PackLink & Hermes- County Court claim

[whistlebear 2]

I have started a Tribunal process against both PackLink and Hermes,

my parcel that I sold through Ebay (bidding) was collected at the collection point,

at which it was then deemed lost after this as shown by tracking (Tracking's last update was that it was collected)

 

I have made attempts to contact both Hermes and PackLink,

Hermes as most people know are useless to contact due to their automated service,

 

PackLink acknowledge the parcel was lost but only offered (and sent even after I rejected in writing to this amount) £25 for a item that sold for just under £1500.

 

I now know not to use either one for delivery, however I have gone ahead and started a claim for the sold amount.

 

I have read through the following threads for some information and help:

https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/422236-packlinkhermes-lost-ebay-parcel/
https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/419960-interesting-packlink-hermes-ebay-claim-where-does-the-liability-lie-won/

 

However going through these threads does not give me confidence that they will just pay me without a fight.

I was wondering what I should do for my next steps.

 

The case/claim is against both companies.

 

Currently I am awaiting their responses for the initial stage of the claim.

 

The item that was 'lost' was a Laptop.

 

I have email proof of PackLink rejecting my full claim with the amount that it sold for,

and have been refunded £25 (without agreeing to this) as per 'their' obligation, and the shipping cost (£7.08),

 

I submitted the case before they refunded the £25, so technically they owe me slightly less than what I originally claimed for.

I also have video proof of me packing the parcel (including the item info/specs, serial number, and the buyers shipping address)

and I am able to get video footage of the person collecting this parcel (let me know if this is needed)
 

[slick132 5,556]

Hi WB and welcome to CAG

 

No surprise to read the "lost" item is a laptop and Site Team member @BankFodder will no doubt look in and comment.

[BankFodder 1,905]

Please can you set out the events which occurred in a bullet pointed chronology. Not too much narrative please.

You say that you have already started a claim. Please could you post up the claim form.

You say that you have named pack link as a defendant. How did you do that? I rather believe that they are based in Spain so did you find a UK address for them?

 

[whistlebear 2]

• I sold an item on ebay through their bidding system, ebay recommended I use PackLink as a delivery service so I did.
• I dropped the item at a local shop and video tapped the item being taped in the parcel with the label stuck on.
• The parcel was scanned and approved awaiting to be collected by somebody from Hermes
• The person collected this parcel later that same day (both events are recorded on hermes tracking website) and the tracking did not update past that point.
• I contacted Ebay, PackLink and made attempts to contact Hermes the following day to trace the parcel, and it took PackLink 6 working days to establish that the parcel was 'lost'. Hermes contact was appalling as it is automated (live chat and phone) and when I could get through, their automated system stated that due to the label being from PackLink, all issues are with them.
• Once the parcel was lost, I was told to write up a claim form, for PackLink which I did so. They initially offered me £25 + label cost, which I told them I reject through email. They then refunded me both amounts despite me rejecting this.

 

It took 6 working days for them to admit a problem and to send me that amount despite my rejection.

 

I found this companies house number for PackLink: 09026541

 

That claim form you have linked me is for people who have a claim against them, is this the right link (it asks me questions such as if I received notice from the creditor, why I ceased payments etc)

 

Thank you for the assistance.

 

I have just checked today and it says:

 

HERMES PARCELNET LIMITED filed an acknowledgment of service on 19/10/2020

 

The claim was submitted by me on the 12th.

 

Am I able to PM you privately with my claim form?

 

Edited October 19 by whistlebear

[BankFodder 1,905]

Thanks for this very clear explanation.

You don't tell us what the item was and also you don't tell us what the value was. Please can you do this.
Also, you haven't told us the basis upon which they have rejected your claim for the full value

It's no problem about posting the claim form here. We have nothing to hide and nor do you but if you want to redact it for your personal ID details then you should do so. However, will be helpful to have a copy of the claim form posted in PDF format.

