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    • Hi slick!    On 22 July they said they would refund me £74.07 Theres no DD in place as my membership was a once off payment in November last year.  Hi Dx,    I paid through PayPal last year as a one off payment. 
    • I'm trying to understand it all but I certainly tend to agree with my colleague @dx100uk that it looks as if you may have been taken for a ride. You found an advertisement for a bag on an online sales site. Instead of going through the established procedure of that site, which presumably allows them to recover a commission from the seller you started dealing directly with the seller who is an unknown person to you and of course that allowed the seller to avoid paying the commission. At whose suggestion was it that you went off-site? You then pay by PayPal but instead of logging it with PayPal as a payment for a purchased item, you tell PayPal that it was actually simply a gift or transaction between friends and family. This also allowed the seller to avoid paying a PayPal fee on the money. At whose suggestion was it that you paid in this way?       I don't say that you definitely have been scammed, but it doesn't look very good. This is how it might have happened: after you agreed to take the transaction off-site, so you lost the protection of the established system – and the seller avoided the commission and also avoided the sales site knowing that they had sold their item, you then agreed to pay the seller some money – but not for a purchase – simply as a gift. This has two consequences. Firstly, the seller avoids a PayPal fee and secondly, because PayPal has been misled as to the purpose of the payment, you lose the protection of PayPal if it turns out that you've been scammed or there is some other problem with the transaction. The seller then apparently sent you the parcel and they sent you pictures of a package with your address on it. Separately they sent you a Hermes tracking number – but there is no evidence that the package was actually posted to your address. The seller might simply have taken a picture with your address and sent that to you by way of reassurance – and then changed the label and posted the parcel to themselves but sent you a tracking number which is inaccessible to you and in respect of which you will be prevented from getting any information. All you've seen is a parcel with your address on it. All you've been given is a tracking number which satisfied you for a while until the parcel did not arrive and then when you started to make enquiries, you found that you were unable to access any details referring to the tracking number. Of course the tracking number says that the item was delivered – because maybe it was – but in that case it was delivered to the address on the parcel which might have been the seller's own address – or the address of a friend. I don't want to say that this is definitely how it happened, but it is a plausible scenario. Of course Hermes is an awful lot of parcels – but on the other hand I expect that most of the parcel is that going to Hermes hands are delivered successfully. We only get the bad stories on this forum. I can imagine that Hermes rate of successful deliveries is better than 97% because otherwise people wouldn't simply just hate them, they would go out of business.   We can help you bring a complaint against Hermes if you want. However, on the basis of what you say, the odds are stacked against you but it would be useful to try and find out the address which was associated with tracking number. As far as your apparent willingness to travel hundred and 50 miles to ask for your money back, don't bother. If you did actually go there, are you sure that the seller actually lives at the address that you have been given? What evidence do you have that? Of course if you found that the seller didn't reside at that address then it is slamdunk that you have been scammed. But then what are you going to do? You can try to inform the police but of course it won't get you anywhere. You can inform the sales website – but they will say that you brought it on yourself because you agreed to go off-site. You can inform PayPal – that they will say that because you sent the money which was calculated to avoid their fees, you have lost the protection. If you travelled the 150 miles and found that the seller did reside at that address, do you really think that they are going to hand your money over to you? If they are acting dishonestly then they will simply say that it is nothing to do with them, that they addressed it all correctly and they don't understand what has happened and that this is simply Hermes up to their old tricks. What are you going to do? You simply risk getting into a very nasty argument and depending on how bad it went, you might even find that the police are called and I'm afraid that they would be looking at you – not the seller. Maybe you can answer the questions that I've post above as to who it is who initiated the various ways of doing business.    
    • The legal campaign's going well then. The recount in Wisconsin gave Trump more votes but Biden even more, at a cost of $3m. And a donor to the organisation bringing the failed cases is suing to get his $2.5m back.   https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/nov/28/joe-biden-gains-votes-in-wisconsin-county-after-trump-ordered-recount
    • Yes Unicorn feed tax again, can't sue the keeper for more than the Original Charge, so any additional Debt Collection fees aka the £60 they add is abuse,iof process as per HHJ Harvey at Lewes county Court What lookedinfroinfo is indicating is that the main signage on entry and dotted around is merely an " Invitation to Treat", not the offer, the Offer and Acceptance occurs at the payment machine, so wording there is key.
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Return of vehicle, distance sale


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Just to remind us - what was Advice Direct Scotland saying again?  Were they suggesting the distance selling/cancellation route or something else?  And sue in Scotland or England?

