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    • Claiming For A Breach Of Contract Where You Are Not A Direct Contracting Partner The contract is private to the contracting parties – “Privity” The general rule is that only the direct parties to a contract are allowed to claim if there is a breach. This is a very old rule and it is called “privity of contract” which means that a contract is private to the contracting partners. “Privity”can cause injustice This has caused some difficulties and even some injustice where a third party expecting to benefit from the contract might be expecting to receive something, if one of the parties to the main contract doesn’t fulfil their side of the bargain, you, the third party beneficiary can’t do anything about it - and the contracting party who did keep their promise is the only person who can sue and maybe they simply don’t want to. This could be even more unjust if you are the third party who funded the entire arrangement between the parcel broker and the delivery agent. The parcel was lost. Both the parcel broker and the delivery agent are not out of pocket – only you are out of pocket– but under the “Privity of Contract” rule you are not allowed to make a claim against the delivery company which lost or damaged your parcel. The Law Commission Report on Privity Of Contract And Third Party Rights In 1996 there was a report from the Law commission which recommended that in some circumstances third parties should be able to sue under contract even though they were part of the contract. In particular, the Law commission highlighted this injustice:   [The Person Who Has Suffered the Loss Cannot Sue, While the Person Who Has Suffered No Loss Can Sue]: In a standard situation, the third-party [privity] rule produces the perverse, and unjust, result that the person who has suffered the loss … cannot sue, while the person who has suffered no loss can sue.   As a result, Parliament passed a law called the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 This gives a third party in some circumstances the right to sue for a breach of contract even though they were not a direct contracting party. As a third party, are replacing one of the main parties When the third party uses this third party right, then they have to sue as if they were one of the direct parties to the contract and this means that they are bound by the same terms and conditions of that contract. This means that if it was a consumer contract then they can sue as the consumer with consumer rights. If it was a commercial contract, for instance between a broker and a delivery company, then you have to rely on your commercial rights. Most parcel delivery brokers are in the UK so you can sue the broker directly and this is always the best thing to do. However, there are one or two which are not in the UK. They are outside the jurisdiction of the UK courts and so if you arrange your parcel delivery through a one of those brokers and if your parcel is lost or damaged and if they refuse to reimburse you, suing the broker can be a difficult business and probably impossible. The only thing you can do is to sue the delivery company which lost the parcel but as you didn’t contract directly with them, you will have to rely on your “third party rights”. What the delivery company will say If the delivery company tries to defend the claim, they will probably say that although they did lose the parcel, you don’t have a right to sue them. They will say that you must sue the parcel broker because you made your contract directly with them – but of course we know that that is impossible because your parcel broker isn’t in the UK. You will have to state in your claim form and also explain to the judge that you are entitled under the 1999 Act because it was clear to the broker and to the delivery company that the delivery contract was made specifically for your benefit as the sender of the parcel and also for the benefit of the addressee – who is also a third party – and that it was even you who paid for the delivery anyway. What rights will you use? In a contract where you organised with Packlink, for example, to send a parcel using Evri, Packlink are based in Spain, you would have to sue Evri using the same commercial rights as enjoyed by Packlink. So in a commercial contract instead of relying on the Consumer Rights Act 2015, you would rely on the Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982 which also requires that a company selling a service must exercise reasonable care and skill and if they don’t then they are in breach. Also, in a commercial contract you would rely on the unfair terms provisions in the Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977 and which includes as an unfair term any attempt to restrict or limit liability without any good reason. If you are using your third party rights to sue on a consumer contract then you would be able to rely on the Consumer Rights Act 2015. Making a small claim as a third party is pretty straightforward The the process for bring a small claim as an entitled third-party is the same as any other small claim and pretty straightforward. The arguments are slightly different – but that’s all             Some examples of people who might be excluded by the “Privity” rule but are saved by their third party rights ·        Your friend takes you on holiday. They organise it and pay for it. Your friend’s holiday is great but your room is damp and rat infested. Your friend doesn’t want to claim against the holiday company. You took time off work for this holiday which you won’t get back but you didn’t have a contract with the holiday company.             