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    • Hermes lost parcel.. Read more at https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/422615-hermes-lost-parcel/
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    • I came across this discussion recently and just wanted to give my experience of A Shade Greener that may help others regarding their boiler finance agreement.
       
      We had a 10yr  finance contract for a boiler fitted July 2015.
       
      After a summer of discontent with ASG I discovered that if you have paid HALF the agreement or more you can legally return the boiler to them at no cost to yourself. I've just returned mine the feeling is liberating.
       
      It all started mid summer during lockdown when they refused to service our boiler because we didn't have a loft ladder or flooring installed despite the fact AS installed the boiler. and had previosuly serviced it without issue for 4yrs. After consulting with an independent installer I was informed that if this was the case then ASG had breached building regulations,  this was duly reported to Gas Safe to investigate and even then ASG refused to accept blame and repeatedly said it was my problem. Anyway Gas Safe found them in breach of building regs and a compromise was reached.
       
      A month later and ASG attended to service our boiler but in the process left the boiler unusuable as it kept losing pressure not to mention they had damaged the filling loop in the process which they said was my responsibilty not theres and would charge me to repair, so generous of them! Soon after reporting the fault I got a letter stating it was time we arranged a powerflush on our heating system which they make you do after 5 years even though there's nothing in the contract that states this. Coincidence?
       
      After a few heated exchanges with ASG (pardon the pun) I decided to pull the plug and cancel our agreement.
       
      The boiler was removed and replaced by a reputable installer,  and the old boiler was returned to ASG thus ending our contract with them. What's mad is I saved in excess of £1000 in the long run and got a new boiler with a brand new 12yr warranty. 
       
      You only have to look at TrustPilot to get an idea of what this company is like.
       
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    • Dazza a few months ago I discovered a good friend of mine who had ten debts with cards and catalogues which he was slavishly paying off at detriment to his own family quality of life, and I mean hardship, not just absence of second holidays or flat screen TV's.
       
      I wrote to all his creditors asking for supporting documents and not one could provide any material that would allow them to enforce the debt.
       
      As a result he stopped paying and they have been unable to do anything, one even admitted it was unenforceable.
       
      If circumstances have got to the point where you are finding it unmanageable you must ask yourself why you feel the need to pay.  I guarantee you that these companies have built bad debt into their business model and no one over there is losing any sleep over your debt to them!  They will see you as a victim and cash cow and they will be reluctant to discuss final offers, only ways to keep you paying with threats of court action or seizing your assets if you have any.
       
      They are not your friends and you owe them no loyalty or moral duty, that must remain only for yourself and your family.
       
      If it was me I would send them all a CCA request.   I would bet that not one will provide the correct response and you can quite legally stop paying them until such time as they do provide a response.   Even when they do you should check back here as they mostly send dodgy photo copies or generic rubbish that has no connection with your supposed debt.
       
      The money you are paying them should, as far as you are able, be put to a savings account for yourself and as a means of paying of one of these fleecers should they ever manage to get to to the point of a successful court judgement.  After six years they will not be able to start court action and that money will then become yours.
       
      They will of course pursue you for the funds and pass your file around various departments of their business and out to third parties.
       
      Your response is that you should treat it as a hobby.  I have numerous files of correspondence each faithfully organised showing the various letters from different DCA;s , solicitors etc with a mix of threats, inducements and offers.   It is like my stamp collection and I show it to anyone who is interested!
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Return of vehicle, distance sale


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Just to remind us - what was Advice Direct Scotland saying again?  Were they suggesting the distance selling/cancellation route or something else?  And sue in Scotland or England?

 

Also - what is the registration number of the car you have?  Is it A16BYN and are you the registered keeper?  Have you got the V5C?

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What does "TRADEFLAG  Trade" signify in the advert?  Is that meant to warn potential buyers that this is a trade sale only?  If so, does it have any effect?   Just to add on the OP's be

We do have a Scotland Financial Legal issues Forum which will give you plenty of advice re the Legal Position.   https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/371-scotland-financial-legal-issu

Unfortunately not, when I sent the template letter on the advice of the consumer advice despite being in email ping pong with them for 2 days about the fact I was reading legislation that he was in fa

Those plates are still on the vehicle he put the original plates in the boot, which is MM03 CME. I am the current registered keeper in possession of the v5.