 

Also - what is the registration number of the car you have?  Is it A16BYN and are you the registered keeper?  Have you got the V5C?

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What does "TRADEFLAG  Trade" signify in the advert?  Is that meant to warn potential buyers that this is a trade sale only?  If so, does it have any effect?   Just to add on the OP's be

We do have a Scotland Financial Legal issues Forum which will give you plenty of advice re the Legal Position.   https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/371-scotland-financial-legal-issu

Unfortunately not, when I sent the template letter on the advice of the consumer advice despite being in email ping pong with them for 2 days about the fact I was reading legislation that he was in fa

Those plates are still on the vehicle he put the original plates in the boot, which is MM03 CME. I am the current registered keeper in possession of the v5.

 

Yes under distance sale regs with advice direct, as I have mentioned previously I notified the dealer in wished to cancel within the 14 day period and no reason was required to be given under those circumstances,  obviously extended to 12 months and 14 days because of the lack of pre contract information given before commencing the contract.

 

Hope this helps 

 

 

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Now the dealer is saying he is happy to go through adr...I presume now that the final letter before action was sent last week this is now too late? 

 

Otherwise he is saying if he collects the car he will charge me for the cost of it, or he will offer me £300 goodwill gesture towards the issues with the car. 

 

the new email

 

Please note - without prejudice
I am happy for you to enter ADR.
• ••
I reiterate i have NOT refused to discuss or resolve this,


Here are proposals -


Option 1 -
As you were the person responsible for organising the collection of the car & NOT US, please bring it
back to us & i will issue a full refund of £ 1850 into your account upon receiving the car back in Birmingham


Option 2
I am happy to give you a good will gesture of £300 towards the cost of the car to resolve any outstanding issues you deem fit.


Option 3
I can collect the car from Aberdeen, but again as you had originally arranged to pick it up, the cost of this would be deducted of the price of £1850.


Option 4 -
You refuse these options, we go down the ADR ROUTE, failing this it ends up in court.
I then attend the court session and we have an opportunity to put our cases in front of the judge.
I will leave it to you now as i have made my position quite clear & just to confirm i am happy for ADR.


Regards

 

 

email from trader 29-09-2020.pdf

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this is getting to look better for you.

but i cant see how just because you collected the car, by default you have to pay to return it...

doesn't work like that under contract cancellation as you know.

 

dx

 

 

 

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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I think you mean because he supplied no cancellation information prior to the contract that automatically negates me having to pay / or be charged from the balance of the car any costs associated with the return, he also has to refund me the cost of delivery,

 

however I am actually willing (maybe) to let that one go upon receipt of a refund. 

 

This situation has already been the source of great stress

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yes i said does and not doesnt duh!

 

i'll convert that email to PDF for you.

 

its probably alot easier just to login to your email providers website from a PC and simply copy and paste the textfrom the email next time

 

dx

 

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please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Noted! Hopefully there won't have to be another time though!  

 

I did respond to the email, I just said that he cannot deduct any costs incurred for collecting / picking up the vehicle and if it heads down the route of ADR which is a total new concept of me having any involvement with, that he would have to pay a refund/the cost of the car and the cost associated with the collection of the vehicle. 

 

Upon further checking the legislation because he gave me no cancellation rights prior to the contract starting he is indeed guilty of an offence, which is the likelihood of what trading standards are dealing with in regards to his local TS contacting him. 

 

 

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dx100uk

 

do you think it might help if the OP went back to the dealer and argued the point about the dealer having to pay the vehicle recovery costs (in the event of a cancellation and no pre-contract info) by quoting to them the Motor Trade Ombudsman's view on the question from post #25?   I mean, the motor trade ombudsman is not generally well-known for being on the consumer's side, and yet there they are spelling out the OP's argument for her!

 

This could be backed up by (1) reiterating that the advertised mileage does not agree with the MOT history - at least I think that's the case; I haven't quite got my head round it yet, and (2) pointing out that the "sold for spares" bit is simply untrue.  She could wind up by suggesting that she thinks any ADR or court would find in her favour on all three of these points and ask if he wants to reconsider his position.

 

See if that shifts the dealer any further.

 

Assuming he won't move, then either go for ADR (is this binding and who does it?) as a first step or continue with legal claim.

 

Only contra-indications I see:  (1) I think the distance selling/extended cancellation argument is very unusual with a used car purchase and have no idea if it's likely to be successful.  BUT Advice Direct Scotland and Aberdeen TS seem to think it's possible(?) and so does the Motor Trade Ombudsman - so who knows.

