Hermes not able to locate package (lost package)

[BankFodder]

I think that dealing with Amazon by written messages is going to be a frustrating business and almost impossible. They aren't used to this kind of thing at all and I think you will have a lot of difficulty managing to get your letters read by somebody in the right department with the right authority. I think it will be a very long winded business.

I think you are going to have to concentrate on trying to talk with a reasonable customer services person and make sure that you get chat records or record your calls on everything. You will probably be promised that they will get back to you – but you will have to ask for a time for responding and then you will have to ensure that that happens. There is no reason for them not to come back to you within a couple of days.

I think it's going to be a hard slog. You have a reasonable chance of suing Amazon successfully. You have a better chance of seeing Hermes successfully – but for less money.

I would normally suggest writing in order to get a proper paper trail – but I think that dealing with Amazon is going to be a very different kind of matter. Concentrate on quick access to the customer services but making sure you keep records of any exchanges you have.
I'm not sure that we have ever had anybody sue Amazon so far and from where I am, sitting in a spectator seat – nice and comfortably – it might be a very interesting experience. Of course you are at the coalface!

[VGTom]

What are the main points I should stress during my call with Amazon? 

[BankFodder]

Well I think it is fairly straightforward.

You simply have to emphasise that you followed their instructions at every step. It was they who arrange for the item to be picked up by Hermes. Hermes failed to collect it so that that was Amazon's failure, not yours. Amazon then acknowledged the failure and went on to give new instructions that you should make your own arrangements. You followed those instructions to the letter and in fact you chose Hermes which was Amazon's courier of choice anyway – so they couldn't possibly object to that choice – and so in fact by doing that you were acting on Amazon's behalf to return their defective product.

It's very clear that you return the product because it was defective and not simply that you made your own personal decision not to buy it.

I think that really says it all. I think that if you end up suing Amazon, then by and large those are the arguments that you would be making anyway. Having slept on this overnight, I feel more comfortable about your chances of success suing Amazon – although if it went to mediation and Amazon offered you a good deal, such as the full value of the laptop but without your costs – it might be something to consider.

Particularly because I think morally it may be right for you to share an element of the blame for what has happened.

[VGTom]

Thank you! I will write as soon as I spoke with them. I am still waiting for a reply from them (they promised that they would conduct an investigation into the matter).

[BankFodder]

Don't expect them to be particularly quick in responding or particularly enthusiastic. You are asking them to do something beyond their normal procedures and this itself poses a problem for them.

I think you need to set time limits and I think you need to decide for yourself at what point you will issue a letter of claim and give them 14 days before taking legal action.

[VGTom]

Hey! Sorry for not writing, I have been extremely busy in the past few weeks. I do have a question though and I wanted to see your opinion. I understand that the next step will be probably to take legal action against Amazon. But there is one thing that I haven't tried yet. What do you think about filing an official complaint through a third party, like https://www.econsumer.gov/#crnt or with the relevant (private sector?) ombudsman (I am not sure where I could do that)? And if I am not happy with the ombudsman's decision, I could still take court action. 

[BankFodder]

Welcome back. I can appreciate that you've probably been extremely busy – but so are we and it's very difficult to start catching up with a thread again after it tends to have gone dormant because the originator has left it.

You are dealing with an item of great value here and I think that if you want to do anything about it then you should engage with this thread more earnestly then you have been. Sorry about your work commitments and all that – but I think that you will have to prioritise a bit.

I haven't gone through the thread again to try and refresh my memory – we have a huge number of other people come to us for free help who tend to be a bit more engaged. I will go back over the thread when I can in the next day or so.
However, you can certainly try filing official complaints to 3rd parties – but don't hold your breath. Nothing will happen. The only thing you can do is to take direct action on your own. You have to understand that you are thoroughly on your own. There is no regulator. There is no oversight. There are no regulatory standards. There is no ombudsman subject to any kind of statutory imperative. Citizens advice all interested – well-intentioned – but that's about it. Trading standards won't take any notice – they have bigger fish to fry and none of these people anyway are interested in helping an individual get redress. You have to do on your own. There's no point in going to the press – the story isn't big enough and the press is overwhelmed with stories from everywhere.

