Goosedale WEDDING VENUE REFUSING REFUND *** Settled by Tomlin Order***

[BazzaS]

OK.

 

clarity needed : a series of yes/no answers.

 

a) Have you agreed a draft Tomlin Order?

(The wording of both the Order and Schedule must be agreed)

 

If so,

b) has it gone to the Court?

if so

c) Has the Court responded??

 

if the situation is:

a) yes, b) yes, c) yes :

d) what response has the court (not the mediator, the Court) issued?

 

If “no” to a), you can say “unfortunately agreement on the detail not reached, mediation failed, please let the case go to trial”

Edited July 10, 2021 by BazzaS

[intree]

A) No we attended a directions hearing at which we were told try and reach a settlement, which the other side gave figures and we were advised to settle.

 

B) The Deputy Judge confirmed the matter was resolved by a Tomlin order and the two points were confirmed to us which were   £0000 FIGURE AND THE CONFIDENIALITY

 

C)we have nothing else and left the hearing just as confused as yourself, and posted up here as we had just about had enough.

 

D) Court gave them 21 days to make payment then commended them for settling????

 

We are just as confused !! Is this Justice

[intree]

we dont know what justice means anymore thats the honest truth!!

 

Any advice appreciated as confirmed we have agreed in the Court to Settle as above, agreed in front of the Deputy District Judge at the Hearing,  but also confirm that we had no knowledge of what a Tomlin order was and it appears The Judge agreed to the two terms and the payment within 21 days, but we will now await the Order, the Transcript was requested for the telephone hearing he advised it was recorded, but also confirmed we could not record or make notes etc, hence the request for the Transcript ! 

 

 

[BazzaS]

I am confused.

 

Did you agree (in front of the DJ, at the directions hearing) the terms of the Consent Order (the order and any Schedule).

If so,  has the case been dismissed, or more likely stayed as long as the TO is complied with?

 

If the latter, the company’s options are:

a) pay up, or

b) believe that the term(s) of the TO have been breached, they don’t pay,

 

and then the case should proceed to be heard (though there is the risk you lose at trial)

 

As for “is this justice” : it is.

If you agree a Consent Order, it is “just”, as you don’t have to agree. You can decline it and it go to trial (though often, even if won at trial, people don’t always get everything they want, so it doesn’t always “feel like justice”)

If it is the case that the details of the  TO needed to be finalised, and they haven’t / “now can’t”, : advise the court, and ask for the stat to be lifted.

Edited July 10, 2021 by BazzaS

[intree]

On 10/07/2021 at 09:50, BazzaS said:

I am confused.

 

Did you agree (in front of the DJ, at the directions hearing) the terms of the Consent Order (the order and any Schedule). Yes No schedule the order was as above - which were the 1) figure 2)confidentiality and 3)payment by

30/07

If so,  has the case been dismissed, or more likely stayed as long as the TO us complied with? he stated if they dont pay by the agreed date they will get a judgement against them

 

If the latter, the company’s options are:

a) pay up, or

b) believe that the term(s) of the TO have been breached, they don’t pay,

 

 

 

i NEVER POSTED anything up yesterday as I was told its confidential, but I am advised I can take advice and this is not illegal or breaking the terms of the Tomlin order is this correct can I post these matters here

 

Edited August 23, 2021 by dx100uk
formatting

[intree]

Please can any posts which contravene the Confidentiality be removed as I dont want another issue to be raised by them, when all I trying to understand how the process works, and seek legal advice from the Forum.

 

Thank you

 

[BazzaS]

See what others say, but as a way forward why not :

 

”Go back to the firm.

 

let them know that your understanding is that a Tomlin Order [TO]  (and the Court ordering a claim stayed as a result) would become part of the court record : and isn’t confidential.

 

Any Schedule to the TO can be confidential (such as the amount settled for!), and since you haven’t revealed this info : “no breach of confidence”.

 

You are a LIP, so unsurprising you need advice on the details of the TO process, getting the exact wording agreed. If they prefer you to get professional legal advice (rather than posting!) : they can pay as part of the settlement.

 

If they feel this is unfair / outside of what was agreed - let the court claim continue (& you can then bring the disputed documents to the court’s attention again)

[intree]

Thank you so much BazzaS I will wait for them to contact me then advise the above to them.

 

can they force me to remove these postings on the Forum as this is what they wanted the order to state, but this was not made, the only two items agreed were the confidentiality and the payment by date, the rest it appears they will try and include this, I will of course seek legal advice here.

 

I will of course await further advice from all members as before before I respond to any letters from them as I have no legal advice and this forum is my main advisor, in this matter to date.

 

Edited July 10, 2021 by intree

[BazzaS]

Added for sake of clarity.

