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I have given notice of resignation at  my current employment (NHS Trust), and I've been told that I have annual leave remaining that needs to be used up before the last date of employment. However, my manager (who is famously difficult at the best of times!) refuses to let me take the leave on the days that I would like to have them. Moreover, she wants to extend the termination date so that I can avail of my annual leave. 

 

My question: what is the worst that will happen (realistically) if I decide not to come in on the last week of work?

Or what would happen if I unfortunately fell ill for the rest of my notice period?

 

 

 

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I would call your workforce team, although the response may be, departmental managers discretion.

 

As you've given them notice, you are under no obligation to change that date, unless you want to.

 

If you are in a union, then speak to them.

 

Simon

Frederickson - CCA Sent 11/4/07 - Lost - Claiming back from post office

Connaught Collections - CCA Sent 11/4/07 - No Agreement - returned to client

Lowell - CCA sent 11/4/07 - No agreement - returned to client

Moorcroft - CCA Sent 11/4/07 - No Agreement - returned to client

Red Castle - CCA Sent 11/4/07 - Copy returned but no T&C's

Robinson Way - CCA Sent 16/5/07

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Thanks for the reply. 

I'm not keen on getting advice from HR or my manager because neither would act in my best interests.

The union GMB have been largely as useful as dandruff, so far.

 

I was wondering if anyone has any knowledge about this.

 

I have an overlap of 3 days where I must start at the new job but my manager here refuses to give me annual leave for those days. And she is dictating what other days I can take off, too.

 

Just wondering what happens if I am unable to go in on those days either due to sickness or unforeseeable circumstances.

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  • honeybee13 changed the title to Resignation from NHS

Hi.

 

I've moved you to the main employment where your thread might have more views/input and I've amended the title slightly. Hopefully borisbeaver will stick with us if he can help further. :)

 

ETA: Do you think the manager is trying to avoid having to pay you for unused time off by trying to get you to extend?

 

HB

Illegitimi non carborundum

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

They can dictate when you take your leave by refusing a leave request.

 

However if you have given proper notice, they cannot extend your leave date without your consent. I would put that point to them in writing and ask what they propose to do to resolve the matter of your holidays. The answer may be that they will pay you for it instead.

 

HB - they will end up paying more pay though :) Not sure it helps them!

 

 

Edited by Emmzzi

Never assume anyone on the internet is who they say they are. Only rely on advice from insured professionals you have paid for!

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Posted (edited)
Quote

 

 

I'm a retired NHS manager.  I don't see how they can unilaterally extend your notice period.  So long as you have given your contractual notice period, then your last day of "employment" is when you decide it is.  (Whether that's a day you are actually at work or whether you are on leave is another matter).

 

Also, obviously, you don't "have" to take your accrued annual leave before your termination date - and you obviously can't if your manager won't let you take the leave!

 

What I think should happen is that they should pay you for any leave you have not taken.  Whether there are any circumstances in which they do not need to do that, I do not know.  See what others here say.

 

If I were you, I'd demand more help from my union.  Also seek advice from CAB and ACAS.  Assuming you have got your notice period dates right, go back to your manager and HR and tell them that your last day of employment is such and such, and that you expect to take off any time owing to you before then so your last working day will be so many days earlier.  Tell HR that if they won't let you take the leave and if they won't pay you for it, you'll sue them through small claims court.

 

Whatever happens, they can't extend your leave date, assuming you've got your dates right.

 

EDIT:  I see I've cross-posted with Emmzi - listen to what they say - they know what they're talking about - unlike me!

Edited by Manxman in exile
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5 minutes ago, Manxman in exile said:

 

 

 

EDIT:  I see I've cross-posted with Emmzi - listen to what they say - they know what they're talking about - unlike me!

 

We agree completely on the points of law :) Go us!

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Never assume anyone on the internet is who they say they are. Only rely on advice from insured professionals you have paid for!

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you need to ask for the leave in writing giving the required notice and let them refuse to let you take it, again in writing giving the required notice period all as per the Working Time Regs. You then use the grievance procedure to appeal your managers decision and that will force themto pay you for the accrued leave that cant be taken.

use the WTR and procedures to make them use their brains for once

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3 minutes ago, bitemarx said:

This seems to be very complicated and potentially could take longer than I can give it time. :-(

 

 

You are writing one letter. It takes five minutes. "I would like to take my eave on xx, I ammunwilling to move my end date of employment having given notice correctly. Please advise how you plan to resolve this matter,"

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Never assume anyone on the internet is who they say they are. Only rely on advice from insured professionals you have paid for!

