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    • I'm trying to understand it all but I certainly tend to agree with my colleague @dx100uk that it looks as if you may have been taken for a ride. You found an advertisement for a bag on an online sales site. Instead of going through the established procedure of that site, which presumably allows them to recover a commission from the seller you started dealing directly with the seller who is an unknown person to you and of course that allowed the seller to avoid paying the commission. At whose suggestion was it that you went off-site? You then pay by PayPal but instead of logging it with PayPal as a payment for a purchased item, you tell PayPal that it was actually simply a gift or transaction between friends and family. This also allowed the seller to avoid paying a PayPal fee on the money. At whose suggestion was it that you paid in this way?       I don't say that you definitely have been scammed, but it doesn't look very good. This is how it might have happened: after you agreed to take the transaction off-site, so you lost the protection of the established system – and the seller avoided the commission and also avoided the sales site knowing that they had sold their item, you then agreed to pay the seller some money – but not for a purchase – simply as a gift. This has two consequences. Firstly, the seller avoids a PayPal fee and secondly, because PayPal has been misled as to the purpose of the payment, you lose the protection of PayPal if it turns out that you've been scammed or there is some other problem with the transaction. The seller then apparently sent you the parcel and they sent you pictures of a package with your address on it. Separately they sent you a Hermes tracking number – but there is no evidence that the package was actually posted to your address. The seller might simply have taken a picture with your address and sent that to you by way of reassurance – and then changed the label and posted the parcel to themselves but sent you a tracking number which is inaccessible to you and in respect of which you will be prevented from getting any information. All you've seen is a parcel with your address on it. All you've been given is a tracking number which satisfied you for a while until the parcel did not arrive and then when you started to make enquiries, you found that you were unable to access any details referring to the tracking number. Of course the tracking number says that the item was delivered – because maybe it was – but in that case it was delivered to the address on the parcel which might have been the seller's own address – or the address of a friend. I don't want to say that this is definitely how it happened, but it is a plausible scenario. Of course Hermes is an awful lot of parcels – but on the other hand I expect that most of the parcel is that going to Hermes hands are delivered successfully. We only get the bad stories on this forum. I can imagine that Hermes rate of successful deliveries is better than 97% because otherwise people wouldn't simply just hate them, they would go out of business.   We can help you bring a complaint against Hermes if you want. However, on the basis of what you say, the odds are stacked against you but it would be useful to try and find out the address which was associated with tracking number. As far as your apparent willingness to travel hundred and 50 miles to ask for your money back, don't bother. If you did actually go there, are you sure that the seller actually lives at the address that you have been given? What evidence do you have that? Of course if you found that the seller didn't reside at that address then it is slamdunk that you have been scammed. But then what are you going to do? You can try to inform the police but of course it won't get you anywhere. You can inform the sales website – but they will say that you brought it on yourself because you agreed to go off-site. You can inform PayPal – that they will say that because you sent the money which was calculated to avoid their fees, you have lost the protection. If you travelled the 150 miles and found that the seller did reside at that address, do you really think that they are going to hand your money over to you? If they are acting dishonestly then they will simply say that it is nothing to do with them, that they addressed it all correctly and they don't understand what has happened and that this is simply Hermes up to their old tricks. What are you going to do? You simply risk getting into a very nasty argument and depending on how bad it went, you might even find that the police are called and I'm afraid that they would be looking at you – not the seller. Maybe you can answer the questions that I've post above as to who it is who initiated the various ways of doing business.    
    • The legal campaign's going well then. The recount in Wisconsin gave Trump more votes but Biden even more, at a cost of $3m. And a donor to the organisation bringing the failed cases is suing to get his $2.5m back.   https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/nov/28/joe-biden-gains-votes-in-wisconsin-county-after-trump-ordered-recount
    • Yes Unicorn feed tax again, can't sue the keeper for more than the Original Charge, so any additional Debt Collection fees aka the £60 they add is abuse,iof process as per HHJ Harvey at Lewes county Court What lookedinfroinfo is indicating is that the main signage on entry and dotted around is merely an " Invitation to Treat", not the offer, the Offer and Acceptance occurs at the payment machine, so wording there is key.
    • Hello and welcome to CAG.   People will be along later to advise you, please bear with us until they're able to get here.   In the meantime, I suggest you edit your attachment because you've left your name on it. Please check it carefully and remove anything that can identify you.   HB
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Parcel2Go £0.00 Parcelforce £100


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I am a regular (many years)  P2G user and selected them to use Parcelforce 48 service to send a gazebo I sold on eBay. 

Parcelforce 48 have an automatic max £100 compensation for lost items.

 

Parcelforce lost the item.

P2G state the £100 compensation Parcelforce offer within their price, does not get reimbursed to them, so they can't reimburse it to me.

However, it would have been reimbursed to me had I used Parcelforce 48 direct, rather than go through P2G. 

