Caravan from leisure caravans - riddled with issues - Advantage Finance cancelled agreement and have the Van but will not refund Payments/repair costs sighting 12mts ownership/use as the reason - Court Time?

[summer9810]

Hi I am after some help and advice regarding issues faced with Advantage Finance

 

Ive dealt with it on my own up to now, but now feel im being fobbed off

 

I purchased a caravan last august on finance and had nothing but trouble with it from the off minor things - heating not working, hot water not working, toilet not flushing

 

Messaged the seller who just ignored my concerns - I had to pay another caravan engineer to look at the caravan to fix said issues

 

Upon the inspection the engineer found extreme damp in the frame and floor of caravan as well as the other issues mentioned above although this  could not be seen by the eye.

 

I immediately called the finance company and the seller to inform of findings and paid the £700 bill to fix the other issues.

The engineer said the caravan was sold dangerously and not set up correctly.

Hence why things never worked for us.

We had only been out in it three times at this point due to work and family commitments.

 

Seller and finance company stated I had to pay for another independent inspection to go in depth with the findings at another cost of £75.

I done this and provided both of them the report which shown even more damp than first anticipated to different areas of the van over 90%.

 

Finance company agreed to then send out there independent inspector who found exactly the same faults and drew up a report to send back.

Finance company then offered seller chance to repair.

 

Seller received caravan back from us and only took blame for the front part of the van and stated they could not find anything wrong with the rest.

Finance company stated for them to fix the areas they take responsibility for.

 

Caravan was fixed and returned to us but I was still not happy as they didn't fix all areas, Finance company agreed to send out another inspector to look.

 

Inspector stated the fix was not sufficient and not waterproof and a bodge job which I was fully aware of and stated the caravan now needs to be rejected due to the seller having a chance to repair and it not being sufficient.

I thought ok great finally, Im winning.

 

Caravan was collected last week and I then sent an email to the finance company thanking them for the rejection and that I would look forward to receiving my payments made over the last year towards the caravan, repair costs, compensation for lost holidays etc

 

They have replied that I am not entitled to anything and the £5000 in payments they have had from me will go towards the usage of the van,

Research I had done up until this point all stated I would receive money back due to van not being fit for purpose?

 

i am very shocked and annoyed I have paid all that money and I am not entitled to anything back.

I have tried to be basic here in what has went on so forgive me if It does not make sense.

Any help or advice greatly received on next steps 

 

I have told the finance company I am not happy to have lost all that money here is their responses

 

Quote

 

Thank you for sending over the information regarding the caravan being collected and taken back to Newark Auctions.

 We will now start the process of removing you from the existing credit agreement and will notify the relevant credit agencies to remove our entry from your file. This therefore removes any responsibility you have regarding this agreement.

 

In terms of any refunds owed to you we have reviewed the account and there are no payments that need to be refunded.

There were no payments made whilst the complaint was open and the payments made prior to the complaint being raised will be retained for usage.

 

Whilst you advised us that you have not used the caravan, this was your choice and the caravan was available for use and in your possession since the start of the hire purchase agreement, it is reasonable that the payments that would have been due during that period are retained.

 As a suitable resolution is in place we will now close the complaint

 

.

 

I replied with - 

Quote

Please do not close the complaint down I am not happy to pay for something that was not fit for purpose I will still be liaising with the financial ombudsman to seek out my refund.

I also hold legal cover with my house insurance so I will commence court proceedings in regards to this complaint could you please forward me any relevant paperwork needed to inform you of this or if indeed this email is sufficient.

I do thank you for rejecting the caravan on our behalf but do not see how I am not entitled to my refund. I was not Aware it had damp until I paid for service.

Your inspector stated the damp was there at point of sale meaning it was not fit for purpose so how can you say I happily used it

 

They have just then replied with this

Quote

Thank you for your email,

However we must advise that based on the information provided we will consider the matter closed as soon as the caravan is confirmed on site at Newark Auction.

A final response will be posted to you that will contain all the details of where the complaint can be referred to if you disagree.

Kind Regards

 

 

I have also emailed them this below 

Quote

Can I please bring your attention to the Consumer Rights Act 2015 whereby it states my right to a refund I have highlighted the points where I feel you are failing in regards to this Act.

Please refer this to you senior to be looked over immediately and I look forward to your reply 

 

Thanks Kelly Gallimore

Right to reject

(1)The short-term right to reject is subject to section 22.

