Don't take holiday; but won't pay or carry over.

[DescartesHorse]

Hi, just as in the title really. Need some advice on my legal position please.

I work in logistics as a driver. Been at the company for just shy of 5 years.

Always had a good relationship with management. Enjoy the people/environment.

 

However, a new logistics manager has recently started and seems to be determined to stamp his authority over everything no matter how small. I think the term is "micro-managing"? He changed the holiday protocol from a calendar on the office wall where we could add our names and then let manager know if ok, to a form which must be completed and then if he agrees he and he alone will write on the big holiday calendar. 

No problem with that, probably a good idea. 

 

The problem is he has decided that due to that wonderful catch-all get-out-clause phrase "needs of the business" none of us can take any holiday in July or August. He has also written a memo that any unused holiday will not under any circumstances be paid in lieu at the end of the year or carried over into the next year. 

Only one driver is allowed off on any day for holiday, so because I was a bit slow in requesting holiday, I now have about 25 days remaining that I literally cannot take before the end of the year.

Can't take it, won't pay me for it.

 

Obviously, boo-hoo, poor me! I feel p****d by his high-handed approach, however what's my legal position. It seems grossly unfair. 

Thanks for any links to legislation on this, as "just having a polite quiet word" doesn't seem to be in his management style handbook. And losing 25 days of holiday seems wrong.

 

Edited July 6, 2020 by DescartesHorse
spelling, spacing.

[ericsbrother]

 I would book the holiday as either a block or as single days spread out over 2 months.

The Working time regs say you only have to give 2 dasy notice for a day off so if your mass bookings get cancelled then you just book them again  giving the required notice.

You should raise a grievance if yu get them cancelled because you have an entitlement to take your paid leave and if they keep refusing you then you may seek redress at an ET.

the higher management wont like either the every other day off for 2 months or being dragged thriough a court because soem junior manager wants to look tough

[DescartesHorse]

Thanks for the reply. I'm sorry but I don't think I fully understand what you're suggesting. Are you saying that I should book my 25 days as a single chunk and when he naturally says "no way" I simply flip him the bird and say I'm doing it anyway?

I'd love to do that, however, I imagine I'd be signing on for JSA the very next week?!

 

The same if I book two days off every week until the end of the year. He'll simply refuse and say if I do that I'll be done for gross misconduct!

 

What am I missing here? 

 

By my nature I'm not very adversarial anyway, and would always try and not wee on the pitch unless I absolutely have to, as I might win the battle but lose the war because my working relationship with him would become so toxic as to force me to leave anyway as he holds all the cards as my "boss" (yes, junior management, but I'm even MORE junior!!!)

 

Simply put - if I fill in his holiday form tomorrow requesting the last two weeks of August off, he will rip it up and say no. What do I directly do then....?

[Emmzzi]

you ask him to tell you when you can take the holidays. If the answer is never, you ask him to put that in writing.

[DescartesHorse]

I tried that yesterday, hence my posting today - he said "not yet, not yet, I'm too busy at the moment, soon, soon, get out my face, etc!"

 

He's quite a physically threatening man and I don't have the presence to put him to the question, in the moment, if you understand me.

 

Why the issue has been forced in my mind is that I really need to take the last week in August off to visit a friend in France for important reasons. The calendar that week is already showing fully booked. (The calendar is fully booked anyway from 4th week in Aug pretty much straight through to middle of November now, and only one person allowed off at a time). Also fully booked over the Xmas/New Year from Mid Dec).

 

So it's conceivable I could just about squeeze in my entitlement between around Nov 14-Dec 12 if I took it all as one block. However I don't want to, or feel it's fair.

 

I realise what is "fair" doesn't come into employment law, so do I have any legal recourse except to follow Eric's advice and begin an irrevocable war of passive-aggression until I'm forced to leave?

 

 

 

[Emmzzi]

This is where being in a union helps. 

 

Start putting requests in writing. 

[Consumer_Sue]

Hi there

 

Does your company have an Annual Leave Policy/Employee Handbook?  Is there mention of Annual Leave in your Contract of Employment?

 

I only ask because, typically most employers do allow for carry over. 

 

How much leave have you taken so far? Although he can refuse your request/s he cannot refuse to let you take your minimum leave entitlement.  Minimum leave as defined in the Working Time Regulations is "Most workers who work a 5-day week must receive at least 28 days' paid annual leave a year"

 

Has Covid had anything to do with the amount of annual leave you havent' taken?  New legislation was brought in earlier this year, here is the link:

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/rules-on-carrying-over-annual-leave-to-be-relaxed-to-support-key-industries-during-covid-19

[DescartesHorse]

Fair point - none of us drivers belong to a union, my understanding is they only help "after the event"? IE/ no point me joining now to ask for advice?

 

Without giving too much away, my company is owned by a massive multi-national, so it's not a one man and his pony outfit. I'm quite certain I could "kick it upstairs" to more enlightened management and probably get my immediate problem sorted, however it would leave my relationship with my immediate boss in such a shiitty state as to be an even bigger problem.

