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hassy786

Court trial even though I have already done speed awareness course?

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Hello,

 

Friend of mine is a taxi driver and was caught doing 38mph in a 30mph zone.

He received the NIP and wrote his details on there and agreed with the charge and therefore got given a speed awareness course to do.

He has sat and done his speed awareness course on a computer with webcam and microphone and has references for it too.

 

However he then received a letter stating he needs to go to court and not only for speeding but also for failing to identify driver!

He already said he was guilty for speeding and had sent the letter oFf and then done the test as well afterwards

 

how can they now take him to court for it?

I now have the form to fill where I have to write guilty or not guilty for speeding as well as for failing to identify driver.

Of course I cant just ignore the letter therefore what am I supposed to do?

 

Do I fill the letter again and say im guilty for speeding and not guilty for failing to provide driver details?

He doesnt want to get charged and accused twice when he's already done the speed awareness course.

 

Thanks in advance. 

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Your post is a bit confusing - sometimes you say "he", sometimes you say "I".

 

I suspect the most likely explanation is that your friend (or you) has actually been caught speeding twice, but that only the first NIP/s172 request to name driver was received by him (or you) and the second one has gone astray in the post.  This letter that has been received is probably a Single Justice Procedure notice asking how you plead to both charges relating to the second offence. 

 

Are you absolutely certain that this letter asking for a plea relates to the same speeding offence for which a course was already sat, and not a second speeding offence for which the notice has gone astray?  If you are certain it relates to the offence for which a course has already been done, I'd contact the police and tell them, and get them to confirm in writing that both charges will be dropped.  (If it's not obvious to you whether it's the same charge, I'd ring them and ask).

 

If, as I think is more likely, this is a second speeding offence that he (you) knew nothing about, I believe the usual advice is to plead not guilty to both charges and then in court on the day you approach the prosecutor and offer to plead guilty to speeding if (and only if) they drop the failure to name the driver charge.  There's another poster called Man in the Middle who can explain this better than me - hopefully he'll be along later to help.

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Its "he".

I keep writing he or I as when I normally write posts I write for myself and always write I

therefore now that im writing for someone else, its all a bit confusing as I keep writing he or I at times.

It is definitely a He not I so please ignore that.

 

As for the speeding offence, it is definitely for the same offense not 2 separate offences.

The exact same speed measurement and same road on the letter.

 

I doubt he was doing 38 mph in BOTH speeding offenses.

I think what has happened is the speed awareness course was originally booked for an earlier date however because of corona he received another email where the dates had been forwarded 1 month and the reason being something to do with the virus.

 

Maybe because of that things are delayed and therefore Cambridge constabulary assumed my friend didn't respond on time?

Thats what im guessing?

 

Just dont know if now he should write guilty or not guilty because yes he was guilty for speeding

however hes paid the price for it therefore why should he be charged twice for it? 

 

1 mistake he did make was the NIP notice he sent back,

he didnt send it TRACKED DELIVERY,

he sent it 1st 2nd class post without signature therefore he cant prove that they had received the letter.

 

Thanks.

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can he not directly contact the clarke of the court with proof and explain this to them, and ask them what to do, as it seems to merely be an admin error?

 

dx

 


please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

 

if everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's tomorrow

the biggest financial industry in the UK, DCA;s would collapse overnight.

 

 

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How do we contact the clarke? Thanks.

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Who has written this letter?


please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

 

if everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's tomorrow

the biggest financial industry in the UK, DCA;s would collapse overnight.

 

 

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Just spoke to him on the phone,

He said the first letter came which was the NIP.

 

He wrote his name on there and sent the letter off 1st class.

He then received a 2nd letter asking him if he wants points on the licence or if he wants to do the speed awareness course.

 

He chose to do the speed awareness course and he wrote his debit card details on there

so they charged him the amount for the speed awareness course and sent him the booked date for his course by email.

He has prove for the payment being taken out as well as that he sat the course and completed it.

 

Assuming everything was finished now he then now has received a Single Justice Procedure notice.

Which states he was caught speeding as well as failing to identify the driver.

Now he's lost as he has already done the course and paid the fees therefore why hes receiving this letter/form he doesnt understand. 

 

Surely they wouldn't provide him with an option of speed awareness course or points on license if they hadnt received his NIP surely? Assuming they sent him the speed awareness course should mean they received the NIP stating he was the driver?

So how can he now be accused of not identifying the driver? 

 

This justice procedure notice was given by Cambridgeshire constabulary by the tiny blurred out logo I can see on the form.

 

He says he has contacted Cambridgeshire constabulary and they told him to send any