 

It seems rather strange that when I pay P2G to buy Parcelforce 48 service on my behalf, they buy a different service which excludes the automatic compensation.

 

They also lost another £40 parcel (which I did not buy additional insurance for, because it was an excluded item).

 

They also broke an item prior to delivery (which the addressee rejected as it was clearly a damaged parcel).

The thing is, if a parcel is rejected by the addressee, what should they do with the failed delivery?

 

In this case they threw away the parcel and 'broken' contents rather than return to sender and refuse to compensate me because I (again) did not buy the additional insurance.

 

I have escalated the rejected claims and they agreed as a gesture of goodwill to reimburse the postage costs for all three items. (I would have expected this as a matter of course) . 

 

Clearly many will consider I should have bought the extra insurance.

I often do, but feel the extra costs involved would be greater than the odd loss ( having never had a loss in a couple hundred sendings), I only pay extra on certain items.

 

I feel a summons coming on, so would be happy to receive any ideas.

Even if P2G have a rock solid defence regarding my lack of buying insurance, I still fancy testing their resolve and seeing if they fancy a hearing. 

Its WAR

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After escalating my claims, they agreed to refund the postage costs only.

 

I have therefore issue a Notice Before Action for the value of the lost items £180.

 

Notice Before Action

Dear Sir/madam

You have lost the following items.

1)      1

2)      2

3)      3

 

I understand you eventually accepted liability for these lost items and have agreed to reimburse the postage costs but not the values.

 

You suggest this is due to my failing to take out additional insurance.  

I am not prepared to accept your position and shall be issuing a summons on 18th August for £180, should you choose not to reimburse the values allocated to the items you have lost.

 

In particular:

Item 1)

This parcel was damaged by your courier and rejected by the addressee.

It appears rather than return the parcel and contents to me, your courier decided to throw the item away.

Thus the item has become lost, and therefore (due to my not paying extra for insurance against loss), you have chosen not to compensate.

Do you seriously expect to ‘lose’ an item on purpose by throwing it away, and then claim it has been lost and therefore not covered?

 

Item 2)

This parcel was lost and I made a claim.

During the period of claim, the parcel was found and began to track.

Ultimately being delivered (according to an email to the addressee, at 1.41 am 19 July 2020).

Clearly the parcel was not delivered at such a time.

 

You have subsequently suggested delivery was at a different time.

Despite these suggestions of proper delivery, you have been unable to prove delivery at all, the addressee has confirmed he has not received the item and you have accepted the item is lost. 

I do not accept you can be so careless as to lose an item twice.

 

When I purchased this sending through P2G, I selected Parcelforce 48 as the courier.

This service has a compensation value of up to £100 for loss.

This is why I selected them.

 

It appears however, you chose not to purchase this service from Parcelforce, but an alternative service purporting to be Parcelforce 48, but excluding the standard compensation. 

This is not what I had purchased.

I do not accept your claim that I should have paid extra for insurance for you to insure, when I had already purchased a service which carried automatic insurance.

 

Further, the service was supposed to be a 48 hour service.

The parcel was not collected within the 48 hour period, let alone delivered within it. 

I consider the delays in ensuring delivery within the expected timeframe would have contributed to the loss of this item.

I hold you responsible for the loss.

 

Item 3)

This item was also subject to a claim for loss.

During your investigations, this item was also found and started to track.

Messages advising  "Enquiry resolved", "INT Hold" and "Out for delivery”, suggest the item had eventually been found.

 

I do not accept you can be so careless as to find a lost item and subsequently lose it again, regardless of whether I had purchased additional insured.

 

Indeed, the option to purchase such insurance was not available as the item appears to have been excluded from such insurance.

 

Yours faithfully

Its WAR

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Two replies from P2G continuing to reject my cause of action. Just the issue regarding the parcel which they damaged and threw away. Time is up though and I will now prepare the summons.

I would love some help drafting the particulars. 

I would expect they will settle once I have issued the summons, but will happily attend a hearing and report back. Indeed, I would hope to get a hearing. So any advise on how to word the various points would be appreciated.

 

I have assumed that I would be issuing the summons against P2G rather than Hermes. Is this correct or should I be sueing them jointly? I have only issued letter before action to P2G. I intend to issue on 26th Aug.

Its WAR

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I've reached a similar point in my legal journey against P2G/Hermes and I'm interested to know to which I should issue my LBA. The contract is with P2G but the breach was the fault of Hermes' pathetic excuse for a service. I would hazard a guess that if you've only notified P2G of your intent to pursue action, then probably they are the best target - but @BankFodder was extremely knowledgeable and helpful in my case and may know better?

