Jump to content

  • Tweets

  • Posts

    • hi all. bit of advice please. I had a Three contract up until November last year. At £11pcm for 24mths. Paid every month on time via their online portal. When I ported over, I received a letter from Three thanking me for being a customer blah blah blah.. It also said IF I owed anything a final bill will be sent. No final bill ever received - I get a phone call around the first week in December form an Indian sounding man who was extremly difficult to understand. Said he was calling from Three, and wanted me to confirm my details - something of which I didnt as something didnt sit right. He said I could log into my account and review my bill as I owed money and then hung up. After the call I thought I'd best log into my account just in case.  Couldnt log in. Account access denied. Logged on to chat - they said as I ported over and I was no longer a customer my access was suspended. Couple of weeks later I had another call from a local area number and answered again it was some Indian guy telling me I owed money, wanting me to confirm details. I refused and he said details will be sent out to me to my email on account and my home address as it was important. Once again nothing.. 15th Dec I received an email from PastDue in my name RE Three. Email stated they were contacting me about Three an I should receive a letter soon regards to this matter. Says about visiting their website.  22nd Jan another email form Pastdue. Stating they have yet to receive a response to the letter, and they had already sent me an email about this. We will continue to contact you until this matter is resolved. Again asks me to login. 23rd Jan letter received dated 13th Jan. Titled "We are here to help keep your Three Services"  Claiming I owed "Airetime Balance £201.43" and contract period was 26/11/2019 to 25/11/2020 States "We have been appointed by Three to recover the amount of £201.43. If you pay this amount in full Three may be able to waive the cancellation fee and reconnect their service for you" - what cancellation fee / re connection??? I ended the contract giving the 30days notice and paying the last bill.. Then the normal crap about its important to pay. If I'm experiencing difficulties etc. Now both December and  January Credit reports from ClearScore, Credit Karma, Credit Expert, Totally Money and Equifax all show Three as Closed and balance as Zero. (Date Satisfied /closed 17th Nov, bal 0, last updated 30th Nov) I've had nothing from Three. As far as I'm concerned I owe nothing as no final bill and no access to the portal. Should I email PastDue and do a prove it & attach proof of Credit Reports being £0 or do I do something else?  
    • Hi she did say she was cancelling and returned the equipment. It looks like they put her on a rolling contract for 24 months when she phoned before trying to reduce her payments as they kept going up. I know Sky haven't done that to me. She didn't see that email as she's had lots of stressful situations. No.letter in post or when she originally phoned about reducing her bill well over £100 they didn't tell her about this contract. Like you say there should be recordings. BT mobile contract is separate to broadband and the cancellation fee is for the broadband. They have blocked her mobile so she can't use it and that is a contract. She is phoning CAB in the morning and checking through her paperwork. I'm quite happy with Sky as they tell you upfront what is happening and have never rolled over my contract. Thanks for taking time to reply it is much appreciated. 
    • I've sent an email to a press contact And one to a journalist at the BBC!
  • Our picks

    • I sent in the bailiffs to the BBC. They collected £350. It made me smile.
        • Haha
    • Hi @BankFodder
      Sorry for only updating you now, but after your guidance with submitting the claim it was pretty straight forward and I didn't want to unnecessarily waste your time. Especially with this guide you wrote here, so many thanks for that
      So I issued the claim on day 15 and they requested more time to respond.
      They took until the last day to respond and denied the claim, unsurprisingly saying my contract was with Packlink and not with them.
      I opted for mediation, and it played out very similarly to other people's experiences.
      In the first call I outlined my case, and I referred to the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 as the reason to why I do in fact have a contract with them. 
      In the second call the mediator came back with an offer of the full amount of the phone and postage £146.93, but not the court costs. I said I was not willing to accept this and the mediator came across as a bit irritated that I would not accept this and said I should be flexible. I insisted that the law was on my side and I was willing to take them to court. The mediator went back to Hermes with what I said.
      In the third call the mediator said that they would offer the full amount. However, he said that Hermes still thought that I should have taken the case against Packlink instead, and that they would try to recover the court costs themselves from Packlink.
      To be fair to them, if Packlink wasn't based in Spain I would've made the claim against them instead. But since they are overseas and the law lets me take action against Hermes directly, it's the best way of trying to recover the money.
      So this is a great win. Thank you so much for your help and all of the resources available on this site. It has helped me so much especially as someone who does not know anything about making money claims.
      Many thanks, stay safe and have a good Christmas!
        • Thanks
    • Hermes and mediation hints. https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/428981-hermes-and-mediation-hints/&do=findComment&comment=5080003
      • 1 reply
    • Natwest Bank Transfer Fraud Call HMRC Please help. https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/428951-natwest-bank-transfer-fraud-call-hmrc-please-help/&do=findComment&comment=5079786
      • 31 replies

