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    • Any time limits AZ might spout are simply arbitrary, the ONLY thing you need to be doing is informing them ''in writing'' of your new address.   Also ensure your CRF is updated and showing your correct address also.   When you send AZ the letter which needs only to be one line......   Sir/madam.   My current address is No.1 Mickey mouse street blah blah blah, please update your records accordingly.   Regards   And obtain ''proof of posting'' which is free from the po counter, send it 2nd class post.
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    • Yes she is the sole owner of the house.   swift are horrific, they are so horrid and I am desperate to help her in any way!    I will get these forms completed and I am prepared to battle and fight if needed.    thanks so much talk soon. 
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Return of vehicle, distance sale


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get rid of the car and sue under a scottish claim for transportation costs.

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

 

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

 

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

 

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

 

 

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What does "TRADEFLAG  Trade" signify in the advert?  Is that meant to warn potential buyers that this is a trade sale only?  If so, does it have any effect?   Just to add on the OP's be

We do have a Scotland Financial Legal issues Forum which will give you plenty of advice re the Legal Position.   https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/371-scotland-financial-legal-issu

Unfortunately not, when I sent the template letter on the advice of the consumer advice despite being in email ping pong with them for 2 days about the fact I was reading legislation that he was in fa

6 hours ago, dx100uk said:

get rid of the car and sue under a scottish claim for transportation costs.

Get rid of the car? I'm not entirely sure what you mean. 

 

The long and short of it is, he has exponentially screwed up, not only illegally, but by lying on more than one occasion, he doesn't have a defence as if a judge looked at the evidence I'd 99.

99% win. I did everything I was supposed to, he has thus far avoided any responsibility for his actions. If it means going to court in brum of he wants to put in a defence, then so be it. 

 

If I do as you say, and I'm presuming here that you mean send the car back to him,  if he accepts it back he then has the car, my money for the car and I wouldn't just be filing for delivery then, would I?  I'd be filing for the cost of the car plus delivery.  Or do you mean sell the car to someone else? 

 

I think I'll take advice elsewhere as so far the advice I have had elsewhere agrees with the outcome I want, for him to collect the vehicle and refund me the money, as he is by law required to do. 

 

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On 24/09/2020 at 15:36, dx100uk said:

said it once i'll say it again - you agreed the sale verbally ...dead duck.

there is NO requirement for him to supply you with a cancellation form on durable medium (whatever that is)

 

 

 

Can I attempt to clarify what I think is a point of confusion between the OP and dx100?

 

What I think the OP is referring to is the general right to cancel a distance purchase within 14 days.  When the purchase is made, the vendor is obliged to provide certain information to the purchaser about their right to cancel in a durable medium.  An email or a piece of paper is a durable medium, but 'phone calls or links within websites (or links sent by email) are not.  If the vendor does not provide the required information in a durable medium, the usual 14 day cancellation period is extended up to a maximum of one year and 14 days.

 

My understanding is that one of the pieces of information that the vendor is required to provide in a durable medium is that the purchaser  will be reponsible for return costs if they cancel the order, and if a return by "normal" postage is not possible, the vendor needs to state what the return costs will be.

 

I think what the OP is trying to do here is to argue that they want to cancel the purchase and that because the vendor did not explain about their cancelation rights in a durable medium then, (i) the cancelation period is extended up to a maximum of 379 days, and (ii) the vendor is responsible for paying the return costs.

 

Anton2244 - is that what you are trying to argue?

 

Whether my understanding of this aspect of the "distance selling regulations" is correct and whether they apply in this case I won't comment.  Nor will I comment on whether this is the best approach for Anton2244 to take as he also seems to be under the mistaken impression that because no cancelation informatoin was given in a durable medium then "no contract" can exist...

 

 

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The pre contract information doesn't exist...therefore the first paragraph of your response applies in this case. My rights as a consumer still exist regardless, and the dealer was notified well within the 14 days of my request of a full return and for him to collect the vehicle. 