(2)The final right to reject is subject to section 24.

(3)The right to reject under section 19(6) is not limited by those sections.

 

(4)Each of these rights entitles the consumer to reject the goods and treat the contract as at an end, subject to subsections (20) and (21).

 

(5)The right is exercised if the consumer indicates to the trader that the consumer is rejecting the goods and treating the contract as at an end.

 

(6)The indication may be something the consumer says or does, but it must be clear enough to be understood by the trader.

 

(7)From the time when the right is exercised—

(a)the trader has a duty to give the consumer a refund, subject to subsection (18), and

(b)the consumer has a duty to make the goods available for collection by the trader or (if there is an agreement for the consumer to return rejected goods) to return them as agreed.

 

(8)Whether or not the consumer has a duty to return the rejected goods, the trader must bear any reasonable costs of returning them, other than any costs incurred by the consumer in returning the goods in person to the place where the consumer took physical possession of them.

 

(9)The consumer’s entitlement to receive a refund works as follows.

 

(10)To the extent that the consumer paid money under the contract, the consumer is entitled to receive back the same amount of money.

 

(11)To the extent that the consumer transferred anything else under the contract, the consumer is entitled to receive back the same amount of what the consumer transferred, unless subsection (12) applies.

 

(12)To the extent that the consumer transferred under the contract something for which the same amount of the same thing cannot be substituted, the consumer is entitled to receive back in its original state whatever the consumer transferred.

 

(13)If the contract is for the hire of goods, the entitlement to a refund extends only to anything paid or otherwise transferred for a period of hire that the consumer does not get because the contract is treated as at an end.

 

(14)If the contract is a hire-purchase agreement or a conditional sales contract and the contract is treated as at an end before the whole of the price has been paid, the entitlement to a refund extends only to the part of the price paid.

 

(15)A refund under this section must be given without undue delay, and in any event within 14 days beginning with the day on which the trader agrees that the consumer is entitled to a refund.

 

(16)If the consumer paid money under the contract, the trader must give the refund using the same means of payment as the consumer used, unless the consumer expressly agrees otherwise.

 

(17)The trader must not impose any fee on the consumer in respect of the refund.

 

(18)There is no entitlement to receive a refund—

(a)if none of subsections (10) to (12) applies,

(b)to the extent that anything to which subsection (12) applies cannot be given back in its original state, or

(c)where subsection (13) applies, to the extent that anything the consumer transferred under the contract cannot be divided so as to give back only the amount, or part of the amount, to which the consumer is entitled.

 

(19)It may be open to a consumer to claim damages where there is no entitlement to receive a refund, or because of the limits of the entitlement, or instead of a refund.

 

(20)Subsection (21) qualifies the application in relation to England and Wales and Northern Ireland of the rights mentioned in subsections (1) to (3) where—

(a)the contract is a severable contract,

(b)in relation to the final right to reject, the contract is a contract for the hire of goods, a hire-purchase agreement or a contract for transfer of goods, and

(c)section 26(3) does not apply.

 

(21)The consumer is entitled, depending on the terms of the contract and the circumstances of the case—

(a)to reject the goods to which a severable obligation relates and treat that obligation as at an end (so that the entitlement to a refund relates only to what the consumer paid or transferred in relation to that obligation), or

(b)to exercise any of the rights mentioned in subsections (1) to (3) in respect of the whole contract

 

 

 

They have now replied this

 

Quote

 

Thank you for your email,

 

Looking at the information you have provided, subsection 7 which you have highlighted states that this applies from the time your right is exercised, this is the date you raised the complaint, as no payments were made after this date there is no refund to provide.

 

There is also no deposit in this case so there is nothing to refund in relation to this.

 

We have now diligently answered all your questions and as previously mentioned your final response will be sent to you in the post.

 

Thank you

 

 

 

 

 

[BankFodder]

Have you told us who you bought it from?

Also the price paid and costs incurred so far.

May be a good idea to lay out a bullet pointed chronology

 

[summer9810]

Advantage finance was the finance group

leisure caravans I bought from

payments are around £5000

[dx100uk]

have you written evidence and date of the first time you reported any issues to anyone?

and upon what date did you sign the finance agreement.?