 

Yes under distance sale regs with advice direct, as I have mentioned previously I notified the dealer in wished to cancel within the 14 day period and no reason was required to be given under those circumstances,  obviously extended to 12 months and 14 days because of the lack of pre contract information given before commencing the contract.

 

Hope this helps 

 

 

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Now the dealer is saying he is happy to go through adr...I presume now that the final letter before action was sent last week this is now too late? 

 

Otherwise he is saying if he collects the car he will charge me for the cost of it, or he will offer me £300 goodwill gesture towards the issues with the car. 

 

the new email

 

Please note - without prejudice
I am happy for you to enter ADR.
• ••
I reiterate i have NOT refused to discuss or resolve this,


Here are proposals -


Option 1 -
As you were the person responsible for organising the collection of the car & NOT US, please bring it
back to us & i will issue a full refund of £ 1850 into your account upon receiving the car back in Birmingham


Option 2
I am happy to give you a good will gesture of £300 towards the cost of the car to resolve any outstanding issues you deem fit.


Option 3
I can collect the car from Aberdeen, but again as you had originally arranged to pick it up, the cost of this would be deducted of the price of £1850.


Option 4 -
You refuse these options, we go down the ADR ROUTE, failing this it ends up in court.
I then attend the court session and we have an opportunity to put our cases in front of the judge.
I will leave it to you now as i have made my position quite clear & just to confirm i am happy for ADR.


Regards

 

 

email from trader 29-09-2020.pdf

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this is getting to look better for you.

but i cant see how just because you collected the car, by default you have to pay to return it...

doesn't work like that under contract cancellation as you know.

 

dx

 

 

 

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

 

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

 

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

 

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

 

 

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I think you mean because he supplied no cancellation information prior to the contract that automatically negates me having to pay / or be charged from the balance of the car any costs associated with the return, he also has to refund me the cost of delivery,

 

however I am actually willing (maybe) to let that one go upon receipt of a refund. 

 

This situation has already been the source of great stress

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yes i said does and not doesnt duh!

 

i'll convert that email to PDF for you.

 

its probably alot easier just to login to your email providers website from a PC and simply copy and paste the textfrom the email next time

 

dx

 

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please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

 

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

 

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

 

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

 

 

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Noted! Hopefully there won't have to be another time though!  

 

I did respond to the email, I just said that he cannot deduct any costs incurred for collecting / picking up the vehicle and if it heads down the route of ADR which is a total new concept of me having any involvement with, that he would have to pay a refund/the cost of the car and the cost associated with the collection of the vehicle. 

 

Upon further checking the legislation because he gave me no cancellation rights prior to the contract starting he is indeed guilty of an offence, which is the likelihood of what trading standards are dealing with in regards to his local TS contacting him. 

 

 

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dx100uk

 

do you think it might help if the OP went back to the dealer and argued the point about the dealer having to pay the vehicle recovery costs (in the event of a cancellation and no pre-contract info) by quoting to them the Motor Trade Ombudsman's view on the question from post #25?   I mean, the motor trade ombudsman is not generally well-known for being on the consumer's side, and yet there they are spelling out the OP's argument for her!

 

This could be backed up by (1) reiterating that the advertised mileage does not agree with the MOT history - at least I think that's the case; I haven't quite got my head round it yet, and (2) pointing out that the "sold for spares" bit is simply untrue.  She could wind up by suggesting that she thinks any ADR or court would find in her favour on all three of these points and ask if he wants to reconsider his position.

 

See if that shifts the dealer any further.

 

Assuming he won't move, then either go for ADR (is this binding and who does it?) as a first step or continue with legal claim.

 

Only contra-indications I see:  (1) I think the distance selling/extended cancellation argument is very unusual with a used car purchase and have no idea if it's likely to be successful.  BUT Advice Direct Scotland and Aberdeen TS seem to think it's possible(?) and so does the Motor Trade Ombudsman - so who knows.

 

(2) BankFodder did suggest several pages back that if the OP got the purchase price back that might be a result, but that would mean either writing off two sets of transportation fees or arguing separately about them.

 

 

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13 hours ago, Aton2244 said:

I have responded asking what the criminal side would be, whether it was no pre contract information given, or the spares etc being written on the invoice, or if indeed because it was on a 'trade sale' invoice...

 

get this answered first IMHO.

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

 

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

 

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

 

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

 

 

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Manxman, 

Again thank you for your thorough response.  

