Hermes not able to locate package (lost package)

[VGTom]

Hello everyone!

I have just stumbled upon this website and read through some of the topics. Unfortunately the thing that I was incredibly scared of happened: Hermes lost my package. I would like to ask you guys to help me. I have never been in this situation and I am really not sure what to do. So I wanted to return a laptop I bought on Amazon (worth £2000) using Hermes. As Amazon couldn't create a drop off label for the item they advised me to send the item back myself, after which they would issue the refund to me. (Also there was no option for them to print a hermes return label, which is weird). I dropped the item off at one of Hermes' drop off locations (ParcelShop) on the 2nd of October around 13:00. I have waited more than three weeks now and the tracking still hasn't been updated. It is stuck at "We've collected your parcel from the drop off point and it's on its way" - 3rd Oct 13:02. I have contacted Hermes regarding this issue and I got the following reply: 

Thanks for getting in touch with us about parcel number ###.
We're so are sorry that despite an extensive investigation, we haven't been able locate your parcel. We appreciate that this is not the outcome you were hoping for, however, we do offer cover to assist in this situation and we will happily support you through the process of making a claim.
During our claims process, if your parcel is located, we will endeavour to deliver this to your recipient as quickly as possible.
Our aim is always to complete all claims within 14 working days of receipt.
https://support.myhermes.co.uk/app/ask
Should you wish to submit your claim, please complete the following online form:
https://support.myhermes.co......
Please note if you choose to refund your customer before this claim is finalised then you must do so at your own risk. If the parcel is located it will be delivered to the intended recipient and the claim will be closed

Now I have submitted a claim but the maximum value that I can claim for was 999 (half of the original value) and also I didn't buy any insurance (because it tops out at 300 only...) so I am sure I am not eligible for a compensation (plus laptops are on the non-compensation list). So I am thinking about suing them for negligence and I would very much appreciate if someone could help me with this. Do you think I have a right for a full refund? After all they lost something that was mine. I feel like there must be a way to make them liable for this. Another question: amazon doesn't really want to help me, they tell me that it is Hermes's fault and they can't help me with the refund unless they get the laptop. I was told that if THEY issued the Hermes return label, they would have been able to refund me. But in this case I organized the return so they can't help me. But I am not sure if they realize that it was THEIR customer services assistant who told me to send the laptop by a choice of my courier (there were only two shipping methods for the return: me organising the whole shipping part myself or hermes home-pickup. First I opted for the latter but after waiting 5 days for them to collect it I contacted amazon where they told me they would cancel the refund process and I should send it by myself). Please help me guys, I am torn, I feel like my hands are completely tied here.

Thanks for any help!

 

Edited October 22, 2020 by VGTom

[BankFodder]

When you left the parcel with the parcel shop, did you declare the contents of it and the value correctly?

[VGTom]

It was Amazon yes, I have a screenshot of that conversation actually. Ok, more precisely they told me to use any parcel delivery service like parcelmonkey or the like and just organize the shipping myself. I could only declare 999 pounds as that is the maximum value i could put there. But yes for the contents I wrote laptop.

[BankFodder]

Please read around all the hermes threads here and monitor this thread for a reply tomorrow

[Nobby_v]

Got the same issue at the moment with Hermes. Mobile phone sold on eBay. Used the eBay services for posting. Hermes lost the parcel after collecting it. But have to wait 14 days. Overall pretty poor but will take county court action for the costs. 

 

If I find out more I'll post here. Amazon usually credit once the item is collected.

 

Pretty messy.

[VGTom]

37 minutes ago, BankFodder said:

Please read around all the hermes threads here and monitor this thread for a reply tomorrow

Will do!

