City Permits LTD Windscreen PCN - leeds hospital Algernon firth

[dx100uk]

where the hell are you reading that a speculative invoice can get to £500 by being inflated with unicon food tax and then be litigated upon?

[FTMDave]

The MO of these vile companies is to come out with a load of threats which have no basis in law in the hope the motorist is ignorant of the law and will cough up.

 

If you're worried about court then it's time to start reading up on the process.  There are plenty of government pages which are very clear and in plain English rather than in legalese.

 

Your starting point is that these companies really do not want to do court.  Small claims court encourages informality and the non-use of solicitors.  The winning party can only claim £50 in legal costs for this type of case.  This is a huge problem for the PPCs as they're too stupid to deal with court on their own and invariably have to go running to a local solicitor.  No way will 50 quid pay for a solicitor in court for half a day.  Indeed the entire sum they could win won't cover the solicitor's fees.  QED they don't want to do court.

 

The site has a lot of experience in legal tactics, doing the right thing at the right time, which in the vast majority of cases means the motorist avoids court.  

 

I'm quite happy to type this out but the energy you are spending worrying & panicking would have been better spent simply doing a web search on county court costs.

 

 

Edited November 11, 2020 by FTMDave

[lookinforinfo]

They operate a parking permit system so to park there you need to have already acquired a parking permit to park with them.

 

As you didn't have a permit, in their opinion they don't need to specify a time as the mere fact that you didn't have a permit was sufficient for them to ticket the car.

 

As they haven't specified a time and you are still allowed a period of time to find a place to park, read and understand their terms and conditions and deciding not to stay as you don't agree with their terms, you may also have another string to your bow if you put them to strict proof that you stayed longer than fifteen minutes or so.

 

They cannot charge more than £100 per ticket. Anything more than that would be considered a penalty.

[brassnecked]

Nor can the add admin or recovery fees to a keeper#s alleged liability.  that is what we refer to as Unicorn Feed tax, and has been found in several cases against a Keeper as abuse of process if not downright fraud.

[MegaHamster77]

Hi all. Thanks so much for your help and speedy replies.

 

I have looked around however it's all much too complex for me and I'm already stressed out (as I bet most of you are) with covid as I'm a key worker and working all through this. Sites I have found have said you can claim solicitor costs if the judge decided. It doesn't specify any max they can ask for other things.

 

I've also experienced small claims and they were horrendous with the judge saying to me "you don't get anything for nothing" and ruling against me when someone had done a mock up business card and not mentioned charges. (The guy had a poster on the wall inside stating charges and had not mentioned them).

 

So you can see how I'm nervous about it all.

Worst case if it went to small claims and they used a solicitor and won could it be £200 or so?

 

I just feel super worried about the whole thing and dont understand any rights.

But sorry for being a stress head it's not a great time and my dad's health isn't great. 

 

[dx100uk]

your old case is not related.

 

small claims cost are very limited.

 

there are 100's of PCN claimform threads here that exactly detail them.

certainly much less than £150!!

 

4 hours ago, lookinforinfo said:

The only time you need to react in future is if you receive a Letter before Claim. Then let us know and we will advise you from there.

 

which doesn't mean ....

1, you are going to get one

2. nor they are going to court

3.nor that they will win.

 

go enjoy xmas and new year

stop being a stresshead

 

ps id recommend you only search here in future

please remember what you read in the open internet could well be patsy information designed to make people panic

here ...we don't allow that to happen

 

dx

 

 

[MegaHamster77]

Thanks I appreciate your replies and time!! I will try to chill lol.

 

I have been reading up on the Protection of freedoms act 2012 and it states

 

(g)inform the keeper of any discount offered for prompt payment and the arrangements for the resolution of disputes or complaints that are available;

 

They haven't offered discount this second time so isn't that a breach of what they should be doing? Or do they not have to offer it on the NTK as it seems to me they should. 

 

Should I not look at contesting this through them and then POPLA? Would that be a good or bad idea guys? It does say if you appeal to POPLA and are rejected you lose the right to pay the lower amount (which they seem to have already taken away anyway... 

Hope you are all staying well. 

[dx100uk]

So what??

You wont be paying

Discount or not

 

Not sure why you are so hung up on losing a discount on something no one has to pay anyway if you follow the correct advice...

[MegaHamster77]

Hi guys ive been doing some more research on your site and I can see good arguments come from the signs not being situated correctly etc.

In this case I have looked on the street in google and there is a sign on the fence or wall in every parking bay.

 

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.8017918,-1.5530064,3a,75y,301.44h,80.58t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sR-pXo2XdBIiRzPmnMW9c-Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

 

If you click that link it takes you to the start of the street and then you can see the bay that my fathers car was parked in bay 5 on the left, which is a disabled marked place. It would be cool if you could take a look over this and see how it looks.  It looks like they have cameras if you zoom on the signs on the wall, so could potentially ID drivers or show the time of parking and they do mention £100 fine for parking there. 