 

I believe the MOT issue as the most recent one shows the mileage history for the MM03 CME original plates,  then it's more something relating to the private plates being on a different car with the higher mileage. It still doesn't really explain why then the mot expired on the 2nd of July and on the same day the original plates passed and was actually extended to January 2021 with the whole ongoing situation and mot's being extended by 6 months. I'm certain that should have meant the original plates should have been on the car since July 19, why the private plates are still on the car remains a complete mystery. 

 

I was told that ADR would be arbitration and that any decision made would be indeed binding, I'm not sure who would do it as I hadn't reached that stage,  all I know is they are completely impartial to both parties.

 

the distance selling regs are the same whether someone is selling a toaster or a car, and because the required information was not given to me pre contract then the extension does indeed apply in this case.

 

Bank fodder suggested I send the car back and then claim for those charges, but as I am not required to do so, I haven't. I have however made the vehicle available for collection at any time. 

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dx100 will know the answer to this - are all forms of ADR necessarily binding?

 

I ask because I thought that when you made a money claim there was a question as to whether you were willing to try "mediation" prior to it getting to court, but I didn't think that that mediation was binding?  ('Cos obviously if the mediator gets the law wrong you can't be bound by the decision.  But I may be entirely mistaken about that and misunderstanding what happens in mediation... )

 

I understand that the distance selling/cancellation rules apply to used cars like everything else - but I wouldn't be surprised if nobody has ever actually used that argument before.  I doubt anybody has ever attempted to get a refund on a used car by cancelling it within a year and 14 days.  But that doesn't mean it wouldn't work and obviously the Motor Trade Ombudsman thinks it would work as they specifically refer to it?

 

[EDIT:  And this is where they do  https://www.themotorombudsman.org/knowledge-base/can-i-return-my-car-within-14-days-of-buying-it      They didn't inform you of your right to cancel?  I also note this link doesn't talk about who pays the return transportation costs?]    

 

I'm just of the view that there is always an element of lottery attached to any case that gets as far as court, no matter how good your case may be.  I think the risk is higher with a novel untried argument.  (Well - I say untried but maybe it's happening all the time... )

Edited by Manxman in exile
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as from point 34.

 

but point 40 nails him:

 

(43)

If the trader has not adequately informed the consumer prior to the conclusion of a distance or off-premises contract, the withdrawal period should be extended. However, in order to ensure legal certainty as regards the length of the withdrawal period, a 12-month limitation period should be introduced.

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

 

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

 

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

 

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

 

 

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Three questions:

 

1.  Does UK law mirror those EU directives?  (I assume it does, but I'm not certain).

 

2.  Just looking through that EU stuff it says the information about cancellation etc needs to be in a "clear and understandable format".  It doesn't mention anything like in a "durable medium" which I thought was UK law.  OP - I presume the dealer never communicated anything at all to you about cancellation rights?  Could they argue they did?

 

3.  Could the dealer possibly argue that because the car was picked up by the OP's agent (who signed the invoice) and that the balance of the purchase price was transferred by the OP during pick up, that it was not a distance sale?

 

Sorry - just trying to anticipate what could go wrong...

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5 minutes ago, Manxman in exile said:

"durable medium"

is mentioned lots of times

 

dx

 

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please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

 

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

 

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

 

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

 

 

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I suppose he could say he did, until the cows came home, however, he would need to prove it. Because he didn't,  he cannot prove anything. 

 

I reference to the 3rd party signing on my behalf which I had no knowledge of until seeing the invoice, I'm not sure that would hold up if it went through mediation because it wasn't him purchasing the vehicle he was only collecting it. However I could be wrong as I can't seem to find much pertaining this.

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Well if he can't prove that he told you by reference to something, then by definition he didn't tell you in a "durable medium"!

 

Durable medium

Under the Consumer Contract regulations, a durable medium means one that allows information to be addressed personally to the consumer and allows the consumer to store and access it for future reference in an unchanged form. Examples of a durable medium are paper, email, text message, and a personal account, such as online accounts used by utility companies for billing

 

https://www.mylawyer.co.uk/regulatory-requirements-for-consumer-contracts-a-A76062D77397/

 

I understand the cancellation argument but it just seems strange to me that a used car refund might hinge on whether the dealer informed a distance purchaser of their right to cancel in a durable medium.  Something doesn't seem right about it...

