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    • Thank you for your response.   No, I have not paid for any additional insurance.   What I have done until now is to raise a loss claim with Packlink. They have confirmed “the shipment as subject to tampering” and I got a refund of 25 GBP plus 2.89 GBP for the postage charge, which I’m waiting to receive.   So based on your suggestions I assume I will need to raise a formal complaint with Hermes now and update you once I get a response. I have already started educating myself on the matter while waiting for a reply but I certainly have a long way to go. I am wondering how it is still possible for Hermes to be operating in the UK having created similar issues to so many people. I would have never thought items go missing like this.
    • I hope you mean I try to help people stand up to bullying - and not do the bullying!   I'll assume it's a compliment!     Well - that sort of demonstrates that you've not understood my point and (perhaps?) haven't actually read the OP?   My point is that it is not the boyfriend (the supposed "owner" of the car park) who is posting, but his girlfriend who believes that he "owns" his car parking space.  Yes - it usually makes sense to believe that what the OP is posting is the truth, but in this case there is every reason to believe that there is a possibility that the OP might be mistaken about her boyfriend's ownership of the parking space, because...  well, how would she know for sure whether he does or not?  He might be boasting or lying or simply mistaken.  (My understanding is that many people who "own" flats are often under the mistaken apprehension that they "own" a parking space when they don't.  All the more reason then that somebody else other than the "owner" might be even more mistaken).   I suppose what I'm getting at is that I was a bit surprised that both you and dx100uk were able to give such definite and certain answers to the OP without exploring her situation a bit more fully and ensuring that she fully and correctly understood her boyfriend's rights in respect of the parking space in question.  I was simply concerned that without getting more information from the OP, then the replies given to her might prove to be less than useful.  I wouldn't want her to leave thinking that there was absolutely nothing to worry about and then find out there was because she'd been misadvised because she didn't understand whether her BF "owned" the space or not.   Of course, it may be that my concern here makes absolutely no difference to the answer that needs to be given to the OP because it doesn't matter whether her boyfriend actually "owns" the parking space or not, which is fine.  But sometimes I think it would be helpful to the OP (and other readers like myself) if some of these legal niceties could be spelled out rather than left unexplained.    
    • I've spoken to my son in law and because the gearbox can be very expensive to repair, he would prefer to reject the car.   The garage isn't going to charge storage at the moment.   I feel they have been mislead regarding the service history.   How difficult would it be to get the finance company on our side in rejecting the car and sending back to the dealer?
    • The first thing to say is that you better go ahead and refund the buyer because otherwise she will end up getting negative feedback as well. We will try and help you get your money back from Hermes. Have you made a formal claim through Hermes and have they formally declined you and giving you reasons why? Presumably the item was properly declared and properly valued when the delivery was booked. You don't say whether or not you took out their so-called insurance. Please start off by reading around the sub- forum focusing particularly on the Hermes threats. There are lots of them. Get to understand the principles in respect of the arguments – the insurance element, your third party rights despite the fact that you booked it through Packlink. Have a look at other people's experiences of having sued Hermes, the process of issuing the claim, the defence, the mediation and have a close look at the advice that we give about how to handle mediation. It's highly likely that you will have to issue claim papers so also read around to understand the steps you need to take to bring a small claim in the County Court. It's straightforward but understanding the steps will make you far more confident about what you are doing. Have you started a formal complaint against Hermes and Packlink?
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Good afternoon,
 
I am looking for a bit of clarity on a couple of legislations, namely consumer rights and consumer contracts. I have sought advice from consumer advice Scotland but unsure if the generic advice they have given me applies to my circumstances.
 
I purchased a car from a car dealer on autotrader (have a copy of the advert and how it was described) offering nationwide delivery.
Because his delivery cost was extortionate he said if I wanted to buy it I could arrange an independent transporter.
I searched shiply and found someone who would do it for a third of the price the dealer would.
 
A few revelations about the car maybe needing a new clutch and strut I managed to get roughly 130 off the asking price.
I paid a deposit and he took the advert down, at no time did he email / message any contractual information.
Fast forward a few days later and the car being delivered,
 
I noticed he had written on the invoice,
sold as spares/renovation customer advised and happy took accept.
At no point was i ever advised of this and the invoice appears to be a trade sales invoice too.
There are other issues with the car too
 
I have read from the motor ombudsman site,
I am under no obligation to give him any reasons why I wish to return if I notify the dealer within 14 days, extended to 12 months and 14 days as no contract was given about rights etc.
 