 

Im not sure what our argument would be if this went to court, also my dad would be in no condition to argue in court as he is very ill health and has heart problems so obv not good stress. Could I represent him? Is it worth contacting them to tell them the situation or complaining to them and then POPLA. 

 

I dont feel like i have a strong argument for this beyond i dont want to pay and im not sure thats going to hold up in court. These guys look like they have the signs etc covered well, though they are small text. Is it worth trying to contact someone nearby to take photos of the signs for you to take a look at? 

 

Sorry to be bugging everyone but ive been looking through the defence posts here and most people have an argument I dont feel I have. I also feel like these guys are not going to give up at all. The only argument i feel is that he has parked on a blue disabled spot thinking its a disabled spot. The signs for this not being so are in a different place to the parking spot by the looks of it (they seem to be near the initial bays).

 

Ps I have been looking and there are also excuses for mitigating circumstances as dropping of a sick person at hospital but shouldnt i be writing to the company or popla. I feel ignroing them wont be looked upon good in court if it gets there. Also is there a harm in writing as a third party to explain this to them but not telling them the driver etc. 

 

Thanks again, also it says on multiple sites that the NTK should have mention of the discount on it which this copy i put on the PDF definately doesnt have. So this is a breech no?

Edited November 13, 2020 by MegaHamster77

[dx100uk]

34 minutes ago, MegaHamster77 said:

the bay that my fathers car was parked in bay 5 on the left, which is a disabled marked place.

 

no such thing on private land. any tarmac graffiti is just that.

 

35 minutes ago, MegaHamster77 said:

Could I represent him?

 

very doubtful

 

36 minutes ago, MegaHamster77 said:

Is it worth contacting them to tell them the situation or complaining to them and then POPLA. 

 

nope only removes any protection he currently has under POFA 2012.

 

37 minutes ago, MegaHamster77 said:

I feel ignoring them wont be looked upon good in court if it gets there.

 

makes no odds whatsoever 

 

i can't find any examples of this lot doing court.

 

dx

 

[FTMDave]

Quick question - was your father the driver on the day in question?

[dx100uk]

and i know we said hold but that was before we knew he'd had the NTK already you'd said no in the sticky post

did he/you appeal to the hosp pals?

[lookinforinfo]

Don't give up.

There is no point in paying something that you do not owe.

I already explained why you do not owe them any money.

 

Because you didn't have a permit that means that you were trespassing.

City Limits cannot take you to Court for trespass only the landowner can do that and all they would get would be about one penny.

 

Also as your father was not the driver he cannot be liable for the charge, only the driver can be charged and as they do not know the name of the driver, they cannot win should they ever go to Court. And this company tends not to take people to Court anyway.

 

I am not saying that this will all go away soon because it won't.

You will get lying scrotes also known as unregulated debt collectors asking you for more and more money and then give up as there is nothing they can do-they have absolutely no power.

 

My hoover when it is switched off has more power than them.

Just totally ignore them-they really are a bunch of losers.

 

After you have seen them off, you may get a solicitor also demanding money from your father-they can safely be ignored too. They cannot get money out of him because he was not the driver.

 

There may be other arguments too about the signage.

There is nothing at the start of the road to tell you that you are entering a private road and they have a fair number of signs  dotted about, but they are too small and the warnings on them do not catch the eye. 

 

The only thing to look out for is a Letter of Claim or letter before Action.

If your Father gate one of those, let us know and we will get you to make a rude response to send them on their way.

 

If you look at other threads on here you will see that they drag on for ages-I doubt they will stop chasing till after Christmas. But just ignore all their begging letters and enjoy Christmas.

 

[MegaHamster77]

dx100 we didnt appeal to the hospital, Im pretty certain the hospital has nothing to do with the parking.

It looks to me like its parking for the student accommodation behind it, the argernon firth building.

its going to be completely separate to the hospital,

 

kind of annoying how they have painted a blue disabled badge on the floor, it feels to me like its entrapment and this is what has caused them to park there. 

I Feel if i write to popla and complain this and explain the illness and hospital visit popla might override it.

Supposedly they have a 50% cancellation of tickets through complaints, and one of the mitigating circumstances for parking is illness or hospital visits. 

I dont see what issues this would cause to complain other than you are accepting the car was parked there, which the parking company already has proof of if they have cameras which it seems from the signage. 

 

There is no way my father would want to go to court and if that's a possibility and I'm unable to represent him that's a none starter. Which is what's swaying me to popla.

 

Also ive read BPA members should put the discount offer on their NTK  which they haven't done, this feels to me another complaint i can put to poplar that this company isn't doing right if you check the letter they sent me. 

[brassnecked]

You can't write to POLA, unless you have appealed to the PPC, and they refused it, then you asked for a POPLA code. you would be digging an even deeper hole for yourself that way.  POLA aren't a white knight by any means.

[dx100uk]

it's all part of the hospital grounds which are owned by the trust not a stupid PPC.

it doesn't matter what evidence the PPC has about the car being there, it's the DRIVER who parked it and the registered keeper who the PPC think are duty bound to name the driver, they are NOT, they have no proof of who is driving and if you give them that info via popla or WHY it removes the drivers protection under POFA 2012.