 

(2) BankFodder did suggest several pages back that if the OP got the purchase price back that might be a result, but that would mean either writing off two sets of transportation fees or arguing separately about them.

 

 

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13 hours ago, Aton2244 said:

I have responded asking what the criminal side would be, whether it was no pre contract information given, or the spares etc being written on the invoice, or if indeed because it was on a 'trade sale' invoice...

 

get this answered first IMHO.

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Manxman, 

Again thank you for your thorough response.  

 

I believe the MOT issue as the most recent one shows the mileage history for the MM03 CME original plates,  then it's more something relating to the private plates being on a different car with the higher mileage. It still doesn't really explain why then the mot expired on the 2nd of July and on the same day the original plates passed and was actually extended to January 2021 with the whole ongoing situation and mot's being extended by 6 months. I'm certain that should have meant the original plates should have been on the car since July 19, why the private plates are still on the car remains a complete mystery. 

 

I was told that ADR would be arbitration and that any decision made would be indeed binding, I'm not sure who would do it as I hadn't reached that stage,  all I know is they are completely impartial to both parties.

 

the distance selling regs are the same whether someone is selling a toaster or a car, and because the required information was not given to me pre contract then the extension does indeed apply in this case.

 

Bank fodder suggested I send the car back and then claim for those charges, but as I am not required to do so, I haven't. I have however made the vehicle available for collection at any time. 

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dx100 will know the answer to this - are all forms of ADR necessarily binding?

 

I ask because I thought that when you made a money claim there was a question as to whether you were willing to try "mediation" prior to it getting to court, but I didn't think that that mediation was binding?  ('Cos obviously if the mediator gets the law wrong you can't be bound by the decision.  But I may be entirely mistaken about that and misunderstanding what happens in mediation... )

 

I understand that the distance selling/cancellation rules apply to used cars like everything else - but I wouldn't be surprised if nobody has ever actually used that argument before.  I doubt anybody has ever attempted to get a refund on a used car by cancelling it within a year and 14 days.  But that doesn't mean it wouldn't work and obviously the Motor Trade Ombudsman thinks it would work as they specifically refer to it?

 

[EDIT:  And this is where they do  https://www.themotorombudsman.org/knowledge-base/can-i-return-my-car-within-14-days-of-buying-it      They didn't inform you of your right to cancel?  I also note this link doesn't talk about who pays the return transportation costs?]    

 

I'm just of the view that there is always an element of lottery attached to any case that gets as far as court, no matter how good your case may be.  I think the risk is higher with a novel untried argument.  (Well - I say untried but maybe it's happening all the time... )

Edited by Manxman in exile
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May be of interest ....

 

 

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as from point 34.

 

but point 40 nails him:

 

(43)

If the trader has not adequately informed the consumer prior to the conclusion of a distance or off-premises contract, the withdrawal period should be extended. However, in order to ensure legal certainty as regards the length of the withdrawal period, a 12-month limitation period should be introduced.

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Three questions:

 

1.  Does UK law mirror those EU directives?  (I assume it does, but I'm not certain).

 

2.  Just looking through that EU stuff it says the information about cancellation etc needs to be in a "clear and understandable format".  It doesn't mention anything like in a "durable medium" which I thought was UK law.  OP - I presume the dealer never communicated anything at all to you about cancellation rights?  Could they argue they did?

 

3.  Could the dealer possibly argue that because the car was picked up by the OP's agent (who signed the invoice) and that the balance of the purchase price was transferred by the OP during pick up, that it was not a distance sale?

 

Sorry - just trying to anticipate what could go wrong...

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5 minutes ago, Manxman in exile said:

"durable medium"

is mentioned lots of times

 

dx

 

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please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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I suppose he could say he did, until the cows came home, however, he would need to prove it. Because he didn't,  he cannot prove anything. 

 

I reference to the 3rd party signing on my behalf which I had no knowledge of until seeing the invoice, I'm not sure that would hold up if it went through mediation because it wasn't him purchasing the vehicle he was only collecting it. However I could be wrong as I can't seem to find much pertaining this.

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Well if he can't prove that he told you by reference to something, then by definition he didn't tell you in a "durable medium"!

 

Durable medium

Under the Consumer Contract regulations, a durable medium means one that allows information to be addressed personally to the consumer and allows the consumer to store and access it for future reference in an unchanged form. Examples of a durable medium are paper, email, text message, and a personal account, such as online accounts used by utility companies for billing

 

https://www.mylawyer.co.uk/regulatory-requirements-for-consumer-contracts-a-A76062D77397/

 

I understand the cancellation argument but it just seems strange to me that a used car refund might hinge on whether the dealer informed a distance purchaser of their right to cancel in a durable medium.  Something doesn't seem right about it...

