CEL ANPR PCN PAPLOC now Claimform - Morrisons, Butterfly Walk Car Park Denmark Hill Camberwell, London SE5 8RW - paid-did not enter Reg No - POPLA rejected appeal

[yewneik]

Hi all,

 

Wish I had found this place sooner as have obviously stuck my foot in it proceeding with appeals, hoping I might be able to get some advice anyhow.

 

I received a parking ticket for the car park outside of Morrisons in Camberwell, London, as I didn't think parking was that technical, I ignored the signage, proceeded into Morrisons, got change, came back out, put £2 in the machine and thought nothing of it. I then spent £10 in store to redeem my parking charge and went about life thinking nothing more about it.

 

I then received a £100 as it turns out you need to input your registration number, I obviously didn't keep my parking ticket so evidently I'm shafted.

 

I appealed via the CE website, stating the above, which was rejected, and then again to POPLA which has again been rejected (this time showing my bank statement with an £8 charge at Morrisons).

 

Citezens advice say I could go to small claims over the ticket, but with a lack of evidence and no response from Morrisons I'm a bit buggered.

 

Does any one have any advice on how I should proceed, or should I pay the £100 and never frequent a car park of this nature again?

 

Just very crappy timing to have had to Pay £102 to go to Morrisons.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

DM

 

 

[FTMDave]

I've changed the thread title as it's not a fine, and it's important to know the difference when taking on these fleecers.

 

You have a great chance of seeing off CEL.

 

So you haven't kept the parking ticket.  What about a receipt from Morrisons, is there anywhere where £10 - £2 parking charge paid = £8 is shown?

 

In supermarket cases we generally advise to get on to the supermarket head office, show you were a genuine customer and demand they cancel the fleecers' invoice.

[yewneik]

Thanks for correctly labelling my post, apologies, first time on the site.

 

Alas no, I have no documentation stating I purchased a ticket, my only hope would be getting the CCTV from Morrisons. I could follow up to see if they could confirm my purchase? Bank statement shows nothing except "£8 at a Morrisons"

 

Unfortunately the only response I got back from Morrisons, was a 'sorry it's nothing to do with us email'. Which was charming.

[lookinforinfo]

Welcome to the Forum.

Don't be too despondent, there is more than one way to skin a cat and these parking companies usually make more mistakes than motorists which is bad news for them.

 

You paid so they would have had your money in the machine without a corresponding registration number at the end of the day. 

Even if you didn't enter the reg. number, they still have to comply with several Laws and Regulations before they manage to form a contract with motorists.

 

As they are more concerned with ripping off motorists than complying with Laws, they are usually pretty easily beaten.

 

To help us come up with all the reasons why they shouldn't get a penny from you could you please complete the questions below.

 

Could you please post up the PCN you received.

I don't expect you will have the next one which is the Notice to Keeper as your appeal would probably have shown that you were the driver, but if you have, please post that up also.

 

Photographs of the signs are really a must, especially the one at the entrance and the blurb on the ticket machine

 as well as signage around the car park -ones that have different rules than the entrance ones are great.

 

Also these parking crooks rarely bother to get permission from the Council to erect their signs and cameras'

This means that the signs should not be there and so cannot offer a contract with the motorist.

 

Most Councils have a website for their planning department which often just require the postcode to be inserted in the search area.

Do not be surprised if nothing relevant appears.

 

.

 

[yewneik]

228_image_plans.pdf

[dx100uk]

thread tidied

 

please complete this:

https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/391121-have-you-received-a-parking-ticket/

[yewneik]

Sorry for the errors all, and your help.

 

1 Date of the infringement 2 July 2020
 

2 Date on the NTK [this must have been received within 14 days from the 'offence' date]  02/07/2020
 

[scan up BOTHSIDES as ONE PDF- follow the upload guide]

 

3 Date received  2 weeks later?
 

4 Does the NTK mention schedule 4 of The Protections of Freedoms Act 2012? [Y/N?]  N
 

5 Is there any photographic evidence of the event?  Have contacted Morrisons about the incident, there should be CCTV, if it hasn't been deleted
 

6 Have you appealed? [Y/N?] post up your appeal]  Y

 

It was filled out online, appeal was rejected as I had no evidence to support my claim, beside payment to Morrisons on my bank statement.
 

Have you had a response? [Y/N?] post it up  Y...Appeal rejected.
 

7 Who is the parking company? Civil Enforcement
 

8. Where exactly [carpark name and town] Morrisons, Butterfly walk, Camberwell, London, SE5 8RW
 

For either option, does it say which appeals body they operate under. Further appealed via POPLA which was again rejected
 

 

DM-PCNs.pdf

[lookinforinfo]

 

Sorry-I should have reminded you to delete all your private details.

Wow you do move fast on getting things done. 

 

It seems like there must be a fault with the machine that allows you to pay without your registration number.

 

Thanks for the photos-they are a big help.

 

First is the sign at the entrance has no rules on it which means that the rules in the car park do not have to be observed as the entrance sign is an invitation to treat not offering you a contract.