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I thought that if you had untaken holiday owing at the day your notice expires employers had to pay for holiday days owing? That's how it worked when I left my last job (not NHS).

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Ethel Street said:

I thought that if you had untaken holiday owing at the day your notice expires employers had to pay for holiday days owing? That's how it worked when I left my last job (not NHS).

 

That was my understanding too. I see, however, in post #3 that you talk about an overlap of employment, hence the need to take leave.

This is where it could become sticky as, effectively, you would be doing two jobs at the same time.  This may lead to issues with the taxman and as an employer, I wouldn't be happy about that.

Edited by borisbeaver

Frederickson - CCA Sent 11/4/07 - Lost - Claiming back from post office

Connaught Collections - CCA Sent 11/4/07 - No Agreement - returned to client

Lowell - CCA sent 11/4/07 - No agreement - returned to client

Moorcroft - CCA Sent 11/4/07 - No Agreement - returned to client

Red Castle - CCA Sent 11/4/07 - Copy returned but no T&C's

Robinson Way - CCA Sent 16/5/07

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Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, borisbeaver said:

This is where it could become sticky as, effectively, you would be doing two jobs at the same time.  This may lead to issues with the taxman and as an employer, I wouldn't be happy about that.

 

 

HMRC don't care how many jobs you have as long as you are declaring and paying tax on all your earnings, so the overlap doesn't matter to them. It might to OP's current NHS employer though.

 

It looks like OP has created a problem for themself my agreeing to start the new job before the end date of their current job without asking for early release from their current employer.

Edited by Ethel Street
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OK.  You don't actually say there's an overlap - you just ask what would happen if you did not turn up for the last week.

 

So, assuming you have submitted your resignation with the correct notice period as per your contract of employment and assuming that there is no overlap of employment, do as I suggested before.

 

Contact your manager and HR (do it in writing and/or by email); tell them that you have submitted your notice of resignation as per the T&Cs of your contract of employment and that your last day of employment will be xx/yy/zz; tell them that you understand that you are owed so many days leave and that if your manager will not allow you to take that leave you are legally entitled to be paid for it; tell them that if you are not allowed to take the leave and they do not pay you for it, you will have no alternative but to sue them through the small claims court to recover the money legally owed to you.  I would also copy into this correspondence your manager's manager and the Director of HR (or whichever board director is responsible for HR).  You could also copy in the trust's "Company Secretary" (check who this is on the Executive Board or executive Team section of your trust's website) they will be very unhappy if the trust is sued for non-payment of holiday pay.

 

If I were you I personally would be reluctant to not turn up for the last week* - unless they grant you leave for that week.  If they won't let you take leave that week, I'd turn up for work - and make sure everybody knows you shouldn't be there, including any senior managers you happen to "bump" into.  It's only a week.

 

It will take you five minutes to draft the letter/email I suggest, and I'd be amazed if they didn't do what you want straight away.  If they don't give you leave, they should pay you for it.  If they don't pay you for the untaken leave, sue them for the money.  It's easy.  I bet that as soon as you send a letter before claim to the trust "company Secretary", the trust will pay up straight away - it will be too embarrassing for them to defend it.  Your manager and any HR people involved in this will get a bo77ocking too.

 

*Of course, if you are saying you are meant to start your new job before your notice actually expires (ie there is an overlap) that's a slightly different situation...  But you didn't say that in your opening post...

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9 minutes ago, Manxman in exile said:

*Of course, if you are saying you are meant to start your new job before your notice actually expires (ie there is an overlap) that's a slightly different situation...  But you didn't say that in your opening post...

 

OP added that (rather important!) information in post #3 - "I have an overlap of 3 days where I must start at the new job but my manager here refuses to give me annual leave for those days. "

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, Ethel Street said:

 

OP added that (rather important!) information in post #3 - "I have an overlap of 3 days where I must start at the new job but my manager here refuses to give me annual leave for those days. "

 

Pity they didn't say that in the opening post!  It is, as you say, rather important...

 

OP - ask your new employer if you can start 3 days late.  If you don't want to ask or they won't let you, you'll have to decide what to do yourself IF your current employee won't allow you to take your last week of employment as leave.