 

But all the arguments seem to be stacking up in favour of it, so...

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Posted (edited)

Email back from TS this afternoon as follows:

 

RE: Deleted advert
 
To:
 
Thu 01/10/2020 14:24
 

Hi *****,

 

The civil side of your complaint and the criminal side are two different things.

 

The criminal side is both the lack of pre-contract information provided (including no cancelation rights), stating in the advert that the car was in good condition when it wasn’t and claiming it was sold for spares. This has been dealt with and Birmingham Trading Standards have been made aware of this.

 

The civil side, for you to reject it and claim your money back, is that it was misdescribed, i.e. advertised that it was in good condition when it wasn’t. Also, as you bought it online, you are entitled to return it even if it had been as described as you have cancelation rights which extend to 12 months and 14 days because you weren’t given a notice of these rights prior to buying it.

 

Citizens Advice would be the best people to advise you about taking a simple procedure (small claim) against the trader at Aberdeen Sheriff Court.

 

The invoice clearly states it is a Trade Sale which certainly indicates to me it is one that would be used for a trade to trade sale, not a sale to a consumer.

 

Regards

 

 

in other correspondence from the dealer today,  he expects me to be 'reasonable' because he has to travel 400 odd miles to collect the car and accept 150 off the refund to cover his travel costs 😂 which apparently will take 3 days (?!)

 

for the sake of my sanity and putting a line under the entire debacle, I emailed back without prejudice that I would be willing to accept £1775 and that the money would have to be in my bank account before it left my father's driveway. I also reminded him should it end up in ADR or court he'd be liable for the refund the original cost of delivery I paid and also he would still be liable for the full cost of the return to Birmingham. I'd say £1775 is letting him off lightly.

Edited by Aton2244
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5 minutes ago, Aton2244 said:

The criminal side is both the lack of pre-contract information provided (including no cancelation rights), stating in the advert that the car was in good condition when it wasn’t and claiming it was sold for spares. This has been dealt with and Birmingham Trading Standards have been made aware of this.

i wonder how they dealt with it?

 

5 minutes ago, Aton2244 said:

I'd say £1775 is letting him off lightly.

agreed he is getting off lightly, but interesting how he now understands he must get it back himself.....

 

 

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

 

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

 

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

 

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

 

 

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Ok, he will not budge and is refusing the £1775 offer to settle which to be honest in my opinion is more than generous. If I agree to the 1700 I'm losing out on over £500 on the car plus original delivery cost, so I think I may put this through ADR. 

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So it's cost you 1850 + 361 = £2211

 

Yes - he's getting off lightly with 1775  and he wants to knock you back to 1700?

 

Unless you are happy to accept 1700 to make it go away, I think I'd go back to him, remind him that it's cost you over £2200 and that Trading standards in Scotland agree you have a valid case.  Tell him you are doing him a favour by offering to settle for 1775, and that if he doesn't except it within the next (I don't know - 48 hours? - by midnight saturday?*) you'll withdraw that offer and it goes up to £1850.  If he doesn't accept that you'll withdraw that offer too and go to ADR for the full £2200 that he's cost you.

 

If he argues that it was your decision to incur the £361 transport costs, remind him that you only had to do that because his quoted delivery costs were extortionately high, and that he could have avoided all of this by giving you the necessary pre-contract information in the first place, as required by law.

 

That's what I'd now do - but it's easy for me to say because it's your money not mine!  Wait and see what dx100uk and any others suggest.  If I were you, I certainly wouldn't do the above just on my advice.  In particular, I'm not sure how risky going to ADR is from your point of view, but I assume you're sort of committed to that now as you've offered it, and he accepted ADR I think?  (And if it does get to ADR it might be helpful to know if you are allowed to indicate during that process that his potential criminal offences have been reported to TS.  I don't know if you'd be allowed to do that or not.)

 

The dealer does seem to have given away quite a bit of ground, but at the end of the day you may be happy with £1700 just to get over it and move on, and may not want to push him any further.

 

Don't just rely on me.  See what others think.

 

*I've no idea of appropriate timescales.  48 hrs?  72?  five days?  A week?

 

But if you make this threat - you have to carry it through...

Edited by Manxman in exile
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Aton - I see you've reacted to my post.  Note I've edited it since you read it.  I added the bit in asterisks about reasonable timescale.  Like I say don't just rely on me - see what others say too

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