Hot water cylinder - faulty during warranty period - manufacturer rejects claim

Recommended Posts


1/ A neighbor had new boiler installed, at the same time the plumber replaces the 30 year old (copper) hot water cylinder as a precaution


2/ Five years later this (new) cylinder develops a leak. There are holes where corrosion has occurred in the copper at the point where the immersion heater boss is joined into the cylinder. The cylinder has a large notice on it stating it is covered by a ten year warranty.


3/ A plumber replaces the hot water cylinder. The faulty cylinder is sent to the original supplying merchant who returns it to the manufacturer as a warranty claim.


4/ Approx 5 months later the manufacturer rejects the claim stating that they do not warrant against corrosion.


5/ Neighbor phones manufacturer who states that they only offer a 10 year warranty as other manufacturers offered it on their cylinders and they had to offer 10 years in order to compete. They didn't want to offer 10 years, they exclude corrosion however caused, and have no intention of considering this claim.

This seems unreasonable


a) The cylinder was professionally installed using the correct fittings, the use is on domestic hot water. The previous cylinder was 30 years old and still in service. Therefor we expect at least a 20 year life, or certainly much more than 10 years.


b) The exclusion of corrosion is again unreasonable, cylinders do fail due to corrosion, but normally in 20 or 30 years, not 5 years. If the copper were of poor quality, included defects, or the copper was thin due to poor forming during manufacture, then premature corrosion could occur. So the manufacturer is effectively excluding defective materials from the warranty.


c) We don't know when the clause regarding corrosion was added to the terms and conditions as no t&c's were provided with the cylinder.


d) In summary it seems the product was not of merchantable quality. The manufacturer promotes the product with a 10 year warranty and then hides behind unreasonable terms when there is a claim.

Should my neighbor proceed with a claim against the manufacturer, does he have any hope of success, how should he proceed

Link to post
Share on other sites

Who supplied the cylinder?

Have you seen the written terms of the warranty?

Have you taken any photographs or anything of the corroded cylinder? Do you have access to it now?

It might be an idea if you had a look at warranties of other manufacturers to see what they are saying about corrosion of their cylinders.

Why is in your neighbour coming to do this himself?

Link to post
Share on other sites

The cylinder was supplied by the plumber who replaced the boiler. Purchased from a plumbers merchant. The plumber has retired, the plumbers merchant just passes the issue over to the manufacturer.


The cylinder has a large label that simply states '10 Year Warranty', does not state that the warranty is subject to conditions. The manufacturers web site has t&c's which state exclusion where  'the defect arises as a result of fair wear and tear, (including, but not limited to, corrosion or scale damage) wilful damage, negligence, or abnormal storage or abnormal working conditions;' these are not dated so we don't know when they were published, and we don't think 5 years is enough to qualify as 'fair wear and tear' from the point of view of failure


We have photographs - cylinder was returned to manufacturer but we have asked for ot to be returned


Another manufacturer I checked states 10 Year Warranty - but have same terms regarding corrosion - perhaps an industry standard escape clause


The neighbor is elderly 





Link to post
Share on other sites

Okay, the next thing to find out is whether the corrosion you experienced is normal for a cylinder of that age or if it was excessive.