[VGTom]

One thing that I would like to add is that I am still not sure if Amazon can be held liable for this or not. After all they were the ones recommending me to organize the shipping myself instead of using their prepaid hermes label (which was not even available for the item). Amazon is still investigeting btw, I was promised to be contacted in 48 hours. But I have talked to several amazon associates in the past days and the whole case is just a mess. I get emails from different customer service assistants, most of them trying to shift the blame to Hermes. I would like to convince Amazon to issue the refund and deal with Hermes instead of me. Do you think it is a reasonable thing to do? I am also not sure how to tell them this. So far my tone was very modest and understanding, I am not sure if it's a good idea to start threating amazon. I was thinking about going with something like this:

" I returned this item using my own label because I WAS TOLD by an amazon customer service ASSISTANT to do so. I have the conversation saved in case you need it. I would have never done it myself otherwise. Reason why is because there was NO option for you to issue a return label for the item in question (me and your colleague both couldn't select that option), there was another option, which was the hermes home-pickup, but we had been waiting for Hermes to come and pick the laptop up for days (before contacting you for the first time) to no avail. I told this to the amazon customer service assistant who then suggested we shouldn't wait for hermes anymore and I should organize the delivery myself. So basically that was the ONLY option for refund within the return window. I understand your point, but do you think it's fair to tell customers to use a specific shipping method and put the responsibility on them? I am terribly sorry that I haven't used your pre-paid return label but I haven't been provided the option to do so."

How do you think I should go about it? Once I read that Amazon can be very reasonable when it comes to refunds.

And to top all of this it might be worth mentioning to you that there was another item that I sent back for refund with the laptop (I dropped it off at the same ParcelShop at the same time). For that Amazon WAS able to provide a prepaid shipping label (value: 500 pounds). Guess what? That package is lost as well, but I have been issued a refund for that by Amazon as I used their prepaid shipping label for that item. I haven't opened a claim/dispute for that item with Hermes yet, maybe I should do so.

Edited October 23, 2020 by VGTom

[BankFodder]

First of all, as a general principle I think you have committed a double whammy here. First of all you agreed to undertake the responsibility for getting the parcel back yourself rather than let Amazon do it. I read about the problems that you had using the Amazon system – but at the end of the day, he eventually followed advice from Amazon and undertook to do it yourself. In principle this puts you in the frame.

Second very big problem is that you undervalued the laptop. I understand perfectly well that you put in the maximum you could do on the Hermes website – but still, you valued it at £999 when in fact it was worth twice that much. I can tell you now that if you are going to proceed against Hermes then it will only be for the declared amount.

A contract is about a mutually agreed arrangement where Hermes agrees to undertake a certain service and shoulder a certain risk in return for the delivery fee. They believe that they were taking a laptop value £999 and I don't think that a judge would order anything more than that sum if you took it to court and if you won.

In terms of Amazon, obviously it would be better if you could fix the blame on Amazon on the basis that you took their advice using their parcel, that failed and then once again on their advice you organise your own delivery. There is quite a lot of weight to this argument. Of course you still have the problem of having undervalued it and that might follow you around even if you decided to go for Amazon.

I know the Amazon can be very reasonable when it comes to refunds – but here we are talking about quite a lot of money – and also Amazon's position will be that you made your own arrangements for the return which on one hand is true – but on the other hand is untrue because you are simply following their advice.

Why did you return the laptop? Was it because it was defective you had simply changed your mind?

[BankFodder]

And @Nobby_v, please could you start your own thread and tell us your Hermes story separately. Thanks

[BankFodder]

Also, can you clarify – when you sent off a laptop, you declared the full value? Correct?

[VGTom]

I completely agreee with what you're saying, obviously I made a huge mistake here, never should have listened to Amazon and should have just waited for Hermes to come and collect the laptop. The laptop wasn't faulty but did have some flaws that justifies a return (screen bleeding was my biggest issue).

Quote

They believe that they were taking a laptop value £999 and I don't think that a judge would order anything more than that sum if you took it to court and if you won.

 

Yes I understand that, probably I will have to claim that amount instead of the full one.

 

Quote

when you sent off a laptop, you declared the full value? Correct?

If you mean £999, then yes, I am 99% sure about this but I can't check it anywhere in the system so I might have to wait for their reply to my claim. 

Any thoughts on this? 
 