Well done on finding a bridge address for Packlink – I had looked but I wasn't aware of it. However, I see that they are to be struck off…
 

Quote

 

And I also see that the owner of the company is a French citizen apparently domiciled in Spain – out of the jurisdiction.

 

Quote

I can imagine that they don't have any assets UK.

However, it will be very interesting to see what happens. Presumably the acknowledgement of service only comes from Hermes and you have heard nothing from Packlink. Of course if they don't acknowledge service or follow defence then you could apply for a judgement against them. This may be difficult because I can imagine that MoneyClaim isn't set up to deal with that kind of unusual occurrence.
It will help enormously if you can post the claim form please. Also maybe you can post up the acknowledgement.

[whistlebear 2]

1 hour ago, BankFodder said:

Thanks for this very clear explanation.

You don't tell us what the item was and also you don't tell us what the value was. Please can you do this.
Also, you haven't told us the basis upon which they have rejected your claim for the full value

It's no problem about posting the claim form here. We have nothing to hide and nor do you but if you want to redact it for your personal ID details then you should do so. However, will be helpful to have a copy of the claim form posted in PDF format.

Well done on finding a bridge address for Packlink – I had looked but I wasn't aware of it. However, I see that they are to be struck off…
 

 

And I also see that the owner of the company is a French citizen apparently domiciled in Spain – out of the jurisdiction.

 

I can imagine that they don't have any assets UK.

However, it will be very interesting to see what happens. Presumably the acknowledgement of service only comes from Hermes and you have heard nothing from Packlink. Of course if they don't acknowledge service or follow defence then you could apply for a judgement against them. This may be difficult because I can imagine that MoneyClaim isn't set up to deal with that kind of unusual occurrence.
It will help enormously if you can post the claim form please. Also maybe you can post up the acknowledgement.

 

Here is my claim:

 

Particulars of Claim
I posted the Item at a collection point which
I was provided the following tracking number:
REDACTED

The tracking did not update past the point it
was collected from this shop, and I had
flagged this up from the 6th. PackLink have
offered compensation amounting to £25 which I
have refused. They do agree that the parcel
is indeed lost, but are not willing to payout
the value of which the item sold for.
PackLink have refunded me the cost of the
label which amounted to £7.08

There is a packlink reference number for this
case, which is: REDACTED

In essence, PackLink admit they are at fault,
but are not willing to compensate me for the
full value of the item at its sold price.
I will provide the defendant with separate
detailed particulars within 14 days after
service of the claim form.
 
Details of claim
Amount claimed£1,490.00
Court fee£70.00
Total amount£1,560.00

[whistlebear 2]

and here is the Hermes response:

 

Intention

I intend to defend all of this claim

 

Signed

I am the Defendant

REDACTED

Hermes Legal Department
19/10/2020

[BankFodder 1,905]

Sorry, but we need to see the entire claim form in PDF. Scanned. I'm particularly interested to see the description of the parties.

Also, I notice that you said that you would provide further details of your claim. This was unnecessary – and probably you shouldn't have done it. Have you sent them something now?

[whistlebear 2]

I haven't sent them anything, is there a way to retract this? (in relation to me adding more info)

 

I am also unable to upload the PDF as I do not have a way to redact any personal information, however the defendants are as follows:

 

Edited October 20 by whistlebear

[whistlebear 2]

2 hours ago, BankFodder said:

Thanks for this very clear explanation.

You don't tell us what the item was and also you don't tell us what the value was. Please can you do this.
Also, you haven't told us the basis upon which they have rejected your claim for the full value

It's no problem about posting the claim form here. We have nothing to hide and nor do you but if you want to redact it for your personal ID details then you should do so. However, will be helpful to have a copy of the claim form posted in PDF format.

Well done on finding a bridge address for Packlink – I had looked but I wasn't aware of it. However, I see that they are to be struck off…
 

 

And I also see that the owner of the company is a French citizen apparently domiciled in Spain – out of the jurisdiction.

