Health & Social Services & Social Security Adjudications Act 1983

[Spottydog2020]

Update:

I've managed to get  a dialogue going with the LR and they advise that it is for the applicant [ my buyer] or their conveyancer to notify the council.

 

I'm trying to establish the timing for this - i.e. whether the buyer/their conveyancer has to do this before the sale or whether it can be done after the sale.  

 

The LR has also suggested that they send in copies of my father's death certificate to demonstrate I'm the sole proprietor

- I'm not comfortable with that so I think I'd rather register via form DJP [Death of Joint Proprietor] with the LR myself and again I have asked what the implication is of my doing that [making me the sole proprietor] in relation to the restriction.

 

Why is this all so complicated???

 

I'm hoping for clarity so that I can appoint a CS who understands the position so the situation doesn't escalate.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[dx100uk]

On 10/07/2020 at 23:52, dx100uk said:

i suspect the charge on the Land registry site against the house reads:

 

2. (XX.XX.2007) RESTRICTION:

No disposition of the registered estate is to be completed by registration without a certificate signed by the applicant or his conveyancer that written notice of the disposition was given to XX Council at P.O. Box XX, STREET, TOWN, POSTCODE, being the person with the benefit of a Charge under Section 22 of the Health and Social Services and Social Security Adjudications Act 1983.

 

..............

 

that is a restriction k and is useless to the council, as all 'legally' your have to do is inform them AFTER the house has been sold .

then it's too late money has gone.

 

dx

 

if this is the same as yours 

it states exactly who has to do what and when..

 

dx

 

[Spottydog2020]

dx100uk

Yes that's the wording. 

I'm not clear who the applicant is in this situation! 

 

LR say that the applicant is the buyer or their conveyancer. So in that case as others have said on here - the buyer/conveyancer need only write to the council after the sale.  

OR

Does 'applicant' in this case refer to the council who made the application for the restriction? 

 

If the former this is dependent on my solicitor and the buyer's solicitor being aware of this type of restriction and particularly the purchaser is unfazed by a 'restriction' on the property.

LR confirmed earlier that as my father was a joint proprietor of the property, the charge could not be registered or noted, instead it was protected by registration of a [non-standard] restriction. 

If the latter then the council won't do that until I've paid the bill [whatever that is now]

[dx100uk]

1 hour ago, Spottydog2020 said:

LR say that the applicant is the buyer or their conveyancer. So in that case as others have said on here - the buyer/conveyancer need only write to the council after the sale.  

the buyer simply has to write and tell them they now own the property.

 

as far as i can understand,

if this is akin and treated the same as any other restriction k we've met here already on CAG in relation to consumer debts and a restriction k following a CCJ

and carehome fees are not something 'special' as they didn't need to get a CCJ first unlike above

 

there is stuff and all the council can then do.

 

dx

[Spottydog2020]

Thanks Dx - I will update you when I have more news.

 

I've spent the afternoon speaking to various solicitors [or their administrators] trying to establish what's what

- there seems to be a lot of confusion over this.  

 

If there's 'stuff all' the council can do

- I wonder why they bothered to register the restriction in the first place? 

[dx100uk]

because their legal dept is useless.... same as all the DCA's when they go for a CO on a jointly owned property following a default CCJ judgement.

 

but we need to be 1000% sure this carehome restriction k IS treated the same as a std consumer credit restriction k following a CCJ.

 

 

 

 

[Spottydog2020]

So mine is not a charge, there was no interim or final court order.

LR has said it's a NON-STANDARD restriction NOT a restriction K.

 

I've re-read the practice guide 19: notices, restrictions.

 

The para below looked interesting.

 

My wording states....No disposition of the registered estate is to be completed by registration without a certificate signed by the applicant or his conveyancer that written notice of the disposition was given to the ...[council].  

 

Back to square one - what sort of certificate? 

3.1 The nature and effect of restrictions

3.1.1 The general effect of restrictions

Restrictions prohibit the making of an entry in respect of a disposition or a disposition of a specified kind.

The prohibition may be indefinite or for a specified period and it may be absolute or conditional on something happening (for example, on getting the consent of a third-party).

 

The term ‘disposition’ is not defined in the Land Registration Act 2002.

Most restrictions refer to dispositions by the proprietor of the registered estate or of a registered charge, implying some action by that proprietor to make the disposition.

 

A disposition may also occur by operation of law, and a restriction that refers merely to “no disposition” would also catch such a disposition.

Please note, however, that a discharge of a registered charge is not a disposition and cannot be prevented by a restriction.

 

A restriction makes it apparent from the register that either the powers of the relevant proprietor are limited, or that a prior condition must be met before a disposition can be registered.

 

The purpose of restrictions is to regulate registration, not regulate dispositions.

So, where a restriction entered in the register requires consent or has an option requiring consent, the consent given in relation to the restriction should expressly consent to the registration of the disposition, not consent to the disposition.

 

This requirement does not apply to a restriction that requires a certificate.

In that case, all that is needed is that the certificate complies with the requirements of the restriction.