 

A schedule to a TO might include “confidentiality”, but this could mean

 

a: no disclosure of the exact details of the settlement, but there being a TO isn’t confidential or

b: no disclosure of there being a court case and there being a settlement

 

The firm seem to expect this to be b)

 

Your position should be that since the court’s judgment(s) become part of a public record, the TO itself isn’t confidential but the Schedule to a TO allows details to be confidential, that the true position is a).

 

Edited to add :

We’ve posted in parallel

 

Tell them the details re: confidentiality ( “a) or b)” ) weren’t laid out in detail.

You are happy for it to go back to the DJ, and hope they’d agree a) rather than b)

i) as you are an LiP, so can be expected to take advice, and they haven’t  offered to pay for formal legal advice, and

ii) the “matter of public record” argument that it is just the Schedule that would be confidential

Edited July 10, 2021 by BazzaS

[intree]

Thank you BazzaS I will let them write to me and wait for the Order from the Court and raise the above.

 

I expect the Court to confirm this and then the payment to be made by the date agreed, so until i get the Order I have no formal understanding of what they confirmed as to the points raised I will of course seek further legal advice and keep the Tomlin order confidential and not disclose these.

 

 

Edited July 10, 2021 by intree

[BazzaS]

You could point out the disagreement as to the detail of what each understands” by “confidential”

 

You can point out the “matter of public record” issue (and the TO becoming part of the court record, while the Schedule isn’t)

 

You can point out that if they disagree it’ll likely proceed to trial, and if they lose at trial they’ll have no chance of ANY confidentiality.

 

The effect of these is that it is unlikely they’ll get what they seem to want: “the fact there was a disagreement as to their obligation to refund” to disappear from public view. Thus it is in their interest to conclude it was interpretation a) and they

i) should settle the sum agreed, and

ii) That’ll remove your need to seek further

 advice (as an LiP)  on the details of the TO process.

 

I wouldn’t mention the Streisand Effect, but hopefully they’ll be aware of it

(I doubt this whole process is doing their public image any favours: Goosedale!) 

 

Then over to them. they choose to pay (whatever sum agreed, the details of which are indeed confidential!), or it goes back to court.

Edited July 10, 2021 by BazzaS

[intree]

Thank you so much BazzaS now I feel a bit more relaxed and confident to take this further if need be, I will wait for all advice, I will take further legal advice from the Forum as this matter is concerning to say the least, Now that I understand what a Tomlin Order is and as detailed by you BazzaS, thank you so much.

 

if they pay up as agreed the matter is closed if not then we will take further advice and post up what if any Order we get from the Court, we agree that the Court order is a public record.

[BankFodder]

A Tomlin order is an agreement between the parties which is also known as a "consent" agreement. It basically records the terms of whatever has been decided between the parties and then it goes to a judge to be signed off.

The Tomlin order will lay a timescale – generally speaking a deadline by which the agreed settlement must be executed and will then go on to say that once the agreement is properly executed, the claimant will discontinue the claim. If the agreement is not executed then the claimant is at liberty to return to the court and asked for judgement.  It would be open to put into the agreement that the claimant could also then go on to proceed for the full amount which was originally claimed if the settlement agreement is for less than that.

The agreement has to be drafted between the parties. Then put before the court to be signed off at which point it becomes binding.

I haven't followed this thread well enough to know whether the other side is represented or they are also litigants in person.
Whatever, I think it's important now to make a detailed note of what you believe has been agreed and provided to the other side and it would be in their interests as well to do the same thing. I understand that they are reading this thread so there's a big hint for them. It's important to show that they are being cooperative and that you also are being cooperative and willing.

It's important to establish a paper trail so that if the other side – or indeed if you – are being obstructive then you can show the paper trail to the court to explain why the Tomlin order has not been signed off as agreed and you can then ask for further measures from the judge.

So I would begin by setting out in a bullet pointed fashion everything that has been agreed between you. Send it to the other side. They should do the same thing.

You can then identify the points in common. Hopefully there won't be any disagreements over any points but if there are then these need to be resolved and it should be done by written discussion.

I would suggest that you email the other side immediately and tell them that you are preparing to set out what you believe has been agreed and you are alerting them to the fact that they will probably receive this next week on, say, Tuesday and that you look forward to receiving the same thing from them so that you can hammer out the basis of the Tomlin order.

Once again, it's very important that you show that you have been hugely proactive and that you are bending over backwards to finalise the Tomlin order in order to bring an end to the litigation to save time and trouble to everyone.
The defendant should be doing the same thing.

 

[BazzaS]

I concur with BF. 
keep good notes.

Try (where possible) to be the epitome of reasonableness.

 

 

[BazzaS]

Posted separately (so it can’t look like I’m “trying to put words in BF’s mouth”)

 

You can be seen to be reasonable without having to agree with them that you can’t ever discuss ANY aspect of the case. 