I would like the car returned and having read through an endless barrage of legislation believe that the dealer is responsible for the pick up of the car because of the omission of any contract.
 
I have not signed anything, the independent transporter signed the invoice of which I was unaware of until such time I saw it.
When he notified me he was there to load the car and for me to pay the remainder of the balance and said he was signing paperwork I didn't ask him what it was as I presumed it would be a check sheet saying if there was any damage to the car etc.
 
I didn't see the car until the day after delivery as it had been delivered to my father's address, and upon reading the legislation told the car dealer on the Friday I wanted a refund and for him to collect the car.
 
I have since sent the dealer a template written by the consumer advice with 14 days to respond, but they are adamant I am to pay the return cost and claim it back under damages under common law in Scotland.
 
Would appreciate if someone could advise further as it doesn't tie in with the legislation i have read
 
Thank you in advance
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What does "TRADEFLAG  Trade" signify in the advert?  Is that meant to warn potential buyers that this is a trade sale only?  If so, does it have any effect?   Just to add on the OP's be

We do have a Scotland Financial Legal issues Forum which will give you plenty of advice re the Legal Position.   https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/371-scotland-financial-legal-issu

Unfortunately not, when I sent the template letter on the advice of the consumer advice despite being in email ping pong with them for 2 days about the fact I was reading legislation that he was in fa

tough 

if he wants his car, he has to get it.

 

have you got your money for it back?

 

dx

 

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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DSR, extended to 12 Months and 14 Day's...........................................

 

This should be interesting.

 

H

42 years at the pointy end of the motor trade. :eek:

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Unfortunately not, when I sent the template letter on the advice of the consumer advice despite being in email ping pong with them for 2 days about the fact I was reading legislation that he was in fact bound to collect the vehicle because no contract was given, they were adamant that I would be able to claim it back under damages under Scottish Common Law. 

 

He was quick to respond to the template email and said they would reply in due course but if I wished to discuss over the phone they were happy to do so, I keep telling him I will only accept written correspondence through email so I then have evidence should it need to go through mediation/small claims.

 

Thank you for your reply 

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how did you pay for the car?

have you got your moneyback?
 

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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1 hour ago, dx100uk said:

how did you pay for the car?

have you got your moneyback?
 

No money back, paid by bank transfer,  only alternative he gave me was PayPal and I don't do PayPal.

 

1 hour ago, Hammy1962 said:

DSR, extended to 12 Months and 14 Day's...........................................

 

This should be interesting.

 

H

 

 

Dsr  no longer exists.  It's been amalgamated with 

The Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013

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You haven't told us how much you paid for the vehicle. I understand that you are probably in Scotland – where else in the country did you buy the vehicle from?

Of course what you are being told about in terms of the applicable law is correct – and you should certainly make sure that you have sent a letter by registered guaranteed next day delivery rejecting the car on the basis of the distance selling rules. If you haven't done that now then do it immediately. In the letter make it clear that you are confirming your rejection of the goods which you made on X X X date.

Now down to the practicalities.

You have a car sitting outside your home or in your driveway and unfortunately it looks to me as if you are going to be saddled with it for some time unless you start taking a realistic view. If the dealer refuses to refund you then you are burdened with the vehicle and also out of pocket and you will have to start a legal action to recover the money.

If instead you ship the car back at your own expense – then presumably you will be refunded your money and then you will be able to bring an action for any other expenses you have suffered. Although this is a nuisance, at least it scales the problem down to a more manageable size and of course you no longer have the problem of a car sitting outside your home.

How much do you pay?

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Also, you haven't told us who the dealer is

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I paid £1850,  £200 deposit and £1650 when the transporter (another £361) picked the vehicle up, I am so confused with legislation,  I am reading on the govt website on contract law that because no contract was given to me on durable medium then the trader is responsible for the return costs

 

 Apologies, the dealer is evolve cars based in Birmingham,  he only appears to be on the autotrader website, and later last check he has 94 5 star reviews

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Yes, the dealer is responsible – but if you stand by your legal rights then it will just become a much more difficult problem to solve. If you get rid of the car then you reduce the problem to the cost of transportation plus interest.

What is the cost of transporting the car back?
How far is Birmingham away from you?

 

Evolve Cars don't seem to have a website.

