]

Happy New Year- it seems that the items are not so much completely missing as incomplete so there can be no excuse that they are somewhere separate.

So far I have found that they are deficient in:

Bills-August-Dec 2018 not included

Emails to Customer-Only one included(I have saved all these and there are approximately 60)

Webchat Transcripts-Only Oct/Nov 2020 included.

Complaint History-Only from May 2020 included.

Calls to customer-Only 5 included,of which one is missing the second half.

Signed contract for handset-Not included.

 

There are two other pieces of evidence that support my claim-in their notes included it states they are unable to supply the signed contract and in the Account Marketing Consent the date input for the new handset number contradicts the date they state I bought it.

 

I have not heard anything from them since the judgment was granted.

 

[BankFodder]

I can't remember where we are, have you sent them another letter of claim?

[lemon_martini2]

16 December:Judgment entered against Virgin by default

19 December:Proof of judgment received from Northampton 

22 December:Letter of claim sent to Virgin.

24 December:Virgin emailed partially complete files in response to SAR request.

 

Nothing has happened since then. 

[BankFodder]

Thanks. If you can check back tomorrow and we'll figure out a couple of letters.

I think one letter to tell them that the bailiffs are on their way if they don't pay up in 7-days and a second letter to tell them that the disclosure is incomplete and to extend the date for issuing proceedings slightly.

 

 

I think we are getting close to the time where we can start dealing with the substantive problem which is isthe creation of this second account and generally speaking blighting your credit file

 

 

[lemon_martini2]

Super-many thanks for all the assistance! I also note that on my credit report, the score has gone down as the second-handset payment is still being recorded as arrears and is now showing as a 'negative factor'.

[BankFodder]

I've had a few overnight thoughts.

First of all, there is an outstanding unsatisfied judgement. You could take immediate steps to enforce this but I suddenly remember that if a judgement remains unsatisfied for 30 days it is then entered on to a register of judgements. This wouldn't make a lot of difference to you and I suppose it wouldn't make a huge amount of difference to Virgin – but it would be symbolic and of course it would be extra helpful when you make your complaint to the ICO.

On that basis, although yesterday I had thought that it would be time to threaten Virgin with enforcement of the judgement debt by bailiffs, maybe it would be cute to leave it to one side for a while and to begin the enforcement process on 19 January which, face it, is not so far away.
If you were happy with that then I would propose sending Virgin a letter on the 19th telling them that if they did not satisfy the judgement unconditionally within five days that you would hand the matter over to the County Court bailiffs.

Let us know what you think about this.

 

On the present state of the SAR and the incomplete disclosure which they have made, clearly they are in breach of statutory duty again. You sent them a letter of claim giving them 14 days. Maybe it would be an idea to give them a little nudge and a short extension.

On that basis I would suggest:

Quote

On XXX day I sent you a letter of claim in respect of your breach of statutory duty in failing to comply with my request for personal data under the Data Protection Act.
On 24 December 2020 I received a disclosure of data from you but on examination of the information which you have supplied I find that it is incomplete and does not represent all the data you hold on me.

My letter of claim of XXX date gave you 14 days to comply with your statutory obligations or else I would begin a legal action. In view of the fact that you have provided me with some of my data, I am extending my 14 day deadline by five days as a gesture of goodwill towards you.
However, I'm giving you notice that not only have you exceeded the statutory time limit for making a disclosure of personal data but also that your incomplete disclosure is a further statutory breach.

 

Your continuing failure to provide me with information which will allow me to solve the problems caused by your mishandling of my account since the beginning of this year have caused me great distress and this distress is only increased by your repeated breaches and by the continuing trouble and inconvenience caused to me as a result.
You can be certain that I shall be seeking compensation in respect of the distress you have caused me.
Therefore, if I do not receive full disclosure from you by XXX date [original deadline +5 days] I will sue you in the County Court and without any further extensions and without any further notice.
Yours

 

Also, am I right that there has been absolutely no disclosure at all in respect of this second account which they opened in your name? That is the account which is the root all the problem
 

[lemon_martini2]

Oh heck I'm sorry-I've just realized that the answer I had typed out and put up on Monday hadn't actually been saved for some reason and that's why it appears that I haven't bothered to reply or lost interest-far from it. I hadn't received any new notifications for a day or two but particularly with lockdown coming in I assumed it was just keeping quiet for a while.