[summer9810]

soon as the service was done i reported it to them the same day july 2020 - the yearly inspection was not due till the august of 2020

 

I then requested a payment freeze due to COVID-19 and furlough hence the only reason why no payments have been made since the opening of the complaint

 

I had no reason to think it had damp as this is unseen and in the frame of the caravan. So acted soon as I was made aware.

 

When i bought the caravan a damp report was given to us stating it was free from damp - ive proved this was not true as per SCOTIA report stating in his professional opinion that the damp was there at point of sale.

 

The finance agreement was signed 8th August 2019 via digital signature

 

please see attached the 2nd scotia report 

 

the finance companies written response as per me raising the complaint 

 

Quote

 

Good afternoon,

 

We have received a regulatory complaint from the customer in relation to the above vehicle and as you are aware when a complaint is raised we have a duty of care to investigate it thoroughly in accordance with guidelines set out by the FCA. We have included the customer in to the email for clarity.

 

The customer has had the caravan since August 2019 and has only been used 3 times since purchase, it has been kept in storage when not in use. In July 2020 they were looking to take the caravan out of storage and upon inspection noticed mould when opening the door. They booked it in for a service and were advised the caravan had severe damp.

 

We understand the customer contacted you but you advised you would not help as they were outside of their 6 month warranty. Mrs ...... then approached ourselves to assist as you would not help her. 

 

 In line with The Consumer Rights Act 2015 (CRA 2015) the customer's complaint was raised outside of the first 6 months of the agreement, but if deemed not fit for purpose or unsatisfactory quality then she is entitled to have the repairs completed at no cost to herself. We instructed an independent inspection company to go and assess the caravan based on Mrs ......s complaint (please see attached report).

 

The report confirms the following: The level of dampness currently present has taken many months to have occurred and therefore  it is likely that the dampness was in progression at the point of purchase. In conclusion the fact that there was evidence of long-term dampness penetration would lead us to conclusion that the caravan had dampness penetration at the date of sale and therefore the caravan would not have been considered durable at the point of purchase.

 

As a result of this outcome we are requesting you accept responsibility in terms of rectifying the damp throughout the caravan to bring it back up to industry standard. Mrs .... is responsible for ensuring the vehicle is returned to you for the repairs under CRA 2015 and therefore will need to arrange for it to be transported back. 

 

Please can I ask you to review the information and respond back regarding what you intend to do to assist the customer.

 

Can you come back to me  no later than 5pm Friday 24th July as we would like to conclude the complaint as quickly as we can.

 

Thank you

 

 

 

first report from scotia after my complaint 

 

[dx100uk]

had to remove your name in the above and remove your attachments.

please properly redact documents before uploading .

read upload carefully

[BankFodder]

In post number two – my first response to you, I asked you to lay out a bullet pointed chronology. You haven't done this.

We want to help you – but you seem to like writing a lot and we need to get a fairly quick and succinct summary together with dates – meaning actual dates, not whole months – and the steps which have happened – in steps without too much narrative.

Please will you have a try at this

[summer9810]

apologies will re try

 

• caravan bought on finance Aug 8th 2019
• Took for early service due to some minor issues 7th July 2020 engineers raised concerns with severe damp
• Informed seller and finance company 7th July 2020 - seller stated not happy to help as past warranty. Finance company stated they would need a professional opinion on the damp at a cost to myself
• 14th June paid for a private engineer to do an in depth report on caravan. Found major damp over 90%
• Same day sent that report to finance company via email.
• Finance company then sent SCOTIA on the 23/07/2020 to assess my complaint. They found same issues as my private engineer. They then instructed the seller leisure caravans to repair issues
• 6th August took caravan back to give chance to repair. It was repaired to a poor standard so I requested engineer from Scotia Reinspect
• 28th August SCOTIA re inspect find it to be not fit for purpose and recommend rejections
• 17th September caravan collected from storage yard
• 21st September email from finance company confriming agreement had ended and that i was not entitled to a refund

 

[summer9810]

first inspection from scotia comments - 

 

Quote

 

