Just Cash Flow PLC business bank personal guarantee Court Claim.

[AndyOrch]

10 hours ago, MOSS 41 said:

waiting for decision is worse than waiting for the hearing ...if we dont get the result we want (hopefully we will)

 

 

does paying the debt i.e (only claimed amount) stop ccj being registered? Yes if paid by the required time

 

do the costs count in the order-? i mean to stop a ccj do you have to pay amount and costs all together-or are they treated seperately

Usually all added together within the Notice of Judgment...but can sometimes be a  separate costs order..

 

im obviously going to dispute the costs, so would rather pay correct amount claimed and argue costs later 

 

otherwise if you have to pay 'everything' then im better applying for a payment plan (of not a lot as currently unemployed so about £10 a month)-and just letting my credit report get trashed instead of handing over savings im living on until i can work again

 

That's the prudent thing to do why give them their cash fast if your not bothered about your credit files....Ive no doubt they will also secure the judgment on your property anyway ( if mortgaged) ...so whether you pay them £10 or £1 or even zilch...their judgment is secure.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[MOSS 41]

Does interest still accrue on a ccj, like if I can’t pay anything , a charging order amount would just grow and grow 

 

having three children one severely disabled that the house had been adapted for by council , I don’t think I would ever be forced to sell 

 

 

I don’t see how an order for costs can be made yet, no behaviours have been discussed , no settlement subject to cost letters discussed etc 

 

judge just wanted to go home and admitted he had read any of the files or skeleton argument , as it was dumped on him two minutes before trial , he wasn’t supposed to be judge hearing it 

[MOSS 41]

Sorry he hadn’t read Any of the file at all 
 

I still am raging, that their barrister called me a liar in his closing st , I have no chance to respond, I think it’s name calling and unprofessional , 

 

Just because I wouldn’t say what he wanted and change the answers in my st

 

 

their witness on the other hand , had to introduce himself - and immediately declare his WS was incorrect, his declared dates wrong ( he said something was accepted on a date before it was physically sent )In that same st , 

he had to admit he lied in it - judge was not impressed , 

[AndyOrch]

Quote

Does interest still accrue on a ccj, like if I can’t pay anything , a charging order amount would just grow and grow 

No unless the agreement T&Cs allow it.....look at the particulars of claim under interest claimed it is normally up until date of judgment.

 

having three children one severely disabled that the house had been adapted for by council , I don’t think I would ever be forced to sell 

 

Should you lose the claim...then you would submit an N245 to agree monthly payment...providing you maintain the payments and dont default then they cant go for an Order of Sale....and even if they tried it would be very unlikely in view of your child's disabilities.

 

 

 

. 

[MOSS 41]

see if there is no interest on the CCJ

 

in effect if they got a charging order and i paid say £10 a month,

its basically turned into interest free secured lending, which i could never get on the high street

the debt would never increase , if i ever sold my house they would get the balance which had never risen over time

 

im not selling my adapted house - so pretty much unless they are still in business in many years to come, they get practically nothing back even after all this.

 

plus they report last three years on companies house they are in doubt to be a going concern, by auditors and that was before the pandemic.

 

 

i assume as its over 5k , they cant get warrants for bailffs either, cars on HP, no working, no money in account

 

i suppose they could try to make as bankrupt, but they will get only 20% back thas according to our IP, which would be years away and fightable i suppose

 

 

 

 

 

[AndyOrch]

As its over 5K they could use Court Bailiffs to issue a Warrant of Control...along with a Charging Order....or even a Third Party Debt Order.

So its vital depending on the judgment that you submit a Notice of Variation N245 to get the court to rubber stamp your monthly payments.

[MOSS 41]

i buy second hand furniture and have a £300 tv  everything in my house (every single item completely removed )

wouldnt raise 3k at auction.

would be a waste to instruct bailiffs, they couldnt take everything, either because of my daughter.

 

we dont own expensive things, we buy our clothes at asda.

third party debt order, is to restrict your bank account ?? its empty (overdrawn)

 

does N245 stop all enforcement?

[AndyOrch]

Quote

does N245 stop all enforcement?

 

Yes....because its agreed between the court the claimant and yourself...a set monthly affordable payment.