 

Does anyone have any legislation links to the exact issue of not being allowed to take holiday, yet not having it paid in lieu or carried into the next year? (I also realise this Covid situation is totally novel so I almost don't blame him personally, however... I don't work for love and goodwill)

 

[DescartesHorse]

Thanks Sue, we cross-posted. Yes this is 100% to do with the Covid situation. I've taken 4 days annual leave out of my entitlement this year back in February before it all happened. Which, after 5 years service leaves me with around 25 days remaining). Because no one was allowed to take any holiday due to either furlough or needs of business (as we are technically key workers), it means that 12 drivers are left with 4 months to use up an impossible amount of holi-days. No problem if they'd pay in lieu or carry over, however the head office has decided in their infinite wisdom that all holiday must be used by Dec 31st. - a physical impossibility if only one driver is allowed off per day. 

 

Sneaky clever bastads, hey!

 

 

[DescartesHorse]

As an aside, I've never understood this from management - it may be correct legally but situations like this just p*ss away all the goodwill amongst us "underlings" to such an extent that whenever overtime is needed or help required it just makes me/us think - "do you know what, no!"

 

I'll never understand that. Such a small thing for them, yet would give us such a feeling of loyalty and willingness to help out.

 

Anyway, all that's just me tilting at windmills. My immediate problem is how to get what I need without turning it into a d*ck-swinging contest that I'll always lose. I like my job, I'm not ready to die on this hill just yet, however I won't roll over and have my belly tickled either!

 

Appreciate all your responses, thank you. 

[Consumer_Sue]

I have not had any experience with Unions, however it is my understanding that the minute you sign up you are covered and therefore can ask for help on any topic.

 

I wholeheartedly agree with you re "goodwill".  This is very short sighted of the company and to treat people this way irrespective of Covid is just rotten.

 

You might want to put a call into ACAS, they are a free service and will talk through your predicament and give you some tangible advice on your rights etc.  

 

https://www.acas.org.uk/contact

[DescartesHorse]

thanks again for the links, Sue. I'll look at Acas, I just don't want to have to escalate what should be such a simple thing to arbitration levels. I was hoping for a response which was (perhaps naively) "No he can't do it, and here's the law why..."

 

Anyone?

 

Failing that, as any week from end of August is equally as unavailable as any other until mid Nov, if I go to the boss and say when can I take my 25 days please, and he can't factor them in to his calendar, what would happen if he refuses to put that in writing. Do I hold the pen in his hand, van keys pressed into his neck, etc?

 

(obviously I'm speaking metaphorically).

 

 

Edited July 6, 2020 by DescartesHorse
sarcasm

[DescartesHorse]

I'd like to take the last week in August as holiday to visit my friend. I'd understand if this particular week was problematic for boss. However 3 weeks before that, and 5 weeks after it are also "no go" either, so I'm at a loss how to move forward.

 

[honeybee13]

Hi.

 

It seems to me that you're doing this negotiating verbally and as someone suggested earlier, it would be better in writing so you have a paper trail.

 

In terms of joining a union, no they may not help this time but if you've been with the company for five years then presumably you want to stay there it could help next time.

 

Have you spoken to your driver colleagues about the problem? You may not be the only one who's affected.

 

HB

[ericsbrother]

read the Working time regulations for paid holiday.

Younhave to put your request in writing and you have to gibe a minimum amount of notice. If your boss refuses your request they ahve to do so in a set time and they ahve to say why, also in writing.

As this manager is not the head of the company you can use the company grievance procedure if and when he refuses to allow you to take your leave and especially of he wont put the reasons down in writing ( that is the law so he has to).

paid holiday is set in law, you wont get saced for properly requesting it and if your manager is being a twonk just for the sake of it then they wont be in post for long.

 

get all of your colleagues to follow the correct procedure as well as it sounds as though this chap is flying by his backside rather than enforcing company policy

Edited July 10, 2020 by ericsbrother

[DescartesHorse]

Appreciate the opinion Ericsbrother thanks. 

 

It's one of those situations where I can be right yet still lose out. I'll certainly get him to put his refusal in writing though. 

 

It's also difficult because his policy is "only one driver can be off at any one time for holiday". Fair enough, I understand why. However, if that means there aren't physically enough days left in the year for all 12ish drivers to take their entitlement before year end, then it becomes problematic.

 

My request for last week in August has been refused because there's already a driver booked off. So, I understand insomuch. Every other darn week has now got someone off on holiday now till mid Nov!!! 

 

I may need to force the issue with this last week in Aug. It's just a shame that things always end up this way. It's not my first rodeo with small-minded petty middle-mingers types. Shouldn't have to be this way.

 

 

Edited July 11, 2020 by DescartesHorse
*middle-management

[Emmzzi]

you have 25 days remaining. 12 drivers x 5 weeks = 60 weeks, which is more than exist in a year.

 

This rule will never work.

 

 

[DescartesHorse]

Emmzzi - you are correct! I'd never actually done the maths like that, I think in the past (I've been there for 5 years, company going for about 9), there was only ever 8 drivers, and even now most of them don't take all their holiday entitlement each year historically anyway because of this culture of "presenteeism" and the natural replaceability of old hairy-ass drivers like ourselves. Unfortunately people like me/us are a dime a dozen to management....

 

Complain too much, off you pop and there are a thousand more like you to replace you, so be grateful and keep schtum.

 

However, I'm now starting to feel a bit aggrieved about this deliberate "taking the p**s" stance from manager. 

 

Now there's 12 rather than 8 drivers you are quite correct Emmzzi - genuinely I hadn't seen that. Thanks. More ammunition for me. Ta