 

Here's what should have been posted:

Since they still haven't satisfied the SAR request and it will shortly be 14 days from when the request was made, rather than giving them just a nudge,perhaps it may be worth while putting in another claim via MCOL for failure to fulfil their duty, maybe upping the amount claimed as this will then be the second time I have had to make a claim and as such is not just a one off lapse but a pattern of repeated failure to comply with the request.

 

I think you're right in that we should leave the bailiffs aside-if I were to threaten them immediately it would just give them notice that they had slipped up and give them time to remedy the situation before the deadline-after all why should I be pointing out their failures to them and helping them fix them? 

Either they have not noticed they haven't paid this judgment or they have noticed and do not intend to pay it-either way will reflect badly on them.

 

I shall follow up with that letter as the boundaries have now changed- the letter on the 22 December was telling them they have failed to supply the data at all, now they have supplied some data but it is incomplete 

 

The second account has had some details disclosed as it has been attached to my main account-but just basic details and most tellingly they have disclosed that in the Account Marketing Consent that the handset details were added to the account(supposedly) a year before I allegedly purchased the handset.

 

 

 

[BankFodder]

I'm just trying to understand what you posted.
By large you agree with the way forward that I suggested.

However I'm not entirely sure what you are saying about the details which have been disclosed to you in respect of the second account. You say that they have disclose some details but not everything.

How can you be sure that there is more to disclose on that account?

Also, by way of a comparator are you able to see all the documents which have been disclosed in respect of your opening of the legitimate account? Are you able to compare that to the rather more sparse information which has been disclosed in respect of this second account? That might give you a very good idea as to what is missing

[lemon_martini2]

Well I know for certain that the 'signed contract' for the second handset has not been disclosed, meaning it either doesn't exist or has been omitted.

 

Just one small point- the judgment itself was executed on the 16th December(it arrived on the 19th) so the 30 days would make it up to 16th January.

 

And for your entertainment, between these last replies I had an email from Virgin stating they are sorry that I have closed my account and would I like to give them feedback on how their team did and the service I received. I think my answer would be substantial and too not appealing to them...

 

[BankFodder]

Maybe they are being Panglossian in their expectations.

Presumably, you have a signed contract for the first handset. However, supposing they said that the contract had been completed online? For them to have a signed contract for your first handset this would suggest that you had done this over the counter in a shop, for instance.

Yes, I had gathered that the 30 days expired on the sixteenth – but I figured you may as well wait for a few days in order to put it beyond doubt.

 

Do you want to aim to send the new letter of claim on Monday? If that sounds okay to you then maybe you could finalise your proposed letter – maybe using the suggestions I made above and post it here and we can tweak it.

Also, presumably you have the telephone number of the other handset – the rogue/phantom handset.

In that case I think it might be interesting to send a further subject access request sometime next week citing that number as their reference number and seeing what that produced.

It seems to me very likely that there is an altogether different account that appears to be unrelated to your main account and that might prove a very fertile source of information

[BankFodder]

Then I would suggest that you send the following letter about 21 January.
 

Quote

 

Dear Sir/Mdm

Claim Number X X X: Proposed Warrant of Execution

 

 

As you know, on 16 December 2020 I obtained a judgement against you in respect of your statutory breach of data protection regulations in your failure to provide me with a disclosure of personal data.

 

The judgement debt of £200 plus costs has not been satisfied - and instead it seems that you made the payment of the £200 conditional on my accepting a sum in full and final settlement of the various issues that I have with you.

I am attaching to this letter a copy of the judgement and I'm writing to let you know that unless you satisfy this judgement debt in full within five days of the date of this letter that I shall instruct bailiffs to enforce the judgement and without any further notice to you.