[MOSS 41]

they wont agree it though ??

 

can you fight a charging order?, as on the form they have to list other creditors,

they wont declare our other creditors, even though weve given them a list, and it would be unfair on all the other creditors?

[AndyOrch]

They have to have grounds to disagree....its based on your Financial I & E..if all you can afford is £10pm...that's what they get if the court orders it.

 

You can fight a CO application...but as its a joint mortgage and debt...it would be very difficult..not impossible...but why bother ? 

[MOSS 41]

No need to bother , really , just as I read it , it was unfair on the other creditors - 

 

what grounds can they disagree on income and expenditure , we have tax credits and DLA for my daughter , but obviously have some equity in our house 

this may not all happen yet , I just always prepare for the worst with a plan and hope not to need it - 

 

I was exhausted after the hearing Friday, I was cross examined for 1.5 hours - no one stepped in , no one halted it for a break 

I lost my temper at one point as their barrister Kept smirking and smiling , making little notes  , while declaring that’s helpful etc 

 

he was so aggressive - I have to basically say , In the end 

‘what gives you the right to say this signature is personal - it’s clearly qualified as signed by a a director for and on behalf of a Ltd company ‘ 

 

and if I had signed personally, I could Not ask the court to interpret it differently , I would be ok the hook 

so why do they get that right, to get it interpreted a different way !’ 
 

at the end of the day the debenture and DOGI

if they were in the execution clauses , why are they not done 

 

 

me and my husband , only panic, because they said so much, so much attack, quoted so much Case law (largely irrelevant as wasn’t allowed to change their particulars during trial to an oral element of agreement) 

 

yet our barrister , was calm ,

collected and said very little -

he said the law is the law , you didn’t sign , they proved how they expect dual signatures On other documentation , in direct contrast to the loan agreement - there is nothing to argue about 

 

 

 

 

[AndyOrch]

Quote

I was exhausted after the hearing Friday, I was cross examined for 1.5 hours - no one stepped in , no one halted it for a break 

I lost my temper at one point as their barrister Kept smirking and smiling , making little notes  , while declaring that’s helpful etc 

 

Quote

yet our barrister , was calm ,

collected and said very little -

 

I would take that up with him  when he gives you his bill 

[MOSS 41]

too late, you have to pay in advance , you dont know how good they will be until they are in a court room.

 

 

i dont know if our barrister was more calculating and correct, so took the correct approach, or it was a minimum effort job

-he says the opposition was in dangerous territory as their barrister kept telling the judge how to decide, do his job etc, which is a big no-no

(i feel he could have said more, put case law forward proving why directors signatures are different, he did point out their case law couldnt apply, and he was right in every aspect discussed)

 

or their side shouting stamping and name calling, all because their case is weak, you can talk as much as you want but if you have no legislation on your side, your words are worthless, and shouting louder doesnt make your case stronger.

[AndyOrch]

Quote

too late, you have to pay in advance , you dont know how good they will be until they are in a court room.

 

 

 

Strange...how did he know how long the hearing would be ? The hours he would charge ? Normally you pay your Solicitor to pay the Barrister as a Barrister offer no protection of clients monies 

 

Quote

"Client money" is money held by a lawyer on behalf of a client. Solicitors' firms have client accounts where clients can pay in money in a way similar to a bank account, and that money is held for them by the firm. Solicitors' firms have protections in place to ensure that this money is not misused. They also have a compensation fund that will pay for any money a client loses.

Barristers do not have the same protections in place and are not allowed to hold money in this way.

 

https://www.barstandardsboard.org.uk/for-the-public/finding-and-using-a-barrister/barristers-fees.html

[MOSS 41]

direct access- fixed fee for hearing and preperation for one day hearing dictated by case managment

payable in advance 

[MOSS 41]

Unfortunately as I suspected , the barrister really made no effort -

he made an easy bit of money - 2 page skeleton , no citations and hardly no speech through whole trial - and hasn’t answered a message since - while we wait for judgement 

 

just got judgement -(reserved you be passed down in 14 days unless handing down hearing required by teams ) 

 

we lost - on the plus side it’s for the original loan amount 25k not the thousands higher amount they claim - so that’s potentially payable 

 

it make no mention of costs or interest though ? At all 

 

so what happens now - has he not awarded costs or interest ? 
(thought would be great- but can’t be that straightforward ) 

 

it says - parties to agree order or teams hearing to hand down judgment ??