[BankFodder]

1 minute ago, BazzaS said:

Posted separately (so it can’t look like I’m “trying to put words in BF’s mouth”)

 

You can be seen to be reasonable without having to agree with them that you can’t ever discuss ANY aspect of the case. 

Not quite sure what this means – but certainly you must not discuss any of the details of the settlement. Simply the logistics of preparing the Tomlin order.

[intree]

Thank you so Much BazzaS and BankFodder I am reading everything we have agreed to settle and if they wish to impose new terms into what we thought was what the Judge agreed in front of us then we will be back in the forum as we are just as dismayed as to the whole matter as the Forum.

 

The Defendant has been represented since January 2021 they state by DFW and had a barrister at the hearing yesterday, so they are represented even though he admitted documents himself, he was also very rude to me and condescending and the Jude said nothing at all, we are again concerned but just want to close the matter and move on if they allow us to now!!

[intree]

3 minutes ago, BankFodder said:

Not quite sure what this means – but certainly you must not discuss any of the details of the settlement. Simply the logistics of preparing the Tomlin order.

If I have inadvertently posted anything which contravenes this please can this be removed as I am just trying to understand what a Tomlin Order is and how this has been actioned by the Court?

[BankFodder]

If he is represented then it would be fairly normal for them to take charge of the drafting of the consent order.

For the moment, though, I suggest that you research Tomlin order is on the Internet. There's lots of information – but in particular, you follow the advice that I've given above about writing to them and being as proactive as possible.

If you feel that they are introducing any new terms into the settlement then you should make sure that you point this out to them in writing and you explain your objections in writing and do everything you can to reach an agreement – but make sure it's all in writing so if push comes to shove, the judge will see that you have been resolutely cooperative and that any problems have been caused by the other side.

Hopefully they have had enough of this as well and they will now start to be a bit less obstinate and act a bit more reasonably and they will join with you in reaching a settlement with the emphasis on the word "join".

[BazzaS]

26 minutes ago, intree said:

If I have inadvertently posted anything which contravenes this please can this be removed as I am just trying to understand what a Tomlin Order is and how this has been actioned by the Court?

I doubt you have posted anything you shouldn’t.

 

Just because Goosedale might hope (in vain) that this whole thing would *magically disappear* 

a) my understanding is that posts only get removed if they breach site rules, or there is an over-riding need (& can’t see that here!, though I’m not part of the Site Team)

b) the fact there was a court case & (if the TO process succeeds) that it concluded by TO will be in the public record

c) As an LiP (& consumer, not a business), if they haven’t offered to pay for formal legal advice for you re: the TO, it isn’t unreasonable for you to seek advice here on the TO process.

[intree]

Thank you BankFodder and BazzaS I will write up and then post the email as advised by BF to the other side here tomorrow and send this to them on Monday on the following lines, unless you ask me to change which I will 

 

I would suggest that you email the other side immediately and tell them that you are preparing to set out what you believe has been agreed and you are alerting them to the fact that they will probably receive this next week on, say, Tuesday and that you look forward to receiving the same thing from them so that you can hammer out the basis of the Tomlin order.

 

Dear XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

your client ;

 

We refer to the Tomlin Order and have now obtained advice in this matter,

1.  can confirm that the contents of the Tomlin order will remain Confidential at all Times
2. The Order of the Court is a Public document as the Hearing was recorded and a transcript available
3. You will pay the Sum agreed within 21 Days.
4. Failure to pay the amount at the agreed time will then make the claim live again and will will proceed to Court
5. Costs we incur in addition to raising the matter and dealing with this claim be claimed in addition.
6. We do not and have not agreed to any further matters unless mentioned here.

 

Finally we confirm that these are the only terms we agreed at the Hearing and based on the legal advice obtained we hope that the matter is now closed and concluded, we can also confirm that we may need to seek further legal advice and or Court directions if we are unable to agree to the Tomlin order as made, we ask that if you wish this legal advice to be private then you pay for independent legal advice as we are litigants in person and in any event we are obliged to save costs and time and proceed to obtain advice from the Consumer Action Group who are our legal advisors and you are aware of them fully.

 

We await your settlement and confirmation of the above, if the matter is not resolved within the times allowed we reserve the right to proceed to Court and the full hearing for which we will have to now incur costs, however we hope this matter will not be complicated by you or your clients further.

 

We expect a response to the above and payment within the time allowed failing which we will remove our consent to the Tomlin Order as we could not agree a way forward.

 

kind regards

 

Claimants

[intree]

I will await further advice before I submit the letter as I am not sure if I am to await the Court Order first I can redraft above once advised thank you.

[AndyOrch]

Hi intree

 

Just checking in as we have not heard from you for a while.... to see if you have now received the refund and that monies have cleared successfully. ?

 

Andy