 

Thank you for your response,  I'm also a female not that it matters! 

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Sorry - need to put my glasses on!

 

I think you and the other posters have been at cross-purposes because they haven't followed what you are trying to argue.  You aren't arguing a fault etc with the car, you simply want to cancel it as a distance sale, and because the vendor did not provide the necessary cancellation information pre-contract in a durable medium, you are saying that you therefore have 12 months plus 14 days to cancel AND that the vendor has to pay the collection/recovery costs.

 

Although I understand that argument, I don't know if that's the best way to proceed or not.   I suspect not many people have tried to argue it with second-hand cars.  And that might be, for some reason I don't know, that it's a non-starter or it's too risky.

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It's the only way to proceed, he has to prove irrevocably that he gave me that information, and agreed to it, which he cannot do because it doesn't exist. Not only that, he sent me a trade sales invoice, other than that you're pretty spot on.

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it is not the only way to proceed and IMHO the wrong claim to raise, should you wish to raise one in an english court

 

if you really do want to raise the claim under consumer rights issues, i suggest you have a chat with TS again first and ask them if this is a good idea?

 

the pre contract info doesn't exist nor is applicable because you nor he ever entered into any contract covered by any consumer rights. he illegally sold you, a member of joe public, a car using a strictly traders only method.

 

i would hope TS point out the above and p'haps suggest you raise a different claim possibly encompassing this mis-sale and that you had no knowledge what he had ultimately done is illegal, nor that you ever agreed to do it anyway, as you now realise as a member of joe public, not a trader, you couldn't. you might even find TS will help, support and be involved with you in court regarding this too.

 

as it stands with cards on the table, he is under no obligation to pay for collection of the vehicle, you don't want to risk returning the car and never getting your moneyback - it's a stalemate where he is smiling still until you raise the correct claim.

 

although you have issued , 2 is it now, court warnings, it might be better to finally issue one correctly stating what you are going to do, then he might realise the penny has finally dropped and the game is up. there would be no harm in stating that to avoid such actions, should you pay me back by bank transfer the sum of the car and my initial transportation cost of xxxx, making £xxx in total by xxxxx date, i will not raise the claim.

 

The situation would then be far more serious for him and he might capitulate, inc refunding transportation costs, in the want of not being exposed in court, as there are numerous well publicised court cases whereby by traders have been hammered hard for pulling doing this scam on joe public.

 

another advantage of doing the above claim is you might get to keep the car for free, get all your moneyback.:pound:

 

 

 

 

 

 

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

 

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

 

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

 

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

 

 

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I haven't seen any legislation pertaining this, however because I have been looking at the consumer issues that may be why.

 

He has now had the final letter before action letter and read it several times, however in his first response on my second 14 day limit letter he raised the issue that his health isn't good at the moment, which I believe is another fallacy, cars are still being sold and added to his page on autotrader. 

 

If you could point me to the legislation you are referring to then that would be most helpful and welcome.

 

TS have seen the invoice, and passed this on to his local TS.

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On 24/09/2020 at 16:08, dx100uk said:

Misleading consumers by using phrases such as “Trade Sale – Sold as Seen” or “No Refunds” or issuing a trade invoice ....is not only illegal but also completely voids any contract implied or otherwise.

 

https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/dealership-fined-thousands-selling-unroadworthy-16776746

https://theusedcarguy.co.uk/car-scams/sold-as-seen-we-think-not/

https://www.theaa.com/car-buying/legal-rights

 

 

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

 

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

 

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

 

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

 

 

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Your appear to have missed the fact that as soon as I had agreed to buy the car,  put down a deposit etc a contract starts. However no pre contract information on cancellation etc was given on the durable medium I keep mentioning.

 

To follow, he gave me a trade sales invoice,  I notified the dealer 3 days afterwards of my request of a refund and a return.

 

y rights are extended to 12 months and 14 days,  this has been confirmed by TS.