If you are prepared to settle down and take direct action then you may as well give up. And also these companies thrive on the kind of inaction or irregular interest that is taken by people who are too busy to focus and sort the issue out.

I'm sorry that the seem probably quite harsh words – but that's the way it works.

Please monitor the thread and I'll have a look and try to catch up. If you do write to any of these agencies and let us know. But don't hold your breath – believe me you will simply fatigue yourself and the only people to benefit will be Hermes and Amazon because they thrive on the innocence of people who think that there are organisations around to help them. There aren't

[BankFodder]

Okay I've gone through the trade and I think I'm up to speed.

The last thing I know is that you were advised to write to Amazon or to have some discussion with them to see what their response would be. Have you done this?

Anyway, I don't think that you can let it go any longer. £2000 is a lot of money to be out of pocket. Have you read around this forum about the steps required to take a small claim in the County Court?

If you are familiar with the steps and you are happy to go ahead then the next step will be to send a letter of claim. This will give 14 days for them to reimburse you or else you will sue them.

At the end of the 14 days – day 15 – you click off the claim. If you have any doubts about this then don't send the letter – but frankly if you are prepared to go ahead and issue the claim papers and follow through, then I think you may as well write it all off because nobody is going to help you until you start to get assertive. The County Court papers will put you in control because there will be deadline set by the court process which they will have to comply with. Suddenly there are going to have to start taking notice and respond.

Let us know what you want to do.

[VGTom]

Quote

Please monitor the thread and I'll have a look and try to catch up. If you do write to any of these agencies and let us know. But don't hold your breath – believe me you will simply fatigue yourself and the only people to benefit will be Hermes and Amazon because they thrive on the innocence of people who think that there are organisations around to help them. There aren't

Hey again! I completely get your point and I agree with you. Again sorry for not writing for weeks, to be honest, I was also waiting for a reply from Amazon (I had to contact them three times, the amazon associates are awful... they don't read your messages and they just don't care in general).

 

Quote

The last thing I know is that you were advised to write to Amazon or to have some discussion with them to see what their response would be. Have you done this?
 

Yes, I have and I just got an email from them actually (2 days ago)... They have finally understood that the item is lost in transit... They told me this:
"As the item has been lost in transit, I have referred to our higher team and have raised an investigation for the item missed. (I have been assigned a case ID as well). So I request you to wait for 72 hours until the investigation is completed and we can help you further."

We will see if they understood that message I wrote to them about how I did what I was told by the customer service assistant, etc... I am going to send you their reply as soon as I get an email from them. But I feel like the next step will be to send the letter before action.

Btw I have read around about the steps required to take a small claim. The only thing I'm afraid of is losing even more money (if I lose), but I guess this is just a risk I have to take. When claiming 2000 I think i can lose around 400 in total. 

Will get back to you as soon as I get a reply from Amazon. 

[BankFodder]

Yes, £400 may be the extent of your risk. I think the chances of losing our remote. Your chances of success are much better than 90% and of course I can imagine that there is a big chance Amazon would put their hands up.

Anyway, the message you have had from Amazon after this delay is very positive. They asked for 72 hours. You said that you receive the message a couple of days ago so I suggest that you give them until tomorrow afternoon then send them a reminder. Then another reminder on Monday and then maybe we move to the letter of claim.

Sending a letter of claim doesn't commit you to anything and it gives them 14 days to react. However, at the end of the 14 days you should absolutely issue the claim. You need to get back into control of this.

[VGTom]

Hello! So I directly contacted the managing director at [email protected] (as I haven't heard back from anyone about that "ongoing investigation")and I got the following reply: 
My name is Jaluk Singh from the Amazon.co.uk Amazon Executive Customer Relations Team. Your correspondence has been brought to my attention, and I wanted to personally respond.
"I understand that you did not return the order using the Amazon pre-paid label as you had some problems during the collection. Since you used your own label, I recommend that you directly contact the carrier used and see all possible options. Amazon.co.uk is not able to resolve return issues when our return mailing label isn't used. I hope this helps."