Also, I'm afraid that the number of stars et cetera on auto trader is really no great guide. We found with quite a number of car dealers that these reviews tend to be manipulated

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We are aware of the legislation. But you aren't addressing the point I'm making.

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Thank you. You still haven't told me how far it is away from you.

It's up to you, if the dealer really wants to be intransigent then you can keep the car in your driveway and sue for the refund of the money – and you could probably add a reasonable storage charge. Chances of success are much better than 95%. However, bringing county court action is a slow business nowadays – and you will have to pay a court fee – and then an allocation fee if the dealer decides to push you to a hearing. I understand that you are in Scotland – although you still haven't addressed this point. I understand that you are probably some distance away – although you haven't responded to this question either.
I'm not sure whether this would be considered to be a Scottish case to be held in Scotland – assuming that that is where you are (although you haven't answered) or an English case in which case it would be heard in England and if there was a hearing you might have to travel there.

So you will be bringing an action for over £2000. On the other hand, if you ship the car back then assuming that the dealer did refund you, then you would merely be suing for the transportation costs plus interest.

A much smaller problem to deal with. Much cheaper in terms of court fees although the question of Scottish or English jurisdiction would still arise.

Also, you wouldn't have an unwanted lump of metal sitting in your front drive for anything up to 6 months or nine months if the dealer really wanted to string it out

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Apologies again, that's the legislation i also quoted to consumer advice to be absolutely clear he was responsible for the return costs but they said I was responsible to pay for it at my own cost and therefore that has been what has been sent to the dealer. 

 

He has read the email and responded and said if I wanted to discuss it over the phone they would be happy to,  but as yet no reply to the email after i again reaffirmed I wanted all correspondence in writing 

 

423 miles from Aberdeen to Birmingham,  although it is sat outside my father's address as this was where the car was delivered to some 12 miles from my address.

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Thank you.

 

Assuming that you can't persuade the dealer to carry out his proper responsibilities, then you have to decide whether you want to hang onto the vehicle until it's collected, or get rid of it and then pursue him for the cost of transportation.

It's a decision you need to make between you and your father. I have to say that my view is that scaling the problem down from about £2000 to about £350 – it's a no-brainer but it's up to you

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Thank you for your help,  the problem is I have already sent the template from consumer advice stating that I am in the process of returning the vehicle. My father is under the impression I should be refunded when the vehicle gets collected, I told him that's not how the law works unfortunately.

 

I mean, I have said to the dealer that I would have preferred the amicable and faster route to resolve the matter, and if he would agree to refund me then I suppose I wouldn't be here asking for advice. 

 

I also am worried that should I return at my cost he has the money for the car, and the car... and it'll have cost the bones of between 7-8 hundred to get the vehicle transported both ways.

 

I presume I can also claim for the delivery costs to have it delivered? The dealer quoted over £900! Nearly half of what the car was advertised as.

 

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Yes I'd forgotten about the costs of bringing the car up to you. I think that will probably not be recoverable because this is something that you decided on and wasn't part of the original deal. However, I would include it as part of your claim.

If you decide to bring a claim in respect of this then I would be seeing not only on the distance selling regulations but also on the fact that he vary the contract after it was made and that you would not have bought a motorcar for scrap.

I quite agree that it is a problem that you could lose the car and the money. I'm not sure how to guarantee that the money will be paid over.

I want to make an observation now that you probably won't be happy with – but anyway, it is that the very least for the sake of other people who read the thread.

We have a very large number of people on this forum who have problems with second-hand car dealers when buying used cars – especially use cars which are pretty cheap. £1850 is very cheap.

The problem is exacerbated by people purchasing cars over long distances. I would say that almost every used car problem we have on this forum involves a rather cheap vehicle which has been purchased two or three or 400 miles away so that not only is there the problem of collecting the vehicle, there is also the problem of taking it back – and if it breaks down there is also the problem of getting it back to the dealer for repairs.

For some reason rather people see an old car being advertised in Autotrader or somewhere else and regardless of the distance away and all the logistical problems if it goes wrong et cetera, they treat it as if it's the best thing since sliced bread and the only good used car bargain in the entire country.
This is always a recipe for disaster.

We've been helping someone recently who lives in Scotland and bought a car in Surrey. Travelled 500 miles to collect the car and then 500 miles back. Then the car started causing problems and he took the car back again another 500 miles and picked up a replacement and drove back 500 miles. The replacement started causing trouble and he had to drive back 500 miles again to return it – and then there was an issue over the refund of money.