 

How on earth have you allowed yourself to get in this situation?  didn't you tell your prospective new employer that you had to give your current employer XX weeks notice so you would not be able to start your new job before ww/yy/zz?

 

This is looking like a mess of your own making rather than just an awkward manager...

Edited by Manxman in exile
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Thanks for all the replies.

 

I emailed my current manager with notice of resignation on the 29th of July. My new job, however, starts on the 24th of August. Yes, this is bad planning on my part but I was in a grey area wrt start date for the new job till the 29th due to some personal variables.

My manager acknowledged the resignation notice on the 31st of July.

 

The following is from the acceptance email:

 

"Thank you for informing me of your resignation. I acknowledge the receipt of your resignation email on 29th July 2020. In accordance with your contract, your notice period ends on the 26th August 2020 which will be your last working day. Your annual leave entitlement to the date your contract terminates will be 80 hours. You have taken 37.5 hours of annual leave so far this year, therefore you have 42.5 hours of AL owed to you. I will discuss with you how this may be taken when I see you on Tuesday."

 

The situation now is that I have asked a colleague to cover my shifts for the 24th, 25th ansd 26th (the days I had requested AL at my current job, and I'm hoping that they will agree to cover. If I get cover for these days, I will be granted AL.

This still leaves some hours AL which I need to use up before the 29th of August.

 

The extension of notice period or last working day has not been written down anywhere, instead she discussed it with me in person on the Tuesday.

 

Is it still worth sending that letter to the manager and HR?

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I'm going out for the evening now, will be back later. 

 

Have they actually said you can't have the time off?  Any leave time left that you haven't been able to take they should pay you for.  They can't extend your notice unless you agree.

 

See what others say.  You've submitted your notice  - hold fire on other letters for now.

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If you get somebody to cover for you on those last three days, are you saying you are OK?  ie you don't need to go to work in your old job and you can start the new one?  So that gives you what you want - yes?

 

If you can't get somebody to cover for you, you've got two potential courses of action - which may or may not be mutually exclusive.  First, ask if you can move your termination date forward by three days.  Obviously you won't get paid for those three days and whether your current trust will agree to this depends on what sort of relationship you have with your manager and how much they will need you to work those three days - or how easy you will be to replace.  If they say OK - you win.

 

Second, you don't turn up for work on those three days.  You will then technically be in breach of contract and in theory the trust could sue you for any financial loss they suffer as a result.  This would be the cost of employing somebody to replace you for those three days.  Will they need to replace you?  I suspect they would not bother to sue you, but nobody can guarantee they won't.  And what if you want a reference from them in future?  If you've already asked to bring your leave date forward, and they've refused, they may rightly conclude that you are taking the pi$$ if you don't turn up on those days, and they won't like it - or rather they won't like you...

 

Or, as I said before, get your new start date put back three days.

 

The thing is, your current employer can't extend your notice period unless you agree.  If they won't allow you to take leave owing to you during that notice period, they should pay you for it.  Whether you should write to them as I suggested earlier is more complicated because the situation is much less clear cut than you originally outlined.  (You had implied that they had already refused your request to take leave owing to you during your notice period and that you would have to extend your notice period to allow you to take that leave.  That isn't quite the position, is it?  And they haven't actually said they won't pay you for any leave you don't take, have they?)

 

Two other things: first, are you changing employer within the NHS?  If you are, it's a possibility that questions may be asked if you are in the pension scheme and you have two periods of full-time employment that overlap.

 

Second, your manager's email refers to "your last working day".  This is a little ambiguous and can cause a lot of confusion in the NHS.  You may wish to check whether they mean it is the last day of your employment (ie including any leave you are taking) or is it the last day you are actually present working.  Do you see the difference?  Managers often get hopelessly confused by this without HR guidance.  (And HR often get it wrong).

 

It's a pity you can't or won't seek union guidance if you are a member - that's what you pay for.

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Posted (edited)

And as for “what if I get sick the last week” (or those last three days)......

 

well, you’d get sick pay. Would you go into your new workplace?

 

HMRC may not be bothered by 2 overlapping jobs of course, but if NHS CFS (counter fraud And security) noticed that either:

a) you were claiming over-lapping sick pay for 2 jobs, or

b) you were claiming sick pay for one job while well enough to turn in for the other:

expect them to view at least one of the sick pay claims as fraudulent!

 

if you annoy your “difficult” manager : they might be difficult enough to highlight it for the local NHS CF specialist

Edited by BazzaS
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