I immediately replied and tried to explain the situation (that I acted on Amazon's behalf when returning the defective laptop as I was told to do so by the CS assistant, etc.) and today I got the following reply: 
"Jaluk here. As stated in my previous email, we suggest that you contact the carrier you used for this return to initiate an investigation, file a claim, or enquire about other options they may have available.
Amazon.co.uk is not able to resolve return issues when our return mailing label isn't used, so we recommend that you purchase insurance on any return if you choose to send the item on your own.
Thank you for understanding."

So I think we should definitely move on to sending a letter of claim. I do have one question though. As stated in Jaluk's email: "Amazon.co.uk is not able to resolve return issues when our return mailing label isn't used, so we recommend that you purchase insurance on any return if you choose to send the item on your own." This part is probably in the term and conditions that I accepted when purchasing the item. Does that change anything? Can they build their defense on that? As I told you before when I first contacted Amazon the customer service assistant did ask me if I wanted to proceed with me organizing the delivery or them organizing another (third) Hermes pick-up but he did point out that it seems useless as they already failed to collect it twice.

[BankFodder]

If you have evidence that you followed Amazon's instructions and but on two occasions Amazon appointed courier did not collect the item and then they told you to make your own arrangements so that you were simply following their instructions, then I think that you have a very reasonable case against Amazon.

 

it seems to me that from the moment they decided to appoint a courier and the courier let them down and you simply followed their instructions that they were in control.  I think it helps also that the courier service you chose was their own preferred courier.  I think this puts Amazon in an especially difficult position.

 

of course this will be a very unconventional claim and I can imagine that they will put in a defence and that they will take you to a hearing and that it will not be slam dunk but I would say that your chances are much better than 85%

 

However of course it is your risk, your case to lose and your case to win and you will have to make the decision as to whether or not to go ahead. As you should know by now we will support you.

 

Double check all the evidence you have and be satisfied that it tells the story that you want it to tell

[VGTom]

Is there any way for me to send you the chat transcript (I am talking about just a few lines, the important ones) so you can check if what you see there is enough evidence? I only have screenshots, I can't just copy/paste the conversation here. Or if you want I can just write it all down here so other people checking the forum can still see the conversation. 

About the letter before action: I have looked at the other topics but I am not sure which template should I go with. I understand that I shouldn't really go into details about the case but make it brief instead. Can you suggest me a template to use? 

[BankFodder]

In terms of the chat transcript, convert the screenshots into PDF format and post them up.

In terms of the letter of action – there is no template. Construct a letter of action without too much narrative and giving them a 14 day deadline. There are quite a few examples on this sub- forum but no template. Post it up here and we'll have a look

[VGTom]

Thanks, I will do both the transcript and letter of action before Monday and post them here. Enjoy your weekend!

[VGTom]

Hello! Please see the chat transcript attached. I am still working on the letter of action, will post it as soon as I'm done. So regarding the chat transcript: this is basically the ONLY evidence I have. What do you think? Is it enough to support my case? 
Chat_transcript_typed.pdf
 

[BankFodder]

This chat transcript is excellent. Presumably you have got the original and I think that you have got a very high chance and when Amazon actually see your arguments – meaning that it goes to a legal department and they start reading what you have to say, I think there's a good chance that they will put their hands up – although they may try to compromise at mediation.
We will deal with that when it comes to it.

Post up what you've done on the letter of claim so far. It's not really something that needs a lot of "working on". The particulars of claim would need a little bit more thought – but not much.

 

[VGTom]

Yes, I have the original ones (by that I mean screenshots of the chat as Amazon uk is not able to send chat transcripts to emails + you can't ask for chat transcripts that happened in the past... how convenient for them). I forgot to post it the following day, here is the letter of claim: 
 

Quote

 

Dear Sir/Madam,

 

Letter of Claim

Order number: 203-6116510-3577923

 

On 29^th August 2020 I used your platform to place an order for a Gigabyte Aero 17 XB laptop. The laptop I received was faulty so I decided to send it back for refund. You arranged a return with your preferred courier – Hermes – and booked a collection of the laptop from my address. However, your courier, Hermes, failed to make the collection on both occasions. I then contacted your customer service department and was instructed by them to arrange the return myself “as more waiting could prove useless” and that I would then be refunded any expenses.