You bought the car for £1850. You paid getting on for £400 to have a transported so in fact the car has cost you £2150 and if it turned out to have some faults then you would be obliged to either drive it back get it back to Birmingham in order to get it repaired – or if not you would have to have it repaired in Scotland at your own expense.

I don't know if this seems like good value to you but I can't believe that there aren't excellent used vehicles much closer to you and not accompanied by all these additional expenses and additional problems.

I don't know how remote an area you live in in Scotland but by and large I would caution against buying any used car outside a 25 or 30 mile radius.

I hope you will at the very least send the letter that I suggested rejecting the car by special delivery – tomorrow.

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I have already sent the letter of rejection via email, he has already responded to it and says he will respond to the contents of it in due course.

 

I completely understand where you are coming from on the distance, the current car i am driving I travelled down to Peterborough for, good cheap cars are few and far between up this way,  being the oil capital things are priced fairly differently. 

 

The car I purchased ceased to be made after the end of 2006 and as a car enthusiast I have had my mind set on getting one for the last couple of years. I'm not particularly a fan of modern cars per say, to me they all look samey. Had I not had a 3 year old to consider who has additional needs, I would have made the journey down there myself, and in all honesty I'd probably not have come home with it! I still have all copy of the advert and I'm sure if you read it you'd agree it sounded great. 

 

Trading standards are also on the case and a copy of the invoice has been sent to them. Unfortunately the man dealing with it is on annual leave until the 14th. At no time was any contract given to or signed by myself on any durable medium. 

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I'm sure that the ad did sound great – but it would be amazing if somebody placed an ad which sounded awful. Some afraid that really doesn't say anything at all.

I'm afraid that trading standards will do nothing. They don't have the resources and they're not interested in this kind of complaints which they hear all the time. If you set your hopes by them then I'm afraid you are cruising for a bad disappointment in addition to the problem of the car.

If you want this car so badly because it is special in some way then another solution might be to get an estimate for repairing all the defects and then suing the dealer for that money if you won't come across with it.
Of course you have to have a good explanation for not returning it to him because normally speaking you would have to give the dealer an opportunity to repair it.

I understand very well indeed that you are a car enthusiast – but probably this may be stretching your enthusiasm to the limit. Certainly I note that you say that if you had seen the vehicle you would never have brought it back with you.

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And by the way, bank transfer is almost always fatal. If the dealer insisted on bank transfer then they should have alarm bells ringing loud and clear.

Another precaution one can take if buying a car at a long distance like this is to get an independent inspection – maybe by the AA or someone. Although this means an extra outlay, you can probably then proceed with the purchase with some confidence. Also, you wouldn't have the problem of the dealer suddenly changing the contract after it had been made and not having any evidence of the original contract – although the dealers advertisement is probably good enough.

It sounds to me as if the dealer has been thoroughly dishonest with you – and you are right to be worried about what might happen to your refund if the vehicle is returned.

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Just to get the terminology right. There was a contract. You don't need to have a contract in writing for there to be a binding agreement. What is being said is that all the notification requirements et cetera required to bring the distance rules into play were not abided by.

I shall be very pleased if trading standards really you take an interest – but I have to say that on our experience here, it's very unlikely. If it happens though please let us know

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Many thanks again for your response, 

 

I understand that pre-contract information has to be given to the consumer on the basis for return/repairs etc on a durable medium, it does indeed according to the trading standards and also consumer advice have to be written, and as it wasn't no contract was binding,  hence why I'm here to clarify on no uncertain terms whether the dealer or myself is responsible for the return cost.

 

According to the motor ombudsman;  

Off-premises” / distance sale – The Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013, defines a distance sale to be a contract where the purchase of the goods is conducted “off-premises”, such as an online purchase. In an “off-premises”/distance sale, the customer has 14 days after delivery of the goods to cancel the order.

 

If the business does not inform the consumer of their 14-day right to cancel, then the consumer will have up to 12 months after delivery of the goods to cancel the order. Additionally the consumer does not need to provide a reason for cancelling.

 

 

additionally because it is a trade sales invoice I have received and I am a member of the public, this is also another issue my local trading standards will pass to the local office of the dealer,  that is another strike against him.  

 

 

 

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I don't think there's anything more we can say. You understand the situation and the options and now it is for you to make choices

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