You would sue the holiday company as third party consumer and rely on your consumer rights.   ·       Your friend uses a parcel broker based abroad to send you a mobile phone with £500. And the parcel arrives, it contains shoes. Your friend has moved to Australia permanently.           You don’t have a contract with the parcel broker so you would sue them as a third party to a consumer contract and                 rely on your consumer rights   ·        You get taken out for an expensive meal. Your host the table and pays for the meal but you get food poisoning. Your host had a great time and hasn’t actually lost anything.              They have no loss to claim but you don’t have a contract with the restaurant.You would sue as a third party to a                         consumer contract and rely on your consumer rights.   ·        You sell a mobile telephone on eBay and send it to your purchaser using an overseas parcel broker to organise the delivery through a UK delivery company. When the parcel arrives the purchaser finds that it contains some books.                 You sue the parcel delivery company as a third party to a commercial contract and rely on your commercial rights  
    • new subheading under paragraph 25 – The defendant is fully aware of third party beneficiaries new paragraph 26 Any denial by the defendant that they are unaware of the existence of third party beneficiaries to their contract with Packlink would be quite untrue. The defendant routinely sends out notifications to parcel recipients informing them the parcel which they are carrying on behalf of the broker is about to be delivered. Please find examples at – bundle X X X, X X X 26. 1) In the absence of any explanation the defendant’s denial should be disregarded.  but in any event,   If you have a look at the pinned thread at the top of this sub- forum relating to third-party rights, you will find several examples of notifications which have been sent by EVRi to the recipients of parcels warning them that their parcel which is being carried on behalf of QVC, Packlink – et cetera is due to be delivered. I suggest that you use a couple of these as examples of how EVRi is completely aware that there are third-party beneficiaries involved. If EVRi tried to say – "yes, we knew that there was a recipient that we had no idea that there was a sender…" Well, could they really be that stupid? I suggest you incorporate that, make the tweaks which have been suggested by @jk2054 and that's it. That would probably be the final version. You've worked hard on it – but hopefully the constant repetition will mean that you are absolutely fluent if it actually goes to court. EVRi are watching this of course and I don't really expect they are looking forward to having a judgement on this against them so I can imagine that they might reach out to you before the trial and make an offer. Have you paid the hearing fee yet? I don't think you have. I can imagine that they are waiting to see if you pay the hearing fee so they know that you are serious. Of course is not guaranteed but I would expect that they will try to prevent this going to trial. You should hold out for every penny. And if they want to make an offer to you under conditions of confidentiality then you should refuse. Confidentiality is not part of the claim. That something extra. If they try to impose a condition of confidentiality then you should tell them that this would cost them extra. I would say thousand pounds is probably cheap for the trouble that a judgement against them will cause them. Keep us updated of any approaches by EVRi – either on the forum – or by email if you prefer to admin email address. Let's see your final version
    • Hello I’m also going through the same at the moment for £300. Icon went quiet for a month or so but just received another text this morning to say “Notice of likely CCJ/Enforcement due to non-payment”. I’m still ignoring as per all of the threads on this but every time I get a text I still like to have a read up just to check advice hasn’t changed so good to read this thread! Thanks
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    • We have finally managed to obtain the transcript of this case.