 

I can imagine that they don't have any assets UK.

However, it will be very interesting to see what happens. Presumably the acknowledgement of service only comes from Hermes and you have heard nothing from Packlink. Of course if they don't acknowledge service or follow defence then you could apply for a judgement against them. This may be difficult because I can imagine that MoneyClaim isn't set up to deal with that kind of unusual occurrence.
It will help enormously if you can post the claim form please. Also maybe you can post up the acknowledgement.

This was why I was rejected the full amount, the message and compensation were from PackLink:

 

Edited October 20 by whistlebear

[BankFodder 1,905]

When does the 14 day deadline submission of an AOS or a defence expire? Will the system allow you to go in and apply for judgement against your first defendant?

You still haven't told us what it was you were sending. Is there a reason for that? Were you sending something so intimate that you'd rather not let anybody know?

I think it would be huge fun if you are able to obtain a judgement against Packlink because that would put you in an extremely powerful position in respect of claiming your third party rights in respect of Hermes.
Also, the message from Packlink interesting because it shows that all of the couriers are operating the same system and that even if you had opted for a different courier service – DHL, the so-called compensation cover would not have been sufficient to address your losses.

If it does go to mediation then this will be an important point to make. I don't know if you have seen the other thread on this sub- forum deals with a lost bottle of perfume. Find it and have a look at it – and have a look at the account of the mediation process that that cagger went through and also the suggestions I made afterwards about arguments that should be used to judge. These arguments can also be used in the mediation

However, once again, I really have difficulty believing that this will go even as far as mediation for this kind of very small claim
 

[BankFodder 1,905]

I'm just reading through your last post again. Are you telling us that the message you have posted above was there acknowledgement?

Have they not posted a proper acknowledgement of service through the MoneyClaim system?

Have you checked with MoneyClaim to see if you are allowed to apply for judgement yet?

[whistlebear 2]

18 minutes ago, BankFodder said:

When does the 14 day deadline submission of an AOS or a defence expire? Will the system allow you to go in and apply for judgement against your first defendant?

You still haven't told us what it was you were sending. Is there a reason for that? Were you sending something so intimate that you'd rather not let anybody know?

I think it would be huge fun if you are able to obtain a judgement against Packlink because that would put you in an extremely powerful position in respect of claiming your third party rights in respect of Hermes.
Also, the message from Packlink interesting because it shows that all of the couriers are operating the same system and that even if you had opted for a different courier service – DHL, the so-called compensation cover would not have been sufficient to address your losses.

If it does go to mediation then this will be an important point to make. I don't know if you have seen the other thread on this sub- forum deals with a lost bottle of perfume. Find it and have a look at it – and have a look at the account of the mediation process that that cagger went through and also the suggestions I made afterwards about arguments that should be used to judge. These arguments can also be used in the mediation

However, once again, I really have difficulty believing that this will go even as far as mediation for this kind of very small claim
 

Sorry I thought I mentioned the item previously, it was for a Brand new Laptop/Macbook Pro, this was sold on Ebay for £1490 + £7.08 shipping.

 

I currently have the option to request a Judgement:

In addition, where am I able to find the answer to "When does the 14 day deadline submission of an AOS or a defence expire?" is this from when I initiated the claim?

[whistlebear 2]

25 minutes ago, BankFodder said:

I'm just reading through your last post again. Are you telling us that the message you have posted above was there acknowledgement?

Have they not posted a proper acknowledgement of service through the MoneyClaim system?

Have you checked with MoneyClaim to see if you are allowed to apply for judgement yet?

This is their (PackLink) acknowledgement, PackLink have not responded to the MCOL case, only Hermes, which was simply their acknowledgement to defend the case. The PackLink rejection was received via email prior to me launching the case, as I tried to resolve the matter before escalation.

 

Edited October 20 by whistlebear

[BankFodder 1,905]

Okay, first of all if you have the option to request judgement – then you should go ahead and do it and not waste time. Do it now!

