Just Cash Flow PLC business bank personal guarantee Court Claim.

[AndyOrch]

Gets more confusing with every post you make.....can you confirm this claim was issued through MCOL Northampton or CCMCC ?

 

After you submitted your DQs in August you stated " no confirmation of allocation, case management anything - it will be months and months"

So you never received a Notice of Allocation N154...what made you assume it will be months and months ? ...should be two weeks tops.

 

On 1st October you received a General Order re Application...

 

 

IT IS ORDERED THAT

The claim be transferred to the county court at xxxxxxx(my local court) for the application to be listed for hearing (on notice) and served

 

You also stated " then received 10 days later a notice of transfer of proceeding -to all parties

As a result of an order made on the xx of sept this claim has been transferred to the county court of xxxxx (my local court)"

 

Now you start to chase a copy of the N244 and statement and you contact CCMCC ..

" No- I asked ccmcc, that said as it’s been transferred you have to wait for them to send you an application we didn’t have to copy you in,"

 

Which County Court has CCMCC transferred the claim to ? and has a hearing date been set ?

 

And am I to assume that the claim was issued through CCMCC and Not Northampton MCOL ?

 

Given that you have never received The Notice of Allocation N154 then obviously the claim has not been allocated or transferred ...if it had which is the normal process once both parties have submitted their DQs...the the above General Order would not need to transfer it out of CCMCC.

 

Now back to your last post ...to make application to amend your defence involves making an application with Fee £100 and with the claimants consent which you will be liable for all their costs in submitting  further responses.....not that they would agree to it anyway so forget that.

 

A properly drafted response statement of objection with reasons will suffice in defending this application...your initial defence will be discarded and possibly never even looked at by the judge.SO its important to get that correct..

 

But of course you cant draft it until you get copies of said N244 and witness statement.

 

Oh and for the record .....

 

Notice of an application

23.4

(1) The general rule is that a copy of the application notice must be served on each respondent.

(2) An application may be made without serving a copy of the application notice if this is permitted by –

(a) a rule;

(b) a practice direction; or

(c) a court order.

(Rule 23.7 deals with service of a copy of the application notice)

Service of a copy of an application notice

23.7

(1) A copy of the application notice –

(a) must be served as soon as practicable after it is filed; and

(b) except where another time limit is specified in these Rules or a practice direction, must in any event be served at least 3 days before the court is to deal with the application.

(2) If a copy of the application notice is to be served by the court, the applicant must, when he files the application notice, file a copy of any written evidence in support.

(3) When a copy of an application notice is served it must be accompanied by –

(a) a copy of any written evidence in support; and

(b) a copy of any draft order which the applicant has attached to his application.

(4) If –

(a) an application notice is served; but

(b) the period of notice is shorter than the period required by these Rules or a practice direction,

the court may direct that, in the circumstances of the case, sufficient notice has been given and hear the application.

(5) This rule does not require written evidence –

(a) to be filed if it has already been filed; or

(b) to be served on a party on whom it has already been served.

https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/civil/rules/part23

 

 

 

 

[MOSS 41]

 

yes that is correct- for actual full claim, first raised CCMCC

AOS done

defence (bad defence ) done

Letters saying this now a defended claim

DQ done 

not yet allocated to my local court or copy of N154 confirming it is and case file will be sent over etc

 

this  strike out application was made to CCMCC, i wasnt served it-judge ordered it to be heard at my local court

 an N154 notice of allocation for this claim (the application) which is independent to the initial claim

to be heard at my local court, soo currently only have an N154 for the transfer of an application hearing

not the case as a whole

 

the way its been described to me. is that these are to completely separate processes, and the initial claim is paused while 

the application is dealt with

 

hope that makes sense, i dont mean to be confusing

hopefully get served something soon so i can post it here

 

barrister suggested sending letter to claimant asking for consent to change defence anyways, then if no response or denial, i can present this letter at the hearing and costs against me could be reduced, or removed- or is this a waste of time?