      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

      Frankly I don't think that is any accident.

      One of the points that the judge made was that the customers contract with the broker specifically refers to the courier – and it is clear that the courier knows that they are acting for a third party. There is no need to name the third party. They just have to be recognisably part of a class of person – such as a sender or a recipient of the parcel.

      Please note that a recent case against UPS failed on exactly the same issue with the judge held that the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 did not apply.

      We will be getting that transcript very soon. We will look at it and we will understand how the judge made such catastrophic mistakes. It was a very poor judgement.
      We will be recommending that people do include this adverse judgement in their bundle so that when they go to county court the judge will see both sides and see the arguments against this adverse judgement.
      Also, we will be to demonstrate to the judge that we are fair-minded and that we don't mind bringing everything to the attention of the judge even if it is against our own interests.
      This is good ethical practice.

      It would be very nice if the parcel delivery companies – including EVRi – practised this kind of thing as well.

       

      OT APPROVED, 365MC637, FAROOQ, EVRi, 12.07.23 (BRENT) - J v4.pdf
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US elections November 2020


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Trump is looking less and less popular, over Covid and other things.

 

I'm not sure I'd be inspired to vote for someone who thinks the cognitive test he's talking about is too difficult for most people, especially Joe Biden. Is he confusing a congnitive test with an IQ one?

 

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jul/23/person-woman-man-camera-tv-trump-insists-cognition-test-was-difficult

Illegitimi non carborundum

 

 

 

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truth is the test he refers too was done in 2018!!

not recently at all.

 

USA has more than a quarter (143k) of the worlds deaths from covid 19 ...but only 4% of the worlds population...go figure ....blokes a prat...

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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So is Johnson

 

So whos pratting around voting for them

 

Bad as clinton was she was no Corbyn, so the yanks haven't even got that excuse.

 

 

 

 

The Tory Legacy

Record high Taxes, Immigration, Excrement in waterways, energy company/crony profits

Record low: living standards and investment

Crumbling Hospitals, Schools, council services, businesses and roads

 

If only the Govt had thrown a protective ring around care homes with the same gusto they do around their crooked MPs

“This is specifically not allowed. Mr. Mansour used to be a Cabinet Minister in Egypt, he has given the Tories a huge amount of money, and immediately gets a knighthood.

That seems straightforwardly corrupt.  Shouldn’t they both be in jail?”

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I'm wondering how many voters will be turned off by the White House's handling of the George Floyd demos and the Covid crisis.

 

Part of the electorate will stay with Trump whatever, but at the moment he's trailing Biden in Texas which is bad news if it continues.

Illegitimi non carborundum

 

 

 

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All Trump had to do to get re elected was make some empathetic speeches and defer to his scientists.

 

He screwed it up. He’s done , it’s over. 

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Problem is, the American people are dying of Covid and he is out playing golf. It's like Marie Antoinette, let them eat cake!

 

People laugh and snark about Boris but ultimately he had empathy, ultimately he flattened the curve of the disease, ultimately he bailed the population out financially.  Trump did none of those things.

 

4 months ago there was no doubt in my mind that Trump would win, This will be studied by our great grandchildren in history books as to how rapidly things can turn.

 

And before anyone says the polls are wrong, they are at 4 times the margin of error!!! There are 3 months now until the election, Biden is not Hillary Clinton, no mud is sticking. In fact Biden doesn't have to do a thing, just give Trump enough rope and he'll hang himself.

We could do with some help from you.

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21 hours ago, London1971 said:

 

People laugh and snark about Boris but ultimately he had empathy, ultimately he flattened the curve of the disease,

 

 

ultimately he bailed the population out financially.  Trump did none of those things.

 

 

 

 

He flattened the curve of the disease at best half of what he should have

 

and Johnsons gov were avoiding 4 million plus hitting the universal credit system and the immediate collapse of swathes of UK businesses,

yes thats better than Trump, but given the situation and the differences in the UK, his gov would have almost certainly collapsed if he hadn't

 

 

 

 

The Tory Legacy

Record high Taxes, Immigration, Excrement in waterways, energy company/crony profits

Record low: living standards and investment

Crumbling Hospitals, Schools, council services, businesses and roads

 

If only the Govt had thrown a protective ring around care homes with the same gusto they do around their crooked MPs

“This is specifically not allowed. Mr. Mansour used to be a Cabinet Minister in Egypt, he has given the Tories a huge amount of money, and immediately gets a knighthood.

That seems straightforwardly corrupt.  Shouldn’t they both be in jail?”

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22 hours ago, honeybee13 said:

 Covid press conferences but without the scientists so far. They weren't invited yesterday.

 

Because most are now flatly saying Johnsons policies are not medical advice or medical science rather than simply muttering 'political decision'

The Tory Legacy

Record high Taxes, Immigration, Excrement in waterways, energy company/crony profits

Record low: living standards and investment

Crumbling Hospitals, Schools, council services, businesses and roads

 

If only the Govt had thrown a protective ring around care homes with the same gusto they do around their crooked MPs

“This is specifically not allowed. Mr. Mansour used to be a Cabinet Minister in Egypt, he has given the Tories a huge amount of money, and immediately gets a knighthood.

That seems straightforwardly corrupt.  Shouldn’t they both be in jail?”