You will have to make some enquiries and also you should look around the Internet to find out what the general wisdom is about cylinders of that make.

How long has the manufacturer had the cylinder in their possession?


What I am eventually proposing is that if you can basically get information or evidence that the corrosion you suffered on a cylinder of only five years of age is far more than wear and tear and should be attributed to some other defects, then you should sue the plumbers merchant on the basis that they provided a cylinder which was not of satisfactory quality. You would assert your contractual rights under the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999. It seemed clear to me that if a plumber purchases a cylinder for a client from a plumbers merchant then both parties must realise that the client is intended to benefit from the contract and I would say that that would then potentially give you some rights. I think you would have a very strong case for arguing this.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you for the advice.


 I have looked around for opinion on the lifetime of a copper cylinder. As usual with the Internet there are a wide range of opinion and experience. Ignoring those experiencing premature failures the general view is 15 to 20 years, certainly more than 10 years. The potable water in this area is does have some mineral content but it is relatively low. When I removed my own water cylinder after 25 years there was very little sign of scale, the cylinder was still showing no external sign of corrosion, but the copper had become thin and it proved easy to break. So I think 15 years should be a minimum, allowing for the 'fact' that 'current products have been value engineered' when compared with those of 30 years ago. (as has also happened with the reduced wall thickness of copper pipe)


My personal view is that the materials of construction were not fit for purpose, either through an inclusion in the copper sheet, or the forming of the copper sheet resulted in it being too thin where the immersion heater boss was attached, or probably a combination of both conditions.


Again my thanks for your help, I will discuss with my neighbor and let him determine.his next step.







Link to post
Share on other sites

I asked you how long it has been with the manufacturer and what are you doing to try and get it back. It seems to me to be a bit ominous that they have it – which means that they have the evidence in their possession.

What does the manufacturer claim about these cylinders? Have you looked on their website? Have you looked at the website of the plumbers merchant to see what they say about them?

I think you need to start accumulating some fairly authoritative -looking evidence – as well as anecdotes from the Internet.

Is your retired plumber prepared to get involved and is he prepared to give his opinion in a statement as to the expected life of the cylinder and the likely cause of the failure of your one?

Link to post
Share on other sites

The cylinder was returned to the supplying merchant at the end of March 2020 and the reply from the merchant was received on the 24 September 2020. My neighbour has requested that his property (the faulty cylinder) is returned to him.


We know the cylinder was manufactured on 19/05/15 so it was not on the shelf for very long


The manufacturers web site currently states

 -  hot water storage cylinders are manufactured in the UK from premium quality copper in accordance with BSI566:2002 (Part L)

 -    Carrying extensive warranties*, cylinders are available in capacities of 50-440 litres.................... there is no reference to the * on this page

and also on another page


 - Manufactured in accordance with BSI566:2002 (Part L)

 - 10 year manufacturing warranty*   (*Terms & Conditions apply)


Both old and new plumbers will be contacted regarding their opinions


Thanks & best regards


Link to post
Share on other sites

So it has been returned to the supplier – the plumbers merchant and not the manufacturer?

It certainly seems as if they have had a a long time. I wonder if you will manage to get it back?


Also, you say that there is nothing in writing to explain the terms and conditions of the warranty. Is there nothing on the website?

If the warranty is simply provided without any qualifications or exclusions then it seems to me that they would not be able to distance themselves from corrosion.

Very foolish of them to offer a warranty without explaining the terms of the warranty – but that probably would play in your favour. Was something extra paid for the warranty or did it simply come with the cylinder?

Link to post
Share on other sites


My neighbor just has the invoice from the plumber for the work done and materials supplied. The cylinder has a prominent large orange label that clearly states  '10 Year Warranty'' and there is no further qualification. No other paperwork was provided.  So the man on the Clapham Omnibus would expect that they had the benefit of a 10 year warranty as sated on the tin.


The '10 Year warranty' is standard, provided with the product, and was clearly aimed to win sales.