Our opinion, being based on a physical assessment, written and verbal information supplied,
observations made by the engineer and our previous experience:
The dampness penetration within the caravan is long-standing and is in our opinion caused by
dampness penetration from outside of the caravan through deterioration of the seamed joints.
This is a combination caravan, and is caused by caravan flexing in normal use, this results in
microscopic cracks building up in the caravan seemed joints which, in turn, results in dampness
penetration.
The level of dampness currently present has taken many months to have occurred and therefore is
likely that the dampness was in progression at the point of purchase.
There is no definitive proof that the wrong water pump was fitted to the caravan at the time of
purchase, however the current water pump appears to be a relatively recent fitting.
In conclusion the fact that there was evidence of long-term dampness penetration would lead us to
conclusion that the caravan had dampness penetration at the date of sale and therefore the
caravan would not have been considered durable at the point of purchase.
Therefore, we believe that the caravan should be returned to the sales agent for rectification at
their cost.
We trust the foregoing details are of assistance to you in dealing with this claim. Should you need
any points clarifying or further assistance then please don’t hesitate to contact us.

 

 

 

 

second inspection comments 

 

Quote

I attended the above address to do a vehicle inspection as instructed, after doing a general vehicle condition check which showed the caravan in a below average general condition, I went on to examine the specific faults and found the following:

The caravan was presented for inspection in a secure storage yard.

Externally the caravan gave no cause for concern; it appeared to be in a similar condition as it was during the previous inspection. During the inspection, we noted that repairs have recently been undertaken as a small area of the underside have been cut out, renewed, and painted over with underseal.

The locker floor has been removed, refitted, and resealed to a poor standard. There are gaps in the sealant between the locker floor and walls. The internal rear walls have not been touched at all. There is a damp reading of 90% in the floor under the o/s/r bunks. The sealant between the rear panels is splitting, allowing water ingress to the rear frame.

 

CONCLUSIONS.

Our opinion, being based on a physical assessment, written and verbal information supplied, observations made by the engineer and our previous experience:

We can confirm that the repairs undertaken do not comply with any accepted industry standards such as the AWS approved workshop scheme standards.

Our opinion is not only based on the fact that there were areas adjacent to the repaired bearings that had damp reading of 90% which is not acceptable. We accept that when a caravan is in storage the internal damp readings will increase.

The industry standards damp level is 15% when the caravan is in regular use, increasing to around 20% when the caravan is in storage, particularly in winter months.

As we have a damp reading of 90% in the underfloor focus areas, we can confirm that the repairs have not been carried out to industry standard and therefore we consider these as failed repairs.

 

The caravan should be returned to the repairer/sales agent as we do not consider the caravan to be fit for purpose.

We trust the foregoing details are of assistance to you in dealing with this claim.

Should you need any points clarifying or further assistance then please don’t hesitate to contact us.

 

[BankFodder]

Thank you. The chronology is very helpful. The two reports are helpful and I'm looking over it all. I have to say that I don't believe that the second report was presented to you in the solid block of text which you have reproduced here.
I think it's unfair to put me in a position where I have to order it for you and maybe you would bear this in mind please if you put up further reports. Please put reports and letters et cetera in quotes and make sure things are presented in a way that you would like them presented to you if you were giving the kind of free help that we are trying to give

[BankFodder]

 

I'd like to know a bit more about the finance company please. Which finance company are you dealing with? When they apparently say that the "the agreement has ended" – what do they mean?

[dx100uk]

advantage finance

as bad as moneybarn and make up and interpret the rules as they go along.

 

9/10 in terms of the agreement and the consumer credit act that binds it, they have little actual understanding of it.

 

dx

 

[summer9810]

13 minutes ago, BankFodder said:

Thank you. The chronology is very helpful. The two reports are helpful and I'm looking over it all. I have to say that I don't believe that the second report was presented to you in the solid block of text which you have reproduced here.
I think it's unfair to put me in a position where I have to order it for you and maybe you would bear this in mind please if you put up further reports. Please put reports and letters et cetera in quotes and make sure things are presented in a way that you would like them presented to you if you were giving the kind of free help that we are trying to give

sorry but it is laid out just like that in the report i have literally copied and pasted to you.

 

 

[summer9810]

2 minutes ago, dx100uk said:

advantage finance

as bad as moneybarn and make up and interpret the rules as they go along.

 

9/10 in terms of the agreement and the consumer credit act that binds it, they have little actual understanding of it.

 

dx

 

i get a feeling they are just making it up as they go along giving the fact everything I have read up on regarding rejection always get some sort of money back  

[summer9810]

29 minutes ago, BankFodder said:

 

I'd like to know a bit more about the finance company please. Which finance company are you dealing with? When they apparently say that the "the agreement has ended" – what do they mean?