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interesting that Johnson has said there will be rises for the Judiciary, police and doctors

 

Well, the Judiciary have mostly been at home

Getting to actually see a GP, or even getting past 'every symptom is covid - isolate don't come in' has been and is a ferking disgrace

 

 

My other half and daughter in law, both NHS who have both been working right through the pandemic - longer hours and more responsibilities than normal

apparently still aint getting a penny extra.

 

 

 

 

  • Like 1

The Tory Legacy

Record high Taxes, Immigration, Excrement in waterways, energy company/crony profits

Record low: living standards and investment

Crumbling Hospitals, Schools, council services, businesses and roads

 

If only the Govt had thrown a protective ring around care homes with the same gusto they do around their crooked MPs

“This is specifically not allowed. Mr. Mansour used to be a Cabinet Minister in Egypt, he has given the Tories a huge amount of money, and immediately gets a knighthood.

That seems straightforwardly corrupt.  Shouldn’t they both be in jail?”

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1 hour ago, tobyjugg2 said:

 

Because most are now flatly saying Johnsons policies are not medical advice or medical science rather than simply muttering 'political decision'

 

You mean Trump, right?

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Either/or

I was referring to Johnson

but Trump fits equally well there

... Just a matter of degree and what each thinks they can get away with in most areas

 

Like johnson would never get away with 4-9 million extra unemployed and tens of thousands of Tory voting small businesses down the pan

Trump doesn't care - cheap slave labour without using Mexicans

.. Johnson just wishes he could

Edited by tobyjugg2

The Tory Legacy

Record high Taxes, Immigration, Excrement in waterways, energy company/crony profits

Record low: living standards and investment

Crumbling Hospitals, Schools, council services, businesses and roads

 

If only the Govt had thrown a protective ring around care homes with the same gusto they do around their crooked MPs

“This is specifically not allowed. Mr. Mansour used to be a Cabinet Minister in Egypt, he has given the Tories a huge amount of money, and immediately gets a knighthood.

That seems straightforwardly corrupt.  Shouldn’t they both be in jail?”

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On 23/07/2020 at 14:31, London1971 said:

 

People laugh and snark about Boris but ultimately he had empathy, ultimately he flattened the curve of the disease, ultimately he bailed the population out financially.  Trump did none of those things.

 

 

Yes and at least Johnson has admitted there were mistakes in not locking down sooner, something you couldn't imagine Corbyn doing.

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Surely you mean Johnson makes feeble excuses for the results of terrible personally driven policies and practices and claims it wasn't his fault

... just like Trump and Corbyn have and continue to do

Edited by tobyjugg2

The Tory Legacy

Record high Taxes, Immigration, Excrement in waterways, energy company/crony profits

Record low: living standards and investment

Crumbling Hospitals, Schools, council services, businesses and roads

 

If only the Govt had thrown a protective ring around care homes with the same gusto they do around their crooked MPs

“This is specifically not allowed. Mr. Mansour used to be a Cabinet Minister in Egypt, he has given the Tories a huge amount of money, and immediately gets a knighthood.

That seems straightforwardly corrupt.  Shouldn’t they both be in jail?”

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I'm reading excuses - and feeble ones

 

"the prime minister has said he took the "right decisions at the right time", based on the advice of scientists."

 

 "We didn't understand [the virus] in the way that we would have liked in the first few weeks and months."

 

" "I think it's fair to say that there are things that we need to learn about how we handled it in the early stages

 

""Maybe there were things we could have done differently, and of course there will be time to understand what exactly we could have done

 

 

Do read what you link

 

The Tory Legacy

Record high Taxes, Immigration, Excrement in waterways, energy company/crony profits

Record low: living standards and investment

Crumbling Hospitals, Schools, council services, businesses and roads

 

If only the Govt had thrown a protective ring around care homes with the same gusto they do around their crooked MPs

“This is specifically not allowed. Mr. Mansour used to be a Cabinet Minister in Egypt, he has given the Tories a huge amount of money, and immediately gets a knighthood.

That seems straightforwardly corrupt.  Shouldn’t they both be in jail?”