 

Once entered, a restriction will remain in the register until it is cancelled or withdrawn.

Restrictions are not automatically cancelled following a disposition, although we may cancel any restriction that has clearly become superfluous.

[dx100uk]

i think you keep trying to find ways to not believe what you are being told...................

 

a certificate (letter) is merely proof from the buyers conveyance solicitor that they have written to the owner of the restriction k informing them of the successful sale.

the buyers conveyance solicitor simply fwds that to LR along with the relevant registration of the property forms in the new owners name.

 

the comment of 'a non std restriction', simply mean that LR consider it not a std restriction k, which is correct, it's not, ....

 

it was not attained following a CCJ, it was registered , as the council can do do, under their existing legal powers in general legal regulations.

 

likewise a council does not have to go before a magistrates court to get a liability order for CTAX arrears, it's simply rubberstamped, because pervious rules exist for councils.

 

 

[Spottydog2020]

dx

 

I'm really not trying to be difficult or find ways to 'not believe' what I've been told. I'm just trying to clarify things.

 I took the day off work today to speak to various conveyancing solicitors [and Land Registry] to try and get a straight answer.

If a certificate means a letter, I don't know why it isn't written so!

A certificate implies something different to me.

 

In summary then,

this non-standard restriction [similar to a Restriction K] has no teeth!

 

To address this - the buyer's conveyancer sends a letter to the council to say that they are the new owners.

They then write to the LR to inform that they've notified the council.

The LR then removes the restriction?

 

I sent a summary along these lines  [thanks to you guys] to some CS asking for quotes and the responses were not clear with some saying they would charge an extra £amount to discharge the charge.

 

When I said I didn't want to pay the charge, I wanted them to deal with the conveyancing whilst aware of the restriction - they dropped off the radar.

 

So if 'my' conveyancing solicitor [when I appoint one] isn't familiar with this- then there's less chance that the buyer's conveyancer will be - which could lead to panic and withdrawal of the offer.

 

I've tried googling to find CS with experience of restrictions but that hasn't delivered.

 

LR has provided some assistance but not a definitive response so I could share with a CS.

Thank you

 

 

 

[dx100uk]

LR are a bit like national debtline and Stepchange etc

they haven't really got the expertise to deal with 'legal' enquiries.

they 'react' to what they are told to do by whomever contacts them.

 

the buyer simply needs to send a 'certificate' stating in legal terms that the owner of the restriction has been informed by letter on date xyz of the sale.

and p'haps say include a copy and official proof of postage which is attainable for free from any PO counter.

 

the LR arn't there to decide IF the restriction should be removed or not, they simply read what the text says and obey.

and there is nothing within the restriction text that says otherwise. as long as the terms of the restriction have been abided by

 

if you like, they are simply a gatekeeper whom act as a register of property/land oevership.

 

as for finding suitable solicitors

you p'haps are frightening them away by even saying anything about the restriction at all.

it's for them to do their employed job.

same for the buyer.

 

there are numerous threads here on this.

and don't get ripped off either.

there should be a minimal charge for such a simple process of 2 letters.

 

 

 

 

[Spottydog2020]

Thanks DX - I have now instructed a solicitor.

 

I had to disclose the non-standard restriction as all the quotes I got for were based on 'straightforward' transactions and did ask whether there were any restrictions etc. on the property.

 

The CS indicated they were familiar and it would be dealt with as standard process through the conveyancing process but then said "and the charge can be repaid at the same time as...."

 

I pointed out the wording on the restriction [previously shared with the firm] and the advice received from LR and elsewhere concluding with my expectation that the council could be informed after the sale. The response was that it would be dealt with as part of the conveyancing process.

 

that's where we are.

I will update you at conclusion of this business and hopefully there will be a positive outcome from which others can share/benefit.

Thanks 

[Spottydog2020]

I tried to post an update on an earlier thread without success.

 

Long story short.

The house sale has taken place [title deeds had a charge against property] Restriction said 'No disposition of the registered estate is to be completed by registration without a certificate signed by the applicant or his conveyancer that written notice of the disposition was given to [name of council].

 

Exchange and completion within a couple of days.

I've not heard anything from either solicitors involved on this point nor the council so not sure of the purpose / effectiveness of the charge as it doesn't seem to have held up the sale.

 

Perhaps I'll get a bill next month??

Has anyone had a similar experience?

 

[Spottydog2020]

Hi Honeybee

Yes that's the one - many thanks. I did try and update it late last night but it said I had to contact site owners so I gave up and went to bed!

In the end after no contact/updates from the solicitors the sale went through very quickly so I presume that didn't give the council sufficient time to swing into action.

 

Thanks

[dx100uk]

there never was anything the council could do.

[Spottydog2020]

Thanks dx100uk - I'm not sure what the council will do next so will wait and see and update later if there are any developments. Thanks to all on the site for the advice. This has been hanging over my head for so long - wish I'd done it sooner.  

[dx100uk]

i doubt you'll get anything.

they might try on the old you have a  'summary' debt owing letter 

but those usually die of death