The manufacturers web site does currently list T&Cs that qualify the warranty, We don't know if these T&Cs are as they were 5 years ago, or if they have been changed


I have to say that the manufacturer appears to be very unsophisticated, their correspondence is far from professional, as was their telephone manner. This may be endemic to the industry as one of the competitors web site has a product page with a large clear bright image stating 10 Year Warranty, then within the product description (smaller print) it lists '5 Year manufacturers warranty'. Not sure what trading standards would make of that.


Thanks again



Link to post
Share on other sites

Who is the manufacturer and what is the address of the website?

Link to post
Share on other sites

The link goes to a page which talks about a 10 year guarantee which is subject to terms and conditions. The only terms and conditions I can find referred to a stainless steel cylinder and I gathered that the one you are referring to is copper. Is that correct? If so, are you able to find the terms and conditions relating to copper cylinders

Link to post
Share on other sites

A couple more questions – is the original plumber who fitted it on-side or is he unsupportive and even defensive about this?

Secondly, what kind of value are we talking about here – for the cost of a new cylinder and the cost of replacing the corroded one

Link to post
Share on other sites


T&Cs are located at https://www.telford-group.com/terms-and-conditions/  - they seem to be rather disorganised, the stainless steel cylinder appears in the t&c and may have been parachuted in to a pre-existing set of terms. Consequently  its not easy to differentiate which paragraphs are relevant. to a copper cylinder. I believe the manufacturer is hiding behind the following.


5.4 e (exclusion) states 'the defect arises as a result of fair wear and tear, (including, but not limited to, corrosion or scale damage) wilful damage, negligence, or abnormal storage or abnormal working conditions;'


The original plumber was helpful to assist (by phone) with the failure, but as he is retired he is likely to prefer a quiet life


The cost of the cylinder itself is in the order of £200, the total cost of replacement was in the order of £600, but the warranty claim is limited to the cost of the cylinder 


A picture of the label on the cylinder is attached - orange label simply states 10 Year Warranty - - the dark black and gold  product label says the the cylinder is guaranteed for 2 years - at best it is unprofessional.




Link to post
Share on other sites

Okay. The plumber can have a quiet life but you need something from him to describe the installation, and also that the expected life of a copper cylinder would exceed XX years even in the case of corrosion and that corrosion at only five years could not be described as "normal wear and tear" and is likely to be caused by some inherent defect.

The fact that the terms and conditions of the warranty are not clear will help you because at the end of the day I think you are in a position simply to say that you understood it was guaranteed and that no terms and conditions were set. That it was absolutely reasonable to expect that if there was a defect in the item then the reparation would include not only the replacement of the cylinder but also all associated costs.

I think I've already suggested that you get a couple of written opinions about the expected lifespan of a copper cylinder – even if they can't give you a lifespan, they can certainly comment on corrosion occurring within five years.

You are doing all of this for your neighbour. If this runs to a legal action – as it probably will – then your neighbour is going to have to do this. Does your neighbour understand this?

The chances of you succeeding in court are extremely high. The chance of this actually going to court are much lower because it is much more likely that they will put their hands up. I would suggest that you might be best off suing the manufacturer and the plumber's merchant together as first defendant and second defendant.

If they are sensible, they will pull together on the cost. I'm assuming that a new cylinder has now been fitted – is this correct? Presumably you have the invoices for the purchase and installation of the new cylinder. Presumably the new cylinder which has been fitted is the same or equivalent to the one which corroded so that there is no particular difference in the cost.

Link to post
Share on other sites

We should be able to obtain opinion regarding expected life from the original plumber as he is no longer active in the trade, so no issue with future relations with the merchant..


I will talk to my neighbor and explain what he  needs to do, clearly it will be up to him to proceed with the claim via the suggested route


Thank you for your help.







Link to post
Share on other sites

Point out that the small claims process is very simple and straightforward. If there is a hearing then it is very likely to be a telephone hearing and as long as one knows the steps then there is no reason to be unconfident about it.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 Caggers

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • Have we helped you ...?

  • Create New...