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So show a single clearly defined mistake admitted or apology

 

From refusing PPE and UK PPE being sent to China

Lying about PPE being ordered and coming in from Turkey

Demonstrating Handshakes when there should have been care

18 million people admitted/returned into the UK untested and unchecked

SPADS and ministers P*ing all over lockdown while fining ordinary folk

 

.. theres lots and lots of cretinous decisions for him to pick a clear apology from

.. and not a single one - just like Corbyn and Trump

The Tory Legacy

Record high Taxes, Immigration, Excrement in waterways, energy company/crony profits

Record low: living standards and investment

Crumbling Hospitals, Schools, council services, businesses and roads

 

If only the Govt had thrown a protective ring around care homes with the same gusto they do around their crooked MPs

“This is specifically not allowed. Mr. Mansour used to be a Cabinet Minister in Egypt, he has given the Tories a huge amount of money, and immediately gets a knighthood.

That seems straightforwardly corrupt.  Shouldn’t they both be in jail?”

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Mr Johnson said: "Maybe there were things we could have done differently, and of course there will be time to understand what exactly we could have done, or done differently."

 

It's nice to see he takes full responsiblity for what the government has done. But I disagree with the time to understand comment, a second wave could be pretty soon.

 

Illegitimi non carborundum

 

 

 

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Yup, Johnson did a poor job, as did Macron, Spain, Italy, just nobody in this country follows any other country aside from the US and Australia.  The Belgian PM is taking, deservedly a lot of flack.

 

But, not one of them, Johnson included can be compared with Trump.  He is on the spectrum of normality, and believe me I don't like Boris one bit.  Trump is like Marie Antoinette, telling the people to eat cake.  The population is dropping like flies, but he is playing golf, tweeting about fake news, boasting about his achievements and some cognitive test a 5 year old could complete.

 

Lets not forget this is the man in control of the worlds largest nuclear aresnal, and has the ability to destroy every major city on earth. All in all it makes the likes of Boris, Macron etc, seem like small fry.

We could do with some help from you.

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14 minutes ago, honeybee13 said:

Mr Johnson said: "Maybe there were things we could have done differently, and of course there will be time to understand what exactly we could have done, or done differently."

 

It's nice to see he takes full responsiblity for what the government has done. But I disagree with the time to understand comment, a second wave could be pretty soon.

 

 

Maybe If he had left out that Maybe ....

The Tory Legacy

Record high Taxes, Immigration, Excrement in waterways, energy company/crony profits

Record low: living standards and investment

Crumbling Hospitals, Schools, council services, businesses and roads

 

If only the Govt had thrown a protective ring around care homes with the same gusto they do around their crooked MPs

“This is specifically not allowed. Mr. Mansour used to be a Cabinet Minister in Egypt, he has given the Tories a huge amount of money, and immediately gets a knighthood.

That seems straightforwardly corrupt.  Shouldn’t they both be in jail?”

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changes a weak but arguably an actual apology into nothing but an excuse and avoidance at best in my eyes

 

A simple apology with a clearly defined focus is what is needed

 

 

and given how often he does munge and obscure a required apology, quite clearly says to me that no apology was or is intended. Quite the opposite.

Edited by tobyjugg2

The Tory Legacy

Record high Taxes, Immigration, Excrement in waterways, energy company/crony profits

Record low: living standards and investment

Crumbling Hospitals, Schools, council services, businesses and roads

 

If only the Govt had thrown a protective ring around care homes with the same gusto they do around their crooked MPs

“This is specifically not allowed. Mr. Mansour used to be a Cabinet Minister in Egypt, he has given the Tories a huge amount of money, and immediately gets a knighthood.

That seems straightforwardly corrupt.  Shouldn’t they both be in jail?”

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The Tory Legacy

Record high Taxes, Immigration, Excrement in waterways, energy company/crony profits

Record low: living standards and investment

Crumbling Hospitals, Schools, council services, businesses and roads

 

If only the Govt had thrown a protective ring around care homes with the same gusto they do around their crooked MPs

“This is specifically not allowed. Mr. Mansour used to be a Cabinet Minister in Egypt, he has given the Tories a huge amount of money, and immediately gets a knighthood.

That seems straightforwardly corrupt.  Shouldn’t they both be in jail?”

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