 

He also has to bear the responsibility of collecting the car, it is available for him to collect any time he decides to pull his finger out.

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I see that the AA link in #59 is actually making the same argument as Aton2244 is making about cancelling a "distance sale" within 14 days (see after the subheading "Buying a used car online").

 

I know the OP hasn't bought online (at least I don't think she has) but it is at a "distance", and I know the article also doesn't mention the extended cancellation period, but I'm pretty sure it is a consumer protection and OP has already referenced it in an earlier post.

 

dx100uk - are you saying that the OP should ignore this aspect of consumer protection and rather go to Trading Standards and rely on them prosecuting the dealer for the "sold as seen" bit?  I agree that the problem the OP has going down the consumer rights route is actually getting their money back - but I'm not sure how TS do that for her?   I'm not sure what action it is being suggested she and/or TS takes?  Or I may have missed that.

 

(FYI - many, many years ago I was trainee TS inspector and one of the reasons I left was their general uselessness.  There were also too many hurdles and obstacles put in the way of consumers complaining about cross-border sales between two adjacent counties.  The general rule seemed to be to fob complainants off with excuses for not doing anything.  I can see immediate problems with a dealer in Birmingham and a complainant in Scotland.  But that was over 30 years ago so maybe things have improved by now... )

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5 minutes ago, Manxman in exile said:

go to Trading Standards and rely on them prosecuting the dealer for the "sold as seen" bit?

 

best bit of info on here yet..

the fact that money changed hands is immaterial to if/if not a contract was made.

which is why i'm saying there surely can be no reliance on any consumer rights.?

 

pers i'd be carefully explaining and confirming TS do really believe there is a guaranteed distance selling claim here or if thats the best way to go rather than total illegal mis-sale.

 

this is not a simple case that we see here like the rest of the vehicle issues we get , most are faulty and thats the reliance of the claim and most succeed.

 

this is very diff, with reliance upon mere speculation and assumption of what actually happen with little written records before it went pearshaped.

 

you can't cancel an assumed sales contract with a 14 days + 1yrs extension upon cancellation where there is no real proof one ever existed...and IMHO it would far more damaging to get him in court for illegally selling a car under a traders route to a known mrmber of joe public, and more likely to succeed too.

 

ask Trading Standards.

 

fed up with stating this,

 

dx

 

 

 

 

 

 

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

 

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

 

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

 

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

 

 

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i posted a link earlier and there are 100's of like cases whereby TS regions have taken on traders and won.

but, again, as i said, if the OP raises the case i'm sure TS would support it.

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

 

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

 

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

 

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

 

 

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So the OP goes to her (local?)* Trading Standards office, supplies them with all the details of the purchase, and asks for their advice and assistance in whatever way they can give to recover her money from the dealer?

 

I ask because in England it's almost impossible for a consumer to contact TS let alone get them to do anything.  It nearly always has to be done by first raising a complaint with Citizens' Advice and they then refer it to TS.  And then the consumer basically has no further interaction with TS unless they have to provide a statement or something.  But maybe it's different in Scotland.

 

I'm sure there are many examples of prosecutions by TS for this sort of thing, but do consumers get their money back?

 

I don't recall exactly where the OP is in this, but if I had been her I think my first move would have been to write to the dealer saying something like "I'm going to seek legal advice on this because I think that by selling to a member of the public a car with a receipt saying 'Trade Sale - Sold as Seen', you are actually guilty of committing a criminal offence" and see where that got me, and then proceeded accordingly.

 

(The most surprising thing about this thread is that it was the Motor Trade's Ombudsman's website in the first place that pointed out the possibility of an extended cancellation period for the purchaser on a distance sale!)

 

*What I'd be concerned about is that the OP's local TS office says "Nothing to do with us - contact Birmingham TS"  and they say "But you live in Scotland - nothing to do with our local authority, contact your own TS". 

 

But I suppose she'll only find out by asking them.  Can't do any harm.

