2nd Hand Car - Picked up today, engine fault on the way home!

[Streets]

Hi all,

 

We went with our 18yr old son to look at a car yesterday (19th Sept) which was up for sale with a dealer.  

It’s a 2008 Renault Clio for £1,195.  

 

He decided that he’d like to buy it and paid for it along with a warranty for £70.  

We did online checks on the vehicle before we went to look and my husband test drove it around the residential area and all seemed fine.

He said it was ‘was sold as seen’ which I did dispute with him as I had looked up our rights before we left.  

I knew that whether he said it or not, it didn’t make any difference.

We noticed that the radio wasn’t working and he quickly agreed to fix it if we came back today (20th Sep) and we felt encouraged by this.

He also said that he’d given another customer a full refund the day after purchase due to a clutch issue.

We really felt he was genuine.

 

My son was working so my husband and I drove to pick up the car.  

We saw a different man as the first had gone on holiday this morning.

 

On the way home on the motorway, when I went into 5th gear, the car suddenly went into limp mode and the engine management light came on - ‘check injections’. 

We immediately rang the dealer and took the car straight back, after having filled it with £50 petrol as a surprise for my son.

 At that point we thought it might be an easy fix.

 

It was obviously intermittent as turning the car off cleared the engine light, but it went straight back into limp mode again when in 5th gear during our journey back.  

 

My husband told the guy that it needs to be fixed properly, along with a new whirring noise from under the bonnet or we want a refund.

The man mentioned again that it was sold as seen and my husband said that doesn’t matter, we are within our rights to request this.

He agreed to fix it.

 He said that if he we were refunded he couldn’t get as much money for it because it would then have 1 extra owner!! 
 

After speaking with my son we agreed that we had lost total confidence in the car and the dealer, we were worried this could be an expensive can of worms.  

 

We sent a message and included a picture of the dash showing the engine management light via email & whatsapp to say we want a refund.  

I quoted the Consumer Rights Act 2015 and our right to reject the car within the first 30 days of its not fit for purpose/safe etc.

 

He has completely refused, saying we test drove it and it’s sold as seen.

 He will repair but not refund.  

We have been polite and to the point but he has ignored our most recent message.

 

We feel completely cheated and our son is absolutely gutted as he’s saved for his first car and this has happened.

 

We are committed to getting his money back but not sure what to do now.

How long do we wait for a response. I just want to do things the right way so as not to jeopardise anything. 

Any advice would be very welcome right now, as we are feeling awful. 

Thank you  

[dx100uk]

you are correct

there is no such thing as sold as seen, and most certainly not in regards to a dealer, who you should name.

 

you are quite within your rights to reject the car for a full refund as you've reported it faulty within 30days.

 

please don't tell me after researching ....you paid by Bacs Transfer....

 

 

[Streets]

....Yup. Obviously I have now seen posts advising otherwise. In fact, he could only transfer a max of £1000, so we transferred the rest.  Naive.

[dx100uk]

oppss..

 

i can see you having to launch a court claim here.

 

can you name the dealers please

so the spies can get delving..

 

dx

 

[BankFodder]

7 hours ago, Streets said:

 

He said it was ‘was sold as seen’ which I did dispute with him as I had looked up our rights before we left.  

I knew that whether he said it or not, it didn’t make any difference.

 

 

 

Sorry but this was your first mistake. "Sold as seen" makes a huge difference.
It means that the person you are dealing with can't be trusted and it is immediately a huge red flag and a massive hint you should walk away.

I think we are still waiting for you to tell us who the dealer is. I agree with my site team colleague @dx100uk that you will have to bring a court claim in respect of this. However the problem will be one of enforcement of the judgement. It is beyond doubt that you will win your case – but I'm afraid that enforcing judgements can be very tricky especially with disreputable car dealers and this certainly seems to be a disreputable car dealer in that they are trying to fob you off with "sold as seen" and also within 24 hours they are already refusing to acknowledge your consumer rights.

You should realise that although you are protected by the consumer rights act – and of course, everyone is, but enforcing those rights can be a different matter. For future reference, when you go to see a vehicle, it's a big mistake to feel comfortable and smug because you feel that you are protected by consumer rights. You need to be looking at the business that you are dealing with to ask yourself that if they decide to betray your trust, will you then be able to force them to step up to the mark.
This is the constant difficulty that we have on this forum when dealing with second-hand car dealers.

When you tell us who is the dealer then we may be to give you more information.

 

If you do eventually get the dealer to promise to give you your money back, then you need to be very careful about how you manage it. It would probably be most unwise to put the dealer into possession of the car and the money at the same time. You will need to organise a proper exchange.

Whatever the situation, you going to need to move quickly and very assertively. This probably means that you should issue a letter of claim almost immediately – but let us have a look at the enforcement problem first. What is the name of the dealer?

Also, I notice that you say that you are going back on a motorway. Does this mean that you live some long distance away from them?