Quote

And to top all of this it might be worth mentioning to you that there was another item that I sent back for refund with the laptop (I dropped it off at the same ParcelShop at the same time). For that Amazon WAS able to provide a prepaid shipping label (value: 500 pounds). Guess what? That package is lost as well, but I have been issued a refund for that by Amazon as I used their prepaid shipping label for that item. I haven't opened a claim/dispute for that item with Hermes yet, maybe I should do so.

 

[BankFodder]

No when I say that you declared the full value for the delivery – I mean the £2000?

There are two reasons why you might want to return the item. One is because under the distance selling rules you simply change your mind and you return it within the cooling off period. The second reason you might want to return it – and that seems to be the case with you – is that the laptop was faulty and you made Amazon aware that it was defective.

I think this gives you a better case than I had thought and although it is still risky, may be you should consider going for Amazon. I think we will have to work it out quite closely.

First thing, it's really becoming unclear as to what you declared when you arrange the delivery – and what you declared when you made the claim. We are not interested really in what you declared when you made the claim. We interested in what Hermes agreed to do for you when you arranged the delivery. You booked the delivery, you declared that it was a laptop, and you told them that it was what value?

[VGTom]

So basically how it works on Amazon is when you return you have to select a reason for returning the item from a dropdown. There I have selected performance or quality not adequate. That was the only time they asked me why I am returning the product. I have declared 999 both for making a claim and when arranging the delivery (as I said I couldn't input a higher number, it wouldn't have let me to proceed otherwise).

[BankFodder]

Just a minute, you put the value into the Amazon website?

But when you organise the delivery with Hermes directly, that had nothing to do with the Amazon website. You must have told them what it was you were sending and given them a value there

[VGTom]

No sorry for not being clear, my bad. The first part of my reply was for when I initiated the return process on the Amazon website. The second was on the Hermes website.

[BankFodder]

This I'm very sorry but I'm struggling here.

You really aren't being very clear about values. So start again.

You bought a laptop – £2000. It was faulty

you arranged with Amazon to send it back using their label service.
The label service failed.
He took advice from Amazon to undertake the return yourself.
You arranged it through Hermes – and how did you declare the item? – Type of item and value of item.




 

[VGTom]

Type (description) of the item: laptop.
Value: £999.

The rest is correct :).

[BankFodder]

So you contracted with Hermes sending a laptop and told them that it was £999.

When you tried to arrange the delivery directly through Amazon, they knew what it was and they knew the full value

[VGTom]

Correct. 

 

[BankFodder]

So you can either proceed against Amazon on the basis that you followed their advice and their preferred delivery agent (they recommended Hermes???) And that the laptop was defective so that Amazon was already in breach of contract and they knew everything about it including the value.

Or you can try and sue Hermes for £999 on the basis that they knew what the item was but they still accepted it and in any event that is not relevant to their prohibited items list and they breach their contract by dealing with the laptop negligently.

Can you confirm that Amazon recommended Hermes

[VGTom]

Which one would you recommend me doing? And what do you mean by proceed against Amazon? Sue them or just bring this whole thing up in more agressive manner? As for your question I have a small part of the conversation I had with the assistant. I was told: "I could only find the pickup option. So you could arrange your own return using parcel monkey: www.parcelmonkey.com or any similar service. Keep the receipt and send it to: ...url... And we will refund you the postage fees" 

But before that I remember them saying that there is no point in waiting for Hermes home-pickup anymore as they hadn't collected my parcel twice already. Then they suggested that I organized the return myself and then asked me which one do I want to proceed with: the Hermes home-pickup again or me organizing the return myself. 

[BankFodder]

Well I don't think that Amazon are going to be particular bothered about being challenged in an aggressive manner. I think charm and reason with their telephone operatives is probably the best thing. It would have been nice if they had specifically recommended Hermes because then you'd have a very solid case. As it is they recommended parcel monkey but you really opted not to take it.

It's I suppose I would try very hard to charm Amazon into seeing it your way – but I don't fancy your chances – and I think that you might end up having to bring a legal action against them – and I have to say that I rate your chances at about 70% success – which doesn't really make me feel very comfortable. The advantage of suing Amazon is that you can sue them for the whole value. Also, if you failed then you can go back and sue Hermes for half the value with a somewhat better chance of success – although of course they will rely on the fact that it was on their prohibited items list and also that you hadn't taken out insurance to protect them against their own breach of contract or negligence.