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the OP has already done 90% of the above.

and are already in contact with TS over it.

 

dx

 

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

 

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

 

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

 

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

 

 

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@Manxman in exileSpot on again Sir, 

TS can only be referred to by ca or in my case advice Direct Scotland which is similar, they though cannot help me with the court proceedings however as far as I'm aware CA can and therefore I'm currently waiting to be appointed an advisor.

 

Understandably they are rather busy at the moment so it can take up to 2 weeks to get one assigned for assistance.

I did email TS on Thursday to enquire if there had been any developments, I am still awaiting a response. 

 

TS generally don't get involved with legal cases and told me to refer back to advice Direct...

You're very right when you say they are a bit useless and they certainly can't enforce a dealer to pay any money to me. 

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There was another poster (Hammy1962) who understood (#3) the distance selling point you were trying to make, but you may have inadvertantly put him off in your subsequent post.  He may still be following this thread.  Wonder if he has any ideas that could possibly help you? 

 

I'm concerned about how you continue if the TS route is not helpful...

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Yes I am still following the thread. 
 

The only thing I’m willing to add is that trading standards, or whatever they are called now, are utterly and completely useless. 
 

H

42 years at the pointy end of the motor trade. :eek:

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'It is very unlikely that Birmingham TS will get involved in your civil complaint, so best for you to follow Advice Direct Scotland’s advice.

 

If Birmingham are not interested in the criminal side, then I will discuss it with my manager and decide what action to take.'

 

that was the last I heard from my local TS, I will see if next week brings any further response. 

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This thread is starting to drone on and on.

The distance selling rules are clear and if the necessary information is not been provided then it's correct that there is 12 months to reject the vehicle for any reason. In addition to that, there may be a breach of contract as regards the condition of it – but I'm not sure that we have been told what is wrong with the vehicle. Maybe @Aton2244 would like to tell us?

Additionally, @Aton2244 seems to be completely hung up on their legal entitlement and also the apparent power of trading standards to sort it out.

The legal entitlement is not in doubt. Once again I'm going to say that trading standards will not be able to do anything – partly because they don't have the resources – partly because they think that they are fitted for higher things than an individual case of somebody who bought a cheap second-hand car at long distance. I'm sorry but the role of trading standards nowadays has become some thing like an urban legend.

As I said at the beginning of this discussion – about three weeks ago, we have to think of the practicalities. The rights of clear and it's up to the OP who decide to take the action which we will be pleased to help with.

The problem of course will be one of enforcement and I've made this clear as well.

I agree that it's a risk that the vehicle could be returned without the money being refunded. I don't know the answer to this. If there is some kind of stand-off about who is going to pay for the transportation costs then this seems to me to be ridiculous if that is the only thing in the way. I almost get an impression that both parties think that it's a matter of pride that the other should be made to pay for the transportation costs.
If that's what it is then it becomes a stumbling block to sorting out the whole problem.

This thread is developing into some aimless discussion thread that is becoming repetitive and really should be moved to Facebook where that kind of thing happens

 

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If you believe  it is starting to drone on then I suggest, you don't read it? I was referred to TS as you can't directly raise an issue with them, so having had contact from my local TS on the issue of the invoice, which they stated was a legal/criminal issue, I am now awaiting to see what his local TS are going to do re that. 

 

I'm not sure why I would have to disclose what is wrong with the vehicle, because that is irrelevant under the 14 day right to cancel (extended by 12 months). No reason needed.

 

Again I repeat,  I am not paying for the return of the vehicle because I am not required to do so! 

 

Perhaps this thread might help another who find themselves in a similar predicament,  but by all means delete it if you wish. 

 

 

I have also stated that I am awaiting to be assigned someone from Citizens advice to help me with the issue of bringing it to court, so no I am not hung up on TS "power" to sort it out. 

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It's a shame that you won't so assertive and cautious when you bought the car. You might not have found yourself with this problem

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