The rules are too small to be enforceable on some of their notices at least.

 

Lastly but the most important is that the signs are from ABC parking Solutions, but it is CEL who appear to be asking for money. They cannot do that-it is ABC's signage.

 

Write to DVLA and ask who sent for your information.

If it was CEL, the DVLA have breached your GDPR and tell them that and ask for an explanation as this is not the first time they have been caught out by CEL. 

 

I have not found ABC on either BPA or IPC member lists....

 

Do not let CEL know as if they take you to Court in their name they lose. 

 

I am surprised that Morrisons are not cancelling the ticket anyway. You paid.

You complained quickly.

I guess you would have had to show your ticket to them to get the reduction?

[yewneik]

Yeah, I handed a second part of the ticket to the Cashier.

 

Thanks very much for your help all. I shall get in touch with the DVLA!

[lookinforinfo]

I would have thought that Morrisons would have accepted that as you paid £2 less that you must have had a ticket regardless of the reg. number being missing.

In the Stikkies at the top of the Private Motoring section is a template that you can use for the DVLA though you may have to improvise when it comes to the breach of GDPR.

[yewneik]

Thanks for help all,

 

Morrisons again came back and said, 'it's a private car park, so nothing to do with us.' I've emailed back asking about proof of purchase or CCTV data, but with no response yet.

 

Also messaged the DVLA on data requests. As mentioned on the demonstration letter, it says the .gsi email address isn't active any more I've instead gone directly to @ dvla.gov.uk and received an automated response that it had been received, so will let you know what they say.

 

All the best

[dx100uk]

how did you pay for your shopping?

 

[yewneik]

By Debit card, but unfortunately this doesn't give me a breakdown of what was purchased. I will now be forever doomed to keep every recipe I get.

[dx100uk]

doesnt maters shows you used morrisons.

 

 

[brassnecked]

If you have online banking list your transactions for around that date   it should show the money spent there with date, screen dump it and keep a file.

[yewneik]

Yeah, this is what I sent through to the second appeal, alas to no resolution.

 

Hoping on Morrisons actually helping out, otherwise the data request from the DVLA is sort of my last option.

[dx100uk]

Stop falling for their rubbish...

the issue here is you appealed

never appeal.

 

removes your protection under pofa as you ID'd the driver..

then they are like a dog with a bone.

 

simply ignore them now until/unless they send a letter of claim.

 

Dx

[lookinforinfo]

The DVLA is nowhere near your last option.

 

First of all you paid, so you owe them nothing.

Also to charge you £100+ for not entering your reg number is of secondary importance and so the charge would be considered a penalty.

 

Also their entrance signs are not enough to offer motorists a contract.

Equally their T&Cs are too small.

Did you manage to check that they had planning permission for their signage and cameras? 

 

You gave the impression that Morrrison were the ones who counted the money in the cash machine.

If so then their claim that it is a private car park and nothing to do with them is dubious.

[yewneik]

There are a few signage applications, but haven't found the cameras yet.

 

This is the only application I've found that specifically references the Car Park so far:

https://planning.southwark.gov.uk/online-applications-old/applicationDetails.do?keyVal=_STHWR_DCAPR_9532383&activeTab=summary

[dx100uk]

cracking research yewneik...wish all people were like you that come here!

 

dx

[lookinforinfo]

I expect as there are only two signs that they would be welcome signs to the carpark or parhaps charges to par there or how long motorists were allowed to park. Nothing to do with CEL.

[Carl316]

@yewneik Do you have the pictures of the signs from the car park?

[yewneik]

PDF including them near the start of the chain, I'm going to head down today to take my own and speak to the manager in Morrisons, hoping to be able to get CCTV and proof of purchase, but not holding my breath.

[lookinforinfo]

If you only bought a couple of things and you could advise the manager what they were, the store could then work out that they totalled £10+ which would confirm your £8 payment.

[yewneik]

Right, seems I've been absolutely fleeced on this one.

 

Have spoken to the manager of Morrisons, all transaction records are scrubbed after 28 days, as is CCTV footage. So no way to verify my purchase.

 

They also wash their hands of any responsibility, stating even their bosses get tickets and they can't get out of it.

 

All CCTV outside the store is owned by the car park. So possibility I could request it under GDPR, but almost certain they won't have a camera on the pay and display machine.

 

Signage on entrance to the car park does not show Terms and conditions, but does state see other signage for T&C's. so 50/50 on that avenue.

 

Signage in the car park does state Civil Enforcement will handle the follow up, so the idea of an incorrect company coming after me is also out the window.

 

Parking meters do not state the terms and conditions, but it irritatingly does say enter your registration number. Not sure if I've got anything with that.

 

Attached images of parking meter.

 

Other than this I think I'm royally stuffed,

 

Unless anyone can see a way around it I'm just going to stump up as I have a feeling these guys are very happy to go to small claims court or call up the bailiffs.

 

Thanks for all your help anyway.

 

DM

Morrisons_Denmarkhill_Ticketmachine.pdf