 

Just to note - this claimant is claiming over two companies both discussed on this thread

company 1- liquidated called in personal guarantee £30,000, missing paperwork, signed copies etc SAR done, easier to defend:

aos done

defence done (a full one)

DQ done

case file sent to my local court

court date march 2021 (just got it)(but they have made noises about settlement, obv because they are missing paperwork)

 

and the claim we are currently discussing is :

 

company 2 (our day job still in existence)- put in claim for £15,000 on personal guarantee as company went on payment plan, they initially agreed and then wanted all the money now -court completely avoidable, company debt not in dispute, happy  to do payment plan by the company. These people are hard to reason with.

paperwork in order, but i do have good defences, and have no choice to fight as backed in a corner

AOS done

defence (bad) done

DQ done

case file not yet allocated to my local court- but an application to strike out defence has been made

[AndyOrch]

8 hours ago, MOSS 41 said:

 

yes that is correct- for actual full claim, first raised CCMCC

AOS done

defence (bad defence ) done

Letters saying this now a defended claim

DQ done 

not yet allocated to my local court or copy of N154 confirming it is and case file will be sent over etc

 

You state below you have received the N154....that is for the main claim...not their application.I think we have asked you 5 times if you have received it you have not confirmed.

 

Quote

 

this  strike out application was made to CCMCC, i wasnt served it-judge ordered it to be heard at my local court

 an N154 notice of allocation for this claim (the application) which is independent to the initial claim

to be heard at my local court, soo currently only have an N154 for the transfer of an application hearing

not the case as a whole

 

The N154 is for the main claim ...not the application SJ

 

Quote

 

the way its been described to me. is that these are to completely separate processes, and the initial claim is paused while 

the application is dealt with

 

hope that makes sense, i dont mean to be confusing

hopefully get served something soon so i can post it here

 

Yes I know that ... I deal with 100s of SJ applications on here regularly 

 

Quote

 

barrister suggested sending letter to claimant asking for consent to change defence anyways, then if no response or denial, i can present this letter at the hearing and costs against me could be reduced, or removed- or is this a waste of time?

 

Not advised waste of time  letters do  not achieve anything in litigation

 

 

Quote

 

Just to note - this claimant is claiming over two companies both discussed on this thread

company 1- liquidated called in personal guarantee £30,000, missing paperwork, signed copies etc SAR done, easier to defend:

aos done

defence done (a full one)

DQ done

case file sent to my local court

court date march 2021 (just got it)(but they have made noises about settlement, obv because they are missing paperwork)

 

and the claim we are currently discussing is :

 

company 2 (our day job still in existence)- put in claim for £15,000 on personal guarantee as company went on payment plan, they initially agreed and then wanted all the money now -court completely avoidable, company debt not in dispute, happy  to do payment plan by the company. These people are hard to reason with.

paperwork in order, but i do have good defences, and have no choice to fight as backed in a corner

AOS done

defence (bad) done

DQ done

 

Quote

case file not yet allocated to my local court- but an application to strike out defence has been made

Yes we are aware ...we have been discussing it since last week..I told you what it was for before you rang the court and inquired 

[AndyOrch]

This could be a lot simpler if you actually scanned redacted and upload the claim...the court documents (then we can explain to you what each document is for )instead of reading between the lines of what you assume and what your barrister is ill advising.

 

[MOSS 41]

Ok- Thankyou , I shall do over the weekend 

 

 

I do value everyone’s input enormously 

 

hopefully this works

 

company 2 court papers redacted.pdf

[AndyOrch]

Great that makes life a lot easier....it was like playing Chinese whispers.

 

Have you a copy of the claimants DQ  ? They should have served a copy on you.

[MOSS 41]

hi- they did, and its there plain as day they will make an application, i think i missed it as the court claim reference is incorrect, they have put the claim number of the company 1 claim on it, but it was definitely served for this company 2 claim as you can see by the covering letter responding to the order made  as included in the previous upload

 

i looked at the DQ form the claimant in company 1 (referenced correctly) and no applications are made- further confirming they are missing the signed agreements otherwise they would have applied for summary judgement on that DQ too.

 

Does that mean it wont be allocated until this is dealt with? as they included the application in the DQ, if they included this application with the DQ, should a copy of it been served on me with the DQ?

 

does this mean its not a strike out of defence application at all, and they actually just want to jump the court queue and have a trial at the hearing? or is it them arguing why they should get a summary judgement and me arguing why it must be allowed to go for a full trial

 

 

DQ company 2 claimant.pdf

Edited October 9, 2020 by MOSS 41

[MOSS 41]

Would anyone be willing to take a look at the contract and my chronology / defence 

(obv I would have to email the defence as wouldn’t want to post on public forum) 

 

so we could see how I tackle getting the summary judgment denied and full trial allowed ?