 

[Streets]

Hi, 

 

Thank you, I really appreciate you both coming back to me.  Yes I understand and agree with the points you’ve made.  
 

The dealer is only about 20 miles away from us.  Mainline Motors Ltd, Hayes. 

 

The car was immediately returned when the fault happened on the understanding it would be fixed.  In the evening, my son then felt he should get a refund so we are not in receipt of the car.

[BankFodder]

MAINLINE MOTORS LTD
11838374

Created: 21 September 2020 07:59:36

Companies House does not verify the accuracy of the information filed

Overview

• Registered office address: 23 Glebe Road, Hayes, England, UB3 2EB
• Company type: Private limited company
• Incorporated on: 20 February 2019
• Status: Active

Key filing dates

• Accounting reference date: 28 February
• Next accounts due: 20 February 2021
• Last confirmation statement date: 13 August 2020
• Next confirmation statement due: 27 August 2021

Nature of business (SIC)

• 45112 Sale of used cars and light motor vehicles

People

Officers:
5 officers / 3 resignations

• Director DOBROIU, Andra-Ioana ACTIVE
• Nationality: Romanian
• Appointed: 13 August 2020
• Date of birth: August 1997
• Correspondence address: 23, Glebe Road, Hayes, England, UB3 2EB
• Country/State of Residence: England
• Occupation: Director

---

• Director JAVID, Aqib ACTIVE
• Nationality: Pakistani
• Appointed: 13 August 2020
• Date of birth: January 1992
• Correspondence address: 23, Glebe Road, Hayes, England, UB3 2EB
• Country/State of Residence: England
• Occupation: Director

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/11838374

[CraigMcK]

Odd changes of directors out one week back the next

[Streets]

Yes, I was looking at this last night and trying to work out the benefit of those changes?

[BankFodder]

So I the car and they have your money

This is not a good place to be in.

 

Seeing as it is such a cheap motorcar, I'm wondering whether your interest might not be best served by going to see them and trying to deal with them in a friendly way and getting them to fix the problem. However, it wouldn't at all surprise me if the car is in generally very poor condition and there will be one problem after another. Obviously you will be better getting rid of it but I really don't know what the chances are of you getting your money back.

I'm afraid that I think you have probably bought a pup.

 

The history of the company is not very impressive. You might want to go here https://www.trustonline.org.uk/ and see if there been any judgements against them – particularly judgements which have not been satisfied. There will be a fee for this.

I'm afraid I think you are in a very difficult position. I think you have a motorcar which will probably cost more to repair if you take it somewhere else then it cost you to buy. You may well have to bring a legal action and there could be great difficulty in forcing a judgement.

They don't have a website –  do they have a proper premises and are there a of stock vehicles there?

[BankFodder]

In fact looking at their ad on Autotrader, they seem to be using a public car park to show off their cars

 

Quote

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/dealers/hillingdon/hayes/mainline-motors-ltd-10020467#reviews-container

[Streets]

Mmm.  He explained that he’d fallen out with the landlord and now his stock of cars were temporarily on the streets in front of his house.  We do feel utterly taken in by him, the red flags were there and I just feel ridiculous.

 

We dealt with him at his house, which is the address on the Companies House document.

We don’t know what the best course of action is now?

[BankFodder]

Go and search on the land registry websearch service and see who owns the house

[BankFodder]

What company details does it give on any receipt or invoice that you received?

Have you checked for prior judgements as I suggested above

[Streets]

On the invoice it has Mainline Motors Ltd, and the Glebe Road address.

I went to the trust online website, do I check him or the company?

 

[BankFodder]

Check the company I suppose.

i was hoping that maybe the invoice would give some opening to suing them in person rather than as a limited liability company.

No such luck I'm afraid

 

[Streets]

I just checked trust online & they don’t have any judgements against them. 
 

Are we best to get the car back in our possession? 

[London1971]

V common problem for this car. Might be something small like EGR valve needs a clean, might be water pump, might just need a service. Might still be a very good car, just need to spend a little. Naturally you take them to court for the money you spend of course.

[Streets]

Hello.  Yes, I understand this could be the case.  I guess I’m more worried that he has already investigated the problem, realised it was an expensive fix and so cleared the fault & sold the car knowing full well it is not road worthy/safe to drive.

[London1971]

That's a strong possibility, although according to forums this is an intermittent fault that presents when the engine is under load. So there is a slim possibility a 20 mile drive along conventional roads wouldn't have flagged it up.  That still doesn't excuse the dealer though.

[BankFodder]

5 hours ago, Streets said:

I just checked trust online & they don’t have any judgements against them. 
 

Are we best to get the car back in our possession? 

 

2 hours ago, Streets said:

Hello.  Yes, I understand this could be the case.  I guess I’m more worried that he has already investigated the problem, realised it was an expensive fix and so cleared the fault & sold the car knowing full well it is not road worthy/safe to drive.