 

In terms of particulars, I (taking BankFodder's lead) am pretty convinced that P2G's attempt to say that you must buy compensation cover in order to insure them against their own failure to provide the services for which they were contracted constitutes an unbalanced contract under the Consumer Rights Act 2015. Take a look at the Competition & Markets Authority Guidance here, which I found illuminating and encouraging.

 

On another note, I'm keen to know where you sent your Letter Before Action to - trying to get the contact details of an actual person at P2G has been like getting blood from the proverbial stone for me, and the only success I've had has been via Twitter. Can you share any contacts you might have there?

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Hi Ozer85,

 

I  sent the LBA to P2G at The Cube (I didn't have a name). Although I also sent emails. Two of the 3 claims have had further email rejection replies. The LBA has been ignored and time was up last week.

 

I have had  offers to repay the three carriage fees though, but I have ignored them.

 

I am interested whether  you might be sueing Hermes or P2G. I accept the contract was with P2G and I am planning to sue them rather than Hermes, but I have no idea whether it would be better to hold off and go through Hermes claims procedure first (having done so with P2G to no avail) and sue them both as joint defendants (if you can do such a thing). But I guess this is over complicating things and a simple summons should suffice to P2G. 

 

Its WAR

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Hi @ItsWar,

 

I'm also seeking advice on who best to pursue and others on this forum might be more knowledgeable than me, but my current thinking is that it would be cleaner to have a single defendant in your case so that there's less danger that liability for their failure to deliver your item falls between the cracks of the two companies. As Parcel2Go was the company that was contracted to provide the services, they are probably the ones you should raise a claim against in the first instance, as a breach of that contract is ultimately their responsibility even if it was affected by the actions of one of its subcontractors like Hermes.

 

That said, the fact that Hermes runs such a poor business, cheats so many out of the items entrusted to them to deliver, and works so hard to avoid accountability for these failures makes them the real villains of the piece in my book, with Parcel2Go simply profiting off the back of it. So the troublemaker in me quite wants to go after Hermes nonetheless, and as far as I can see I'm within my rights to do so under the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999. Probably I'll send an LBA to both to keep my options open and see what happens, but I know that you're a bit further advanced in the process than I am, so that probably doesn't help you much. Sorry, but good luck nonetheless!

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I think you are right. I won't waste time thinking to add Hermes to the claim. Otherwise it will be too near to Christmas by the time I get a hearing, and I am busy then. I doubt it will make any difference anyway, as I expect them to fold once they see I am ready to go all the way, although I will be a little disappointed if they do.........but its only £180 plus an issue fee plus a hearing fee, so I doubt they will want a hearing.

 

Having used Parcelforce48 for the gazebo, I heard they xray all packages. Does anyone know if that is true and what part of transit through the system it occurs? It seems to me, they should at least be able to produce the image.........unless it got lost before that. It would make their claim to have delivered it rather weak, if it were lost before the xray.

 

 

Its WAR

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  • 2 weeks later...

Offer received today £20 per parcel (£60 total).

I still haven't issued the summons so rejected their offer. I will get around to the summons soon enough, but I guess it gives them time to accept full settlement plus postage.

Its WAR

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  • 2 weeks later...

Draft Particulars of Claim. Any observations gratefully received. I will issue through MCOL on Monday 14th Sept.

 

1.       The Claimant paid the Defendant fees to deliver three parcels.

 

2.       Defendants Reference numbers / date / description / value / postage fee

1.       P2G72688861 /  22 May 2020 / Vintage Wooden T Square / £15 / £4.37

2.       P2G73791631 / 09 June 2020  / Gazebo / £135 / £16.38

3.       P2G74330511 / 19 June 2020 / Vintage Camera / £30 / £16.38

 

3.       The Defendant failed to deliver or return these parcels.

 

4.       The Defendant has stated these parcels are lost.

 

5.       The Claimant requested the Defendant compensate for the values of the lost items plus postage.

 

6.       The Defendant has accepted liability for the lost parcels but refuses to compensate in full.

 

7.        The Defendant has offered to credit the postage costs and pay £20 compensation per lost parcel.

 

8.       The Defendant refuses to compensate in full because the Claimant did not pay extra for insurance.

 

9.       The Claimant states such requirement to purchase additional insurance to cover against the Defendants own negligence amounts to an unfair term under the Consumer Rights Act 2015

 

10.   In any case the Claimant disputes item 2:1 was lost, but was thrown away by the courier employed by the Defendant as the parcel was damaged by the courier during transit and rejected by the addressee.

 

11.   In any case the Claimant disputes item 2:2 lacked insurance cover as the service purchased was Parcelforce 48

 

12.   In any case the Defendants do not offer additional  insurance for  item 2:3

 

13.   The Claimant seeks compensation for the value of the lost items £180 plus postage £37.13 for Breach of Contract

 

14.   The Claimant also seeks statutory interest 8% £4.64 plus 4.75p per day until date of judgement.

Its WAR

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MCOL summons now issued. Brief version of particulars of claim. (Money claim online only provide space for a brief statement).