 

no harm in complaining to PALS.

but do NOT use real names , use only terms like the driver, the registered keeper.

 

 

[MegaHamster77]

When you say complain to PALS who's that? The hospital trust?

[dx100uk]

On 30/09/2020 at 13:10, Homer67 said:

In the first instance do as DX says and do not appeal to the PPC.

 

Secondly get in touch with the PALS dept for the hospital and complain, send an email to the hospital Trust's CEO, his name should be on their website and it will be [email protected]

 

Thirdly if the hospital brushes you off - local papers love these stories.

https://uk.search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=AwrP4k9YL7BfCzoAzrdLBQx.;_ylc=X1MDMjExNDcxNzAwMwRfcgMyBGZyA3VoM19uZXdzX3dlYl9ncwRncHJpZANKVmpfUFhZMVNWMmpMSHR6M3V1SnRBBG5fcnNsdAMwBG5fc3VnZwMxBG9yaWdpbgN1ay5zZWFyY2gueWFob28uY29tBHBvcwMwBHBxc3RyAwRwcXN0cmwDMARxc3RybAMxOQRxdWVyeQNsZWVkcyUyMGhvc3BpdGFsJTIwUEFMUwR0X3N0bXADMTYwNTM4MjAwNQ--?p=leeds+hospital+PALS&fr2=sb-top&fr=uh3_news_web_gs

[MegaHamster77]

Hi all so latest update phoned the pals and parking there is nothing to do with them it's a student accommodation privately owned algernon firth. They have said however if I want to complain to them at the hospital they will take it on as it's near one of their entrances however not sure what they can do. But I think it's worth complaining how it is a disabled space near the hospital entrance.

[Homer67]

So do not appeal to the PPC or POPLA as you'll waive your rights, wait and ignore everything except a Letter Before Action then come back here for advice.

 

In the meantime do some reading on here so you understand how this works, then if you can, go back to the site and take photos of the signage.

Edited November 17, 2020 by Homer67
typo

[MegaHamster77]

I can't get back to the site to take photos. Will have to either rely on Google maps or find someone who lives near If I can manage that.... too far for me to go at the moment I'm working.

[FTMDave]

On 13/11/2020 at 23:20, dx100uk said:

i can't find any examples of this lot doing court.

 

dx

 

Homer67 has hit the nail squarely on the head.

 

Even more important is this info. that dx dug up.

[MegaHamster77]

Guys why is it a problem to complain to the company, what protections do we lose?

I thought the freedoms act is actually for them so they can fine the keeper rather than have to find out the driver? Could you not write a complaint without naming who the driver is?

Also is it going to be worth complaining to the Hospital PALS?

 

I have spoken to a nice lady there who said she would take up a complaint for me, however the land is private land for the student accommodation in front of the hospital so not covered by them.

 

Unsure how much help complaining to the hospital would be unless they can pressure the company?

 

Thanks again. 

[FTMDave]

Let's assume for one minute for the sake of argument that this charge is legit.  City Permits need to pursue the driver of the vehicle - but they don't know who that is.  They got Parliament to pass the 2012 POFA law so that liability can be passed to the keeper, but only if they follow certain procedures, which they are generally too arrogant and stupid to follow.

People who appeal generally tell the company that they were driving and score a spectacular own goal, which is one of the reasons we say not to appeal.

But in any case these companies' sole source of income is from these invoices.  They regularly ticket genuine residents who have forgotten to show their permit, let alone someone coming in off the street.  What are you grounds of appeal then?  "I did park in a residents' complex when I'm not a resident and I didn't show a permit but please let me off 'cos I'm a good old lad"  What do you really think the company would answer?  PPCs never, ever, ever accept appeals - ever.

To be blunt your attitude to fighting this is completely wrong.  You continually call it a fine when all it is is an invoice.  You've got this idea that you can somehow make the ticket go away.  Doesn't work like that.  City Permits will send a load of letters.  So what?  Ignore them.  The only person who can force your father to pay this invoice is a judge after a court case, and dx has already done research on the company and found out they don't do court.  So stop panicking and ignore City Permits. 

Edited November 22, 2020 by FTMDave
Typos

[dx100uk]

sorry but this over 3 pages now and +6weeks MH77 and you still haven't grasped even a few of the basic principles regarding speculative invoices yet..

and it's just as much your job to go read here on CAG and self educate as it is for us to point out the basic principles for you to follow and thus investigate..

 

it is NOT A FINE.. this is one very very important principle .

POFA - popla - appealing - has already been explained carefully several times since post 1 by multiple members.

 

you rang pals, no-one said do that, you write or Email them and the CEO of the hospital, as again detailed carefully in a previous post here

 

- that way you and the person at the other end,  who both probably don't have a clue what you are talking about, don't get things wrong,

which you both have sadly.

 

as i have explained before, up a few go re read it, the whole of that site inc where the car was parked is owned by the Leeds Teaching Hospitals NHS Trust which pals is part of..