Advantage Finance

In the email they replied after I had asked for some money back with 

Quote

"Good morning Kelly,

Thank you for sending over the information regarding the caravan being collected and taken back to Newark Auctions.

We will now start the process of removing you from the existing credit agreement and will notify the relevant credit agencies to remove our entry from your file. This therefore removes any responsibility you have regarding this agreement. In terms of any refunds owed to you we have reviewed the account and there are no payments that need to be refunded. There were no payments made whilst the complaint was open and the payments made prior to the complaint being raised will be retained for usage. Whilst you advised us that you have not used the caravan, this was your choice and the caravan was available for use and in your possession since the start of the hire purchase agreement, it is reasonable that the payments that would have been due during that period are retained.

 As a suitable resolution is in place we will now close the complaint.

 Kind Regards"

 

[BankFodder]

Okay well I'm trying to make head and tail of this story.

They seem to be saying that they are closing the finance agreement. I'm afraid I haven't gone through the whole thing at the beginning because there was just too much in the first post.

 

So I understand that you bought a caravan using a finance company
the caravan turned out to be not fit for its purpose/unsatisfactory quality
eventually the finance company has agreed and they have close the agreement with you.

Where is the caravan now?
To what extent are you out of pocket?

Please can you list in a bullet pointed chronology your losses/expenses.

I understand that the finance company is refusing to reimburse you anything because they reckon that you had £5000 worth of use out of it in one year.

During that one year, was the caravan usable – or was it out of service?

You don't seem to tell us anywhere how much you actually paid for the caravan? Was it a new caravan? What would have been the new value of it? How old was it when you bought it?

I'm being only very slightly sarcastic when I say that you have a gift for writing lots and yet giving comparatively little information.!


 

[summer9810]

The caravan has been picked up on behalf of the finance company and my

agreement with them has ended making it that I am no longer responsible for the agreement.

 

the caravan cost 12k unsure of a new one

still selling slightly above this price due to COVID-19 
2 owners from new 2011 model

monthly payments £280 x 12 

storage fee £250

repairs £700 

3 lost holidays 

engineer reports £75 

 

Only used three times since purchase due to work commitments and then COVID lockdown 

[BankFodder]

So you paid caravan – £3360
storage – £250
repairs – £700
engineers report £75
total – £4385

On top of that, there is the value of three loss holidays. Please can you tell us about those. Did you do any bookings? Had you made any arrangements? Had you taken time off work? Had you spent anything in preparation? What do you do instead? Also, how many people were intended to go on holiday?

What be the resale value of the caravan now had it been in good condition?

[BankFodder]

Also, at some point in the thread you mentioned £5000 but I can't remember where or in what context

[summer9810]

The £5000 was just a rough guestimation of costings. Obviously a little less than 5k when I’ve provided you with a breakdown apologies 

 

The holiday losses did not incur any costs as such as holiday company held deposits so have just retained the deposit to use on a new date. 
 

we managed to go to Blackpool for a week in a b n b 2 adults 2 children.

 

Holidays for myself and husband had been granted with work so still took them.

 

I will try find a value for the caravan now and get back to you. Thanks - a quick search has shown me the vans for sale now start from 10,995

 

 

Edited September 21, 2020 by summer9810
Update

[BankFodder]

Yes please. The price of the caravan new – and the present resale value.

Also, how many years old was it when you bought it? And what would be the expected life of such a caravan

[summer9810]

Sorry I edited my post stating a google search shows the value to be from

£10,995

 

i am unsure how I can provide a price new as it is a 2011 model and that’s the price for sale apologies 

[BankFodder]

Well have a hunt through. I'm quite sure that eventually you will find price. Also I'd like to know the expected number of years one could expect to have such a caravan before it simply became unusable.

They are effectively saying that in one year you have had about £5500 worth of use out of it and this seems an extraordinary rate to me.

I have no doubt that you will be able to get most of this back – but we need to understand the values et cetera before we start preparing our case.

[summer9810]

Unsure I can obtain a NEW price for a 2011 model they are all used 

 

A 2020 model of the same spec is 22,500 but I fail to see how that can help corroborate the facts.

 

so long as the van is insured and inspected yearly pretty much like an MOT they can last a vast amount of years however must be inspected yearly to ensure remain damp free.

[BankFodder]

What make is it? Do they have a website