I think you're in a difficult situation. Whichever you decide then we will help you. I think you need to visit the County Court website and assess the cost of bringing an action for £2000 because that would be a risk factor if you lost – that you wouldn't recover your fees.
One other thing to consider is that if Hermes decide to defend it then they will probably defend quite vigourously because it's no skin off their nose if they lose.

On the other hand, Hermes might choose not to defend because if they lost, then it would damage their entire insurance/compensation business model. On the other hand, this might be a value – £999 – that they would be prepared to go to a hearing over.

[VGTom]

"As it is they recommended parcel monkey but you really opted not to take it." - well they recommended parcel monkey OR any similar service. From the sentence it feels like parcel monkey was just an example. 

Another thing I wanted to correct is that laptops are on the non-compensation list, not the prohibited items list (devices that need battery to operate are not prohibited, only plain batteries) but I am not sure if this makes any difference. 

I might want to try "very hard to charm Amazon into seeing things my way" first if that is all right with you too.

Btw I just checked the County Court website and the fee would be £105 to claim £2000. £60 if I claim the £999 from Hermes. Both of which seems very reasonable.

[BankFodder]

There's nothing all right or nothing all right with me. These are judgements that you have to make. I'm simply trying to suggest ways forward and then guide you through the litigation process if that's what you want to do.

What is important here is that Amazon, by first will offering Hermes, clearly considered that it was a suitable service to use despite the fact that apparently they don't take laptops and they have a maximum value limit.

The fact that an item contains batteries – always fragile – horse for some reason rather is on one of Hermes lists, has nothing to do with it being lost. If it caught fire because of batteries in it then the list would be relevant. What is unacceptable is that Hermes use this list to defeat all claims regardless of the relevance of the list.

In terms of the court fees, you have identified the claim fees – but if Hermes push you to a hearing – as they surely will – then you have to take into account the hearing fees as well. You need to look those up as well

[VGTom]

Quote

There's nothing all right or nothing all right with me. These are judgements that you have to make. I'm simply trying to suggest ways forward and then guide you through the litigation process if that's what you want to do.
 

Understood.

Maybe as a first step it would be a good idea to write to Amazon and tell them that I would have selected the prepaid hermes drop-off option, like I always do, but I wasn't able to as that option wasn't available for the laptop. Additionally, after Hermes not collecting the item on two consecutive times with the Hermes home pick-up option, I was advised by a customer service assistant to organize the return myself as there is no point in choosing the home pick-up service for the third time. Following his advice and returning the laptop myself being the only available option to send it back to Amazon, I have decided to organize the return myself. I was told that I can use any of the shipping services. To quote I was told: "I could only find the pickup option. So you could arrange your own return using parcel monkey: www.parcelmonkey.com or any similar service. Keep the receipt and send it to: ...url... And we will refund you the postage fees". I didn't get any other instructions and I did what I was told by the assistant to the letter. 

What else should I add? Should I mention anything else?

 

Quote

In terms of the court fees, you have identified the claim fees – but if Hermes push you to a hearing – as they surely will – then you have to take into account the hearing fees as well. You need to look those up as well

I understand that. I am not afraid of that, I do think that nothing protects them from having to compensate a consumer where they have failed to take reasonable care in performing the contracted service. They have a general duty of care, and they have also failed to provide the service paid for. I really hope that the judge sees it that way too.

But maybe Amazon realize the mistake they made and I won't have to sue Hermes. To be honest I think it is disgusting what they do... There is no way to lose a package of 70X40X15. It is way too big. And what are the chances that they lose another package of mine that I send with the laptop at the same time? Obviously someone stole them. What else could have happened? How can they not find the driver who was responsible for the package at the time of moving it from the ParcelShop to the sorting warehouse? And if something happened to the car/driver, it must be logged somewhere. And I would like to see that log (I actually asked them to provide that in my last letter). The whole thing is just unbeliavable.