The use of bailiffs will incur an additional fee.

Yours faithfully

 

or something like it

 

 

 

[lemon_martini2]

Excellent. I shall send the letter from post 86 (with dates added in) today and then the warrant on about January 21. Today l received a letter from them stating they were investigating my complaint and to give them 28 days to reply. As it was a) undated and b) did not specify what the complaint was it appears to be another boilerplate letter designed so Virgin could say they had attempted to contact me to deal with the complaint.

[BankFodder]

And of course what would be deliciously funny would be that if you send them the SAR for the Phantom handset and then they came back to you and said that they couldn't satisfy the request because there was no evidence that it was linked to you….

[lemon_martini2]

So they have had their five days plus their extra deadline and the only thing to come from Virgin is a deafening silence.  Next step I assume is to send the warrant letter- on MCOL I can just go ahead and issue the warrant there (which will be an extra £70) as they have neither paid the judgment nor provided a good explanation as to why it remains unpaid. Is it worth beginning another claim against them for noncompliance as they have still failed to fulfil their obligations by providing all the data?

 

Just to keep all bases covered I actually modified the last paragraph of the letter sent on 11/2  to include the second handset details so it stated 'Therefore if I do not receive full disclosure from you(including all notes and correspondence you have regarding telephone number [Second handset line]) by XXX date [original deadline +5 days] I will sue you in the County Court and without any further extensions and without any further notice.'

 

[BankFodder]

Yes, the next thing to do is apply for a warrant and then execute it as you say.

In terms of the ongoing problem with the SAR, I thought you had already send the letter of claim? Maybe not – in that case you should send them a letter of claim straightaway and get ready to begin another action.

I don't understand what you mean by a letter sent on 11/2.

Have you send a separate SAR relating simply to the second handset number? Maybe this is what you are referring to – but when did you sent it.

[lemon_martini2]

I sent the letter of claim set out in post 86 giving them the five days extension-that is what was sent on 11/1 (just realized that 11/2 was a typo in the previous post) and has not been replied to at all,so they have missed the deadline .

 

The SAR relating to the second handset was included in the demand for full disclosure in the last paragraph of that letter.

 

[BankFodder]

Thank you. Yes, I remember now the file extension because they had already supplied some information. They've now ignored your letter of claim so I think that you start the next action – as well as of course, putting the bailiffs in on the existing judgement.

In terms of the SAR, I think I had in mind that you would send a second SAR solely for the handset – and I suggest that you do that straightaway. Although generally speaking we don't limit SARs, in this case I think it would be useful to send an SAR which relates simply to this mystery handset.

So three things –
get a warrant
Sue on the most recent disclosure breach
SAR specific to the mysterious handset

[lemon_martini2]

Shall I send the letter about the proposed warrant or just proceed to MCOL and execute it?

Also how much should I sue for on the most recent disclosure breach? The first was £200 plus fees, as this is the second one this is not just an oversight but a continued breach so I feel it should be escalated to reflect the more egregious nature of their failure.

[BankFodder]

Yes I think you should simply go ahead and apply for a warrant and execute it.

In terms of further damages for distress, I agree that it is a continuing breach but on the other hand you have had damages for distress up until X X date (I can't remember when) so you are now applying for damages for distress from that date.

I think probably £200 is a reasonable figure. I certainly agree that the continuation of their breach tends to compound their responsibility but we aren't really trying to get money out of them, we are trying to prove a point.

Up to you – but I would have thought that £200 would be reasonable.

Don't forget that when we finally get the information we need and they eventually put their hands up to their error, you will be looking at something quite substantially more and there will be the further question of the inaccurate processing of your data which itself is a serious matter in addition to the damage which it has caused.

 

[lemon_martini2]

Warrant executed and second claim submitted- £102 to do both-I'll definitely get Virgin to pay for those.

And on my credit report,they have now marked both the payment for the handset and the payments for the second line as being in default...