Quote

 

The Claimant paid the Defendant fees to deliver three parcels.

Defendants' Reference numbers / date / description / value / postage fee

1. P2G72688861 / 22 May 2020 / Vintage Wooden T Square / £15 / £4.37

2. P2G73791631 / 09 June 2020 / Gazebo / £135 / £16.38

3. P2G74330511 / 19 June 2020 / Vintage Camera / £30 / £16.38

The Defendant failed to deliver or return these parcels.

The Defendant has stated these parcels are lost and refuses to compensate.

I will provide the defendant with separate detailed particulars within 14 days after service of the claim form.

The claimant claims interest under section 69 of the County Courts Act 1984 at the rate of 8% a year from 19/06/2020 to 14/09/2020 on £217.13 and also interest at the same rate up to the date of judgment or earlier payment at a daily rate of £0.05.

 

 

Its WAR

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Why did you bother to say that you are going to provide a more detailed particulars of claim?

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Because the simple argument that they lost my parcels might only elicit a basic defence and give me less to work on. 

 

By giving them a detailed cause of action in a couple of weeks, I reckon they might provide a more detailed defence that I could then work on for preparing a better case at a hearing.

 

Although it might risk them choosing not to defend.  

I consider the more detailed cause of action (as in post 10 above) might be better

 

. Of course, the more detailed cause of action need not be that much more detailed should I choose otherwise.

Its WAR

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Well I think that you are quite wrong. You should simply lay out the very basic facts of your case and then leave it to them to decide how they want to defend. That then gives you something to go on when you frame your arguments or make a reply.

Also your allegation that the courier through the parcel way is something that you have no evidence to support. You immediately give them an easy win on that point.

your basic particulars of claim was perfectly adequate and didn't need anything more

 

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Less is more...your simply providing detail for them to expand with their defence.......go into detail later in the process.

We could do with some help from you.

PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING EVERY POUND DONATED WILL HELP US TO KEEP HELPING OTHERS

 

 Have we helped you ...?         Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group The National Consumer Service

 

If you want advice on your thread please PM me a link to your thread

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Parcel2go made their enquiries and told me the courier threw the parcel away after they didn't deliver it because the parcel was damaged. I

 

don't have to detail it if I do send a more detailed (or a less detailed) claim.

I do get what you say about less is more though but surely if they expand their defence, I have more to work with too? 

 

Frankly, I reckon its all moot if they have no intention to let this get to a hearing though.

Having said that, I expect they read these threads and have already read my post 10.

 

 

Its WAR

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Do you have that in writing – that they threw the parcel away?

 

I suggest that you don't send anything else off before you have run it past us.

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And I suppose that you don't record your calls and you haven't read our customer services guide

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Acknowledgement of Service now received. They say they intend to defend. 

 

I did offer more detailed particulars of claim (which seems to be against the wisdom of this site).

I was thinking of sending my post 10 (above).

 

Happy to be advised not to do so and send something less detailed.

If anyone wishes to suggest how to proceed, I am happy to be told.

 

Sadly I did not record the phone call which stated they threw my parcel away.

I will send them an SAR and specify the need for them to send me screen notes and transcript (although I doubt I will get either). 

Its WAR

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What's the point of giving you advice if you don't want to take it?

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I can't see any advise on my posts here saying anything about only providing basic particulars of claim. (I have subsequently found that advise elsewhere).

 

My posts 3 did ask for advise and none was offered.

Post 10 stated my detailed draft particulars, but received no advise, how not to send them or whether to edit them.

 

Further, I had already provided detailed notes in my Notice before Action.

So I haven't given them much more than they already had.

 

I have explained my reasoning why I thought detailed particulars of claim would be useful (they might elicit a detailed defence that I can then work on). However as it now stands, I have given only basic particulars of claim along with a suggestion that I would send a more detailed version.

 

I suppose I should therefore do so, unless others can suggest how to renege and not send more details if the wisdom of this site really thinks it a bad idea.

 

 

Its WAR

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We shouldn't have to repeat the advice word for word for every new person who comes along with pretty well identical situations. It's plastered all over the the Hermes threads.

Anyway, you've told them that you will send further and better particulars. If you are, simply send them a note telling them that you consider that you have included all relevant information in the particulars of claim as originally filed and you wait the defence.

You will have to head it up – Particulars of Claim – with the name of the case and the claim number et cetera so that it looks like a particulars of claim. And you are going to have to sign off as a statement of truth.
You see how unnecessary all is and what a load of hassle it is.

You will also have to sign a certificate service.

You better get going now.

I suggest you pay more attention to what is said on your thread and also to other people's threads. I'm afraid that we are not able always to offer a tailor-made personal service. This is why you should read around and take a lot of your cues from the experiences of other people on this site and the advice given to them.

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