 

[AndyOrch]

Sounds like costs to follow or agreed ?

 

https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/civil/rules/part40/pd_part40e

[MOSS 41]

Barrister not responding to me - I sent all paperwork - about offers fo ADR , all the breaches of pre action sent recorded delivery to claimants throughout etc - 

save as to costs settlements offers 

 

I don’t know whether to email court direct and say I don’t agree costs here’s all my points of dispute for his consideration and ask permission to appeal and see what happens at hand down ? 

[AndyOrch]

Have you received your Notice of Judgment ?

[MOSS 41]

No- last Tuesday received written decision that had been reserved on the day due to time 

 

it said it planned to officially hand down two weeks later , the parties had two weeks to agree to consequential orders , 

 

we obviously don’t agree 

amount yes , interest yes 

but cost schedule ridiculous and no , ac have all ADR request letters etc too - refused etc , I want judge to see 

 

 

[MOSS 41]

barrister still being slow to respond or advise me on anything, 

i don't agree their excessive costs etc,

 

so do i just say don't agree and ask for hearing or to be dealt with in paper?

have all evidence 

preaction breaches

6 save as to cost settlement offers etc 

theyve even stated, they will not let unilateral notices get removed off my properties , even after its paid

as they have indemnity contractual right to get all costs paid no matter what court says before the remove charges.

 

1) they havent made a claim for any indemnity, just a personal guarantee

judges hasnt awarded one- surely if i tell land registry here's the judgement- here's it paid, they can no longer stop me removing/objecting to these unilateral notices, otherwise what am i doing it all for?

 

these people are evil, trying to say pay costs in full ' as you turned down an 18 month payment offer'

well guess what it was way worse  than the judge awarded flat 25k plus 8% of 1600

 

they wanted 18% interest 40K full imdemnity of 18 months- "!!! to drop court case

 

 

second point- judgement not yet handed down and now its been proven they have altered a document deliberately and solicitor lied in witness statement - i have typed something to send to court with permission to appeal

 

permission to appeal reasons 

 on application of statute as they demonstrated a dual capacity signature in evidence and the hearing, but didnt use, so court re wrote personal element  back in via intention- not fair they didnt ask for a personal signature on the doc

this is against clear words and drafting of experienced business men

 

he did this as he said this one document proved intention- said document now proved to be altered and falsified 

can i submit this evidence to the court before handing down- its now a false witness statement which affects the administration of justice.

 

will it hurt me if i do ? or have i got nothing to lose ?

 

 

 

[MOSS 41]

Been a while - to get to costs hearing -
 

still not sorted today - judge said pre action breaches  important and refusal to adr in assessing costs 

 

their barrister acts all surprised , saying it’s not fair , don’t know anything about this etc what breaches ,

what adr 

 

point out it’s all in witness statements -

this isn’t new Information 

 

he asked for adjournment to get answers form his clients -

 

 

it’s ridiculous costs decided at end of hearing -

you don’t get to plan your arguments for another day etc 

 

what concerns me is something be said 

 

‘everyone’s agreed on 25k’ for judgement of debt and 

£1600

of interest 

then says to judge , That’s each for the order !

 

what does that mean ? 
it’s a 25k claim -

we pay it -

we don’t pay them 50k ie 25 each ?

we just pay 25 k and prove it’s paid against the claim of g42yjxxxx

 

yes ? 

 

 

[AndyOrch]

Correct.. you can only pay what is demanded on the claim form /Notice of Judgment.

[MOSS 41]

So I send bank statement as proof for satisfaction of ccj within the 30 days - to the court 

 

for each of us or just once

anda pay the £15 fee 

 

I know the claimant won’t tell 

court it’s paid 

[AndyOrch]

If your paying it in full before the 30 days you can request a Notice of Satisfaction.

 

Form N443: Apply for a certificate to show you've paid a court order - GOV.UK

WWW.GOV.UK

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Use Form N443 to tell the court that you've paid the full amount of an order, and apply for a 'certificate of satisfaction' or 'certificate of cancellation'.