I followed your instructions and decided to use your own preferred courier service – Hermes. You failed to organize the pick-up on two consecutive times after which I was advised by a customer service assistant to organize the return myself “as more waiting could prove useless”. I was told that there was no way for you to create a pre-paid Hermes label for the laptop so I could just buy it myself instead and ask for a refund for the postal fees.

The parcel was dispatched using the Hermes service but did not arrive at its intended destination and upon contacting Hermes I’ve learnt that the parcel has been lost in transit.

I have followed Amazon's instructions at every step. It was Amazon who arranged for the item to be picked up by Hermes. Hermes failed to collect it so that that was Amazon's failure and definitely not mine. Amazon then acknowledged the failure and went on to give new instructions that I should make my own arrangements. I followed those instructions to the letter and in fact I chose Hermes which was Amazon's courier of choice anyway – so Amazon couldn't possibly object to that choice – and so in fact by doing that I was acting on Amazon's behalf to return Amazon's DEFECTIVE product.

 

Despite following Amazon's own instructions for the return of the faulty laptop, Amazon has now declined to accept any responsibility and refused to reimburse me.

I'm writing to inform you that if I do not receive full reimbursement plus delivery expenses within 14 days of £XXX that I will see you in the County Court and without any further notice

Therefore I am seeking the value of the laptop at £2,013.98.

If I do not receive this sum in full within 14 days then I shall issue a claim in the County Court and without any further notice

Yours faithfully,
{my name}

 

 

So do I just send this to Amazon via email? If yes, I will both start a new chat with a CS assistant and send it there and send it to [email protected] as well. 

[BankFodder]

Okay I've made quite a lot of edits. Please would you clean it up and then post it again and we'll double check it

[VGTom]

Hey, thanks for the edits. So this is how it looks like now:

 

Quote

Dear Sir/Madam,

 

Letter of Claim

Order number: 203-6116510-3577923

 

On 29th August 2020 I used your platform to place an order for a Gigabyte Aero 17 XB laptop. The laptop I received was faulty so I decided to send it back for refund. On two occasions you arranged a return with your preferred courier – Hermes – and booked a collection of the laptop from my address. However, your courier, Hermes, failed to make the collection on both occasions.

I then contacted your customer service department and was instructed by them to arrange the return myself “as more waiting could prove useless” and that I would then be refunded any expenses. I followed your instructions and decided to use your own preferred courier service – Hermes.

The parcel was dispatched using the Hermes service but did not arrive at its intended destination and upon contacting Hermes I’ve learnt that the parcel has been lost in transit.

Despite following your own instructions for the return of the faulty laptop, you have now declined to accept any responsibility and refused to reimburse me.

I'm writing to inform you that if I do not receive full reimbursement plus delivery expenses within 14 days of 16^th December 2020 that I will sue you in the County Court and without any further notice

Yours faithfully,

 

 

[BankFodder]

Okay I've made an additional edit and a typo correction.

If you are happy with it and you are prepared to sue on those facts, send it.

I suggest that you don't simply give it to a customer services agent. I think it's more formal than that and you should send it to an official Amazon email address in England.

[VGTom]

Oh I am prepared to sue! And thank you again for the edits. Also, should I send it by post as well? 

[BankFodder]

Yes, send a copy by post – but in which case start of the letter "I confirm my letter of claim which I said to you by email on XXX date to the following email address XXX at XXX".

Also, amend the heading so that it says "written confirmation of emailed letter of claim".

That way there will be no ambiguity as to which is the letter of claim – the starting date and the 14 day deadline.

[VGTom]

Oh and one more thing. I think there is one more important thing about this case that I should mention in the letter of claim. So I got the following response from the head offices: "Since you used your own label, I recommend that you directly contact the carrier used and see all possible options" I feel like they are trying to blame me for using my own label. I think it would be important to point out that this was the only option left and that I was told to do that as they weren't able to create a prepaid shipping label for me. What would be the best way to incorporate this into the letter of claim?

[BankFodder]

I don't think you need to include that at all. I shouldn't rise to it and give it any validity by responding to the point.

Let them raise that in their defence if they want. I think that the letter of claim that we have worked out says everything that is needed to begin the action.