 

But all the arguments seem to be stacking up in favour of it, so...

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Posted (edited)

Email back from TS this afternoon as follows:

 

RE: Deleted advert
 
To:
 
Thu 01/10/2020 14:24
 

Hi *****,

 

The civil side of your complaint and the criminal side are two different things.

 

The criminal side is both the lack of pre-contract information provided (including no cancelation rights), stating in the advert that the car was in good condition when it wasn’t and claiming it was sold for spares. This has been dealt with and Birmingham Trading Standards have been made aware of this.

 

The civil side, for you to reject it and claim your money back, is that it was misdescribed, i.e. advertised that it was in good condition when it wasn’t. Also, as you bought it online, you are entitled to return it even if it had been as described as you have cancelation rights which extend to 12 months and 14 days because you weren’t given a notice of these rights prior to buying it.

 

Citizens Advice would be the best people to advise you about taking a simple procedure (small claim) against the trader at Aberdeen Sheriff Court.

 

The invoice clearly states it is a Trade Sale which certainly indicates to me it is one that would be used for a trade to trade sale, not a sale to a consumer.

 

Regards

 

 

in other correspondence from the dealer today,  he expects me to be 'reasonable' because he has to travel 400 odd miles to collect the car and accept 150 off the refund to cover his travel costs 😂 which apparently will take 3 days (?!)

 

for the sake of my sanity and putting a line under the entire debacle, I emailed back without prejudice that I would be willing to accept £1775 and that the money would have to be in my bank account before it left my father's driveway. I also reminded him should it end up in ADR or court he'd be liable for the refund the original cost of delivery I paid and also he would still be liable for the full cost of the return to Birmingham. I'd say £1775 is letting him off lightly.

Edited by Aton2244
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5 minutes ago, Aton2244 said:

The criminal side is both the lack of pre-contract information provided (including no cancelation rights), stating in the advert that the car was in good condition when it wasn’t and claiming it was sold for spares. This has been dealt with and Birmingham Trading Standards have been made aware of this.

i wonder how they dealt with it?

 

5 minutes ago, Aton2244 said:

I'd say £1775 is letting him off lightly.

agreed he is getting off lightly, but interesting how he now understands he must get it back himself.....

 

 

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Ok, he will not budge and is refusing the £1775 offer to settle which to be honest in my opinion is more than generous. If I agree to the 1700 I'm losing out on over £500 on the car plus original delivery cost, so I think I may put this through ADR. 

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So it's cost you 1850 + 361 = £2211

 

Yes - he's getting off lightly with 1775  and he wants to knock you back to 1700?

 

Unless you are happy to accept 1700 to make it go away, I think I'd go back to him, remind him that it's cost you over £2200 and that Trading standards in Scotland agree you have a valid case.  Tell him you are doing him a favour by offering to settle for 1775, and that if he doesn't except it within the next (I don't know - 48 hours? - by midnight saturday?*) you'll withdraw that offer and it goes up to £1850.  If he doesn't accept that you'll withdraw that offer too and go to ADR for the full £2200 that he's cost you.

 

If he argues that it was your decision to incur the £361 transport costs, remind him that you only had to do that because his quoted delivery costs were extortionately high, and that he could have avoided all of this by giving you the necessary pre-contract information in the first place, as required by law.

 

That's what I'd now do - but it's easy for me to say because it's your money not mine!  Wait and see what dx100uk and any others suggest.  If I were you, I certainly wouldn't do the above just on my advice.  In particular, I'm not sure how risky going to ADR is from your point of view, but I assume you're sort of committed to that now as you've offered it, and he accepted ADR I think?  (And if it does get to ADR it might be helpful to know if you are allowed to indicate during that process that his potential criminal offences have been reported to TS.  I don't know if you'd be allowed to do that or not.)

 

The dealer does seem to have given away quite a bit of ground, but at the end of the day you may be happy with £1700 just to get over it and move on, and may not want to push him any further.

 

Don't just rely on me.  See what others think.

 

*I've no idea of appropriate timescales.  48 hrs?  72?  five days?  A week?

 

But if you make this threat - you have to carry it through...

Edited by Manxman in exile
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Aton - I see you've reacted to my post.  Note I've edited it since you read it.  I added the bit in asterisks about reasonable timescale.  Like I say don't just rely on me - see what others say too

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