[BankFodder 1,905]

Secondly, I think that I been confusing your case with somebody else. I thought that this was a case for a claim of £70. That's why I referred to it as a "very small claim".

I do go back and refer to the post that I made. However, for this kind of value can be certain that they will probably want to go to the distance and to take you to court – despite the colossal risks to them if they lose on the issue of insurance.

It is most important to get the judgement against Hermes because as you have seen, Packlink is trying to go into liquidation in UK and they are based in Spain and so enforcement will be pretty well impossible. Get the judgement anyway – but it is the judgement against Hermes that you want.

However if you get the judgement against Packlink, then I think it may be difficult for Hermes to escape liability on the basis that you have rights as a contracting third party

 

[whistlebear 2]

2 minutes ago, BankFodder said:

Okay, first of all if you have the option to request judgement – then you should go ahead and do it and not waste time. Do it now!

I appreciate the swift responses, I will keep this thread updated once I receive a reply.

[BankFodder 1,905]

The 14 day deadline runs from the date of deemed service. In respect of suing a business, this means that they are deemed to have been served with the papers two days after they were issued. So if you say on day three after the date that you clicked the claim off then that probably is your 14 day trigger

[BankFodder 1,905]

In fact I now see that this is the first time that you have disclosed the value of the item although I can see now that you did tell us it was a laptop in your first post.

I suppose I should have guessed that it was high-value – but I'm afraid that it passed me by. But it certainly makes a difference and you need to be forthcoming with all information – even if we don't ask for it – but especially if we ask for it

 

[whistlebear 2]

1 minute ago, BankFodder said:

In fact I now see that this is the first time that you have disclose the value of the item and also the nature of the item.

I hope you can see how difficult it makes it if you don't give us all the information we need – either at the outset – or at least when we ask for it the first time. The answer to these questions can change the kind of advice we give completely. It just creates more work for everybody to have to keep and chase you for really quite basic information. Sorry if you think that this is a slapped wrist. I suppose it is – but you are heading into some litigation where it is unlikely that even mediation will solve the problem.
This means that you have to engage with this thread properly even though you are getting this advice for free, you should treat it as if you are paying £300 per hour because what we are saying to you is just a serious and just as valuable. The money you are claiming for yours to win – or to lose.
We would like it to be as easy as possible for both of us

 

I understand, this was an error on my part and I'll ensure that all the information is apparent.

[BankFodder 1,905]

It's partly my fault. I had missed the fact that you had actually said it was a laptop at the outset. Sorry. I actually corrected the post which you have now quoted.

However, this high value is going to make a big difference.

Have you applied for the judgement yet?

[whistlebear 2]

I am going through it as we speak, I have a few questions on exactly what to fill out.

 

So from here, Would I fill out:

 

The defendent has not filed an admission or defence to my claim

 

Joint Judgement

 

Since PackLink did admit it was lost but they did not admit they owe me the full amount

[BankFodder 1,905]

So you fill in" that the defendant has not filed an admission or defence".

In the second part, you simply click off defendant number one.

That should be it

 

Let us know once you have applied for the judgement. Of course it will take a short while to process it – maybe about a week. You will have to keep on looking at the MoneyClaim site to see if the judgement has been granted. Don't forget that if they happen to put in a defence before the judgement has been granted, then your application will be refused and the defence will be allowed to continue

[BankFodder 1,905]

By the way, have we checked that you did declare that it was a laptop and that you declared the correct value?

Did you apply for the judgement yet?

[whistlebear 2]

12 hours ago, BankFodder said:

By the way, have we checked that you did declare that it was a laptop and that you declared the correct value?

Did you apply for the judgement yet?

I did state the value of the item but not stating it was a laptop.

 

The Judgement needs to pass the 14 day mark in order for me to submit, as it currently does not allow me. So I am waiting for this period to end.