 

In terms of whether they realised the problem and did a hatchet job on it, nobody will ever know – but it seems unlikely to me. From the look of what they sell and their circumstances, I can't imagine that they are that professional and calculating. I suspect that they simply sell rubbish. Have you looked around at trust pilot et cetera to see what the reviews are? I notice that on auto Trader there are at least three out of the five reviews which were all done on about the same day in September or October 2019. Quite a coincidence.
Anyway, it's not relevant and anyway it would be unable to prove anything.

The big question here is whether if you took an action you could enforce the judgement. I bet you that it would be extremely difficult.
You should consider your risk factors. To start the claim of this value will cost you £70. If they decide to defend and it goes to a hearing then you will have to pay an additional fee of about £115. That means that you risk £185 if you lose the case – which is almost impossible – or if you are unable to enforce judgement – which in my view, is highly likely. In order to enforce the judgement you would transfer the judgement up to the High Court for enforcement by High Court enforcement officers. That would cost a further £66 which would be recoverable if the enforcement was successful.

So you are looking at risk factors amounting to about £250. It would probably also take six months or so in the event that they defended. And as I say, you could still be left empty-handed if you couldn't enforce the judgement.

You can take the car away and then get estimates for the repair – but that means getting it properly sorted out. I would start off by getting an MOT and see what else it is failing on and then go from there. I'm afraid it's quite likely that the entire cost of putting it into a proper condition could be substantially more than the cost of the vehicle.

I don't know how much you could sell it for in its present condition. Maybe you could get £500 for it. I really don't know.

You could simply decide to walk away and leave the car there – and at least you wouldn't have the trouble of having to dispose of it. And you would have to do get over it and realise that you've learnt a very brutal lesson.

I'm very sorry about it all. It must've been a great feeling that you buy something for your son and I'm sure that you were all excited. I don't know how easy it was to put that kind of money together but it may have inflicted an unnecessary hardship on you as well. I'm sure you are all feeling deflated and probably a bit humiliated.

I'm sorry to say that I think you've walked into it – but that doesn't mean that I'm not at all sympathetic and sorry for your situation.

If you want to take a court action then we will help you – but the problem of enforcement is probably very real.

If you can exercise some charm then maybe you could go back to them and try to get them to carry out some of the repairs – but I can imagine they probably don't even have a repair centre or any mechanics. As you are seen, their cars are displayed in a car car park and you bought it in the street. You may as well have gone ahead and bought it from a man in a pub.

So that's my summary of the situation at the moment. There's not a shred of good news in it. I really don't know what else to suggest

 

I'm afraid that for buying a car of this price – from a dealer it's probably pretty well impossible to get a decent vehicle. Don't forget that they will have bought it and they may have paid only £500 for it. Somebody was probably glad to get rid of it. Maybe it was part exchanged in return for some other car in slightly less disastrous condition.

My own view is that if you want a car of this kind of price then you are going to have to buy it privately from someone you know so that you have an idea of the history of it and why it is being sold et cetera. To buy a second hand car for £1000 from a dealer is asking for trouble.

Once again, two points should have set your alarm bells ringing:
that it was sold as seen
that you can't pay by credit card or debit card. If you could have done that then you could have got your bank to take responsibility – and of course they then would have confronted the dealers. The dealers don't want this so they prefer a bank transfer and you went along with it.

Let's know what you want to do. We'll help you if we can

[London1971]

 I brought a Volvo 2 years ago from weird little  dealer for £900, and it's been faultlessly getting me around since  but it did have a huge service history from the previous owner, going back 15 years ! Even down to the AA being called out etc, leaks in radiator.  Those cars are harder to find, when someone has owned a car for years an meticulously cared for it, they are the one's to go for. Irrespective of who's selling it.

[Streets]

I take on board all the points raised, totally.  There are things we thought about prior to purchase, LTD vs private sale, reviews, we checked the cars history online, test drove it etc etc but yes, you are totally correct and when we stop ourselves from being upset, we feel completely foolish.  We tried to avoid buying from friends & family to be honest.

When he was saying ‘sold as seen’ we stupidly didn’t think about what it told us about him, we just knew it didn’t affect our rights.

 

My sons money was from his 18th birthday along with wages, he only works a few hours a week alongside college.  He had a few hundred more but wanted to make sure he could afford the insurance each month, so kept some in his account. If we could have added to it, we would. He is distraught, as are we.  We know this is deemed a relatively small amount of money for a car, but it was a lot for him.
 

Based on your valuable advice and taking everything into consideration we will ask the dealer to fix the car and provide us with a list of the work done.  I understand your point re: no mechanics but this, I think, is our only route in the first instance.

 

We’ll send him a message & let you know how we get on.

 

Thank you, honestly.

 

 

 

 

[BankFodder]

Presumably your son is pretty tech savvy say you can get him to go around the Internet leaving reviews. At the very least it may help other people who fall into the same trap

[Streets]

Ha ha, you read our minds, this was entirely our plan but I would just be a little more comfortable if we had the car here before we go there!