 

now we know it’s not a strike out Of defence application should I do amended defence and pay the fee or is it still not necessary 

Edited October 9, 2020 by MOSS 41

[dx100uk]

you redact it as with everything else 

 

[AndyOrch]

Quote

they have put the claim number of the company 1 claim on it, but it was definitely served for this company 2 claim

 

How many claims are there ?  or is it one claim two defendants.....totally lost now....again it would be very helpful if you would scan redact and upload a copy of the claimform/s...

 

Again....Summary Judgment/Strike Out of defence application one and the same...Summary Judgment is to strike out your defence.

[MOSS 41]

Two claims , I explained in an earlier post

the same company has started court claims against each company 

company 1 £30,000(liquidated)
company 2 £15,000(existing) 

 

im currently just posting docs /court docs and hoping for advice on company 2 - as this is the one seeking summary judgement which I want to stop 

once this is dealt with , I can move on to discussing company 1 and ask for advice 

 

we didn’t go on a spending spree of act inappropriately  to get in these Situations - we had a massive theft from company 1 over a period of a year - of over £70,000 - we finally caught him , got him arrested , currently in crown court the books been thrown at him . 
 

borrowings were taken to try and fix , we used company 2 to prop up company 1 while we fixed etc - he destroyed our lives 

 

company 2 - getting back on its feet and we are moving forward , company 1 obviously liquidated , when we couldn’t repair the damage 

 

this person broke us, I’m trying to defend/ contest cases to save ourselves as we have just suffered enough 

I would have sorted with full and finals and payments plans etc , but they just went for the jugular - I’m backed in a corner and left no choice to fight (they want it all now and they want charging orders, sale of home , which is specially adapted for my severely disabled daughter who has cerebral palsy and a genetic condition called perisylvian polymcrogria syndrome) 

 

which is why you guys are saving my sanity with your advice and help 

 

so I posted all court docs now for company 2 

I’ll post a copy of the contract tomorrow redacted which they say is a personal guarantee - which it may be , but it states a deed of guarantee of indemnity to be wet signed  witness etc - which we didn’t do and they can’t provide , saying the guarantee is in the contract , plus a whole other matrix of facts around it like 

debenture / security written into contract - released - huge material change on risk for an alleged guarantor that wasn’t signed up for ,

company did a payment plan, the revision memorandum which is required for guarantor signing not done for consent to term changes 

no deed - no consideration etc etc plus other things like potential waiver of rights , no legal advice certification

 

 

- I’m just discussing company 2 for now 

[AndyOrch]

We normally advise one topic per issue or claim...confusion sets in when we are trying to deal with two claims....two lots of court documents...two defences..etc etc....no wonder I cant make any sense of this topic.

 

Note to any Caggers reading this thread.....always start one topic per issue...scan redact and upload all documents.

[MOSS 41]

yes - i will just concentrate on company 2 until summary judgement hearing, 

so just trying to narrow my best defences, although i may have found a new one today

 

 

i have discovered though checking companies house , the debenture deed registered (that was a condition precedent for the loan agreement) (the  lending report states must be provided in support of the lending)

 

has been backdated! but i dont know what effect this will have 

 

i have proof via email it was sent undated 20/08/2018

i have proof via email it was to be signed and returned via post 21/08/2018

so it would have been executed only upon delivery according to clause 17.3 (by fax or two business days after sending so 23/08/2018.

 

at companies house its been handwritten dated by their staff member (clearly their handwriting) back dating it to the date of the contract.

 

would this invalidate the deed because of fraud meaning when contracts signed, you were misrepresented to the risks you were exposing yourself too and wouldnt have signed if you  knew this good security wasnt available/valid/enforceable because of the fraud???

 

will this help fight a summary judgement because fraud is involved and they dont have 'clean hands' or whatever the relevant area is

 

 

[MOSS 41]

still no copy of an application with evidence attached - a condition precedent of the loan was a provision of a deed of debenture,  i would like to know if they have included in their evidence ....this deed of debenture.

 

i now know was falsified and backdated and couldn't have been delivered /effective on the date of the loan with 100% proof. i dont think they will attach this debenture to the evidence for N244 application for summary judgement.-provide loan document only.

 

is it worth doing a part 18 request letter, for a photocopy of the true debenture?

 

reading into it, people say dont use part 18 to expose the other sides weaknesses or give them notice of them?

 

but if they dont produce the debenture, the judge wont know the condition precedent hasn't been met and it is falsified

 

or just leave it all for my witness statement when requested by hearing judge and attach evidence of its falsification and backdating for the hearing?

 

 

 

 

 

[dx100uk]

pers i think its better left till disclosure stage

[AndyOrch]

There isn't a disclosure stage in application for SJ/SO...its all contained within the Witness statement in support of the N244.

 

Pointless doing anything until you can get a copy of the application and n244.....one of the courts must have it.

[MOSS 41]

I’ve emailed the court again asking for a copy , I received a date for the application hearing this morning 24/02/2021! By telephone 
 

so along way off, but still no application included in the paperwork 

 

what else can I do , I’ve asked the court twice now for a copy 

[AndyOrch]

Can you not ring your local county court or possibly call in ?

[MOSS 41]

I did ring - they couldn’t see anything details of the application on the system - just that an application was made and paid for - they weren’t quite sure why they couldn’t see anything - ill have to find out if you are allowed to pop in , with Covid etc , they say on their site don’t attend without permission 

[AndyOrch]

Strange.....well if you can pop in and talk to a human......take the Order received today with regards to the hearing date and ask to see whoever typed that out....can they find the relevant paperwork in connection to the order.

 

Application for this type of order must be made on notice.

 

 

Evidence for the purposes of a summary judgment hearing

24.5

(1) If the respondent to an application for summary judgment wishes to rely on written evidence at the hearing, he must –

(a) file the written evidence; and

(b) serve copies on every other party to the application,

at least 7 days before the summary judgment hearing.

(2) If the applicant wishes to rely on written evidence in reply, he must –

(a) file the written evidence; and

(b) serve a copy on the respondent,

at least 3 days before the summary judgment hearing.

[MOSS 41]

they can serve me 3 days before but I have to do it 7 days before ? Seems unfair 

 

is it possible they did not provide any evidence - they just put in application - no defence ? 
 

so actually no evidence or other reason is yet to materialise until just before hearing 

 

as they have completed forged a deed of debenture which was filed at companies house before I sent a hard signed copy to them 2 days later - ie they made one up while waiting for the real one to appear 

meaning the deed at companies house is not my deed 

 

and this deed is mentioned as pre condition of lending and execution of contract - this deed will need to be provided by them in support of the contract ? Wouldn’t it 

 

as a summary judgement doesn’t really have a disclosure requirement, how do I make sure they bring the real copy to expose what they have done and not false copy (False copy on companies house) I have 100% proof of the falsification and my delivery and posting dates 

 

and as a side note they assign these debentures to 3rd parties , 27 million last year 

what if this behaviour is systemic - even if it was 1 or 10% of the time they falsified deeds on companies house , that they then raised funds against , this is a massive crime no?

[AndyOrch]

They will have filed a witness statement with the application...which is necessary to make the application valid of this type...I would assume that there is exhibits attached to that statement...so the above statement re the applicant is little misleading.....or rather it refers to ongoing evidence with a cut of minimum of 3 days.

 

In theory you dont really need them to disclose the evidence in which you refer to above.....because their application will not be based on that point....for obvious reasons....as long as you raise it in your statement as reason as to why SJ is not acceptable and that there are on going issues within the dispute that need to be clarified...then a court should dismiss their application and order the claim proceed to trial.

[MOSS 41]

i have it !!! application

 

court apologised for not being served as i should have been. obviously the other side dont like to serve me much

 

Edited

 

note the debenture or mention of it is not included where they claim 'execution happened correctly'

it was a condition precedent to drawdown that didnt happen so they made a false one.

 

but my defence was bad /embarrassed as i was waiting on a Deed of guarantee and indemnity they listed in offer email, and execution of agreement  i said i dont want to guarantee and i did not do one.

they say there is no separate personal guarantee-confirming i didnt do one.

they say guarantee in loan agreement- i didnt personally sign loan agreement, only company did

'for and on behalf of' etc xxxx ltd

 

 

 

 

 

 

summary judgement application.pdf

[MOSS 41]

I have done an amended defence that would have been better served at the start- for anyones opinion

and if i should ask that an order to amend my defence should be made instead of a summary judgement order

ammended defence G47YJxxx redacted.pdf

[AndyOrch]

Does not work like that...your initial defence to the claim/s stands...Summary Judgment is a separate entity and must be responded to separate.If they are successful then its game over your initial defence is irrelevant.

 

Is the above in response to their Witness statement ?  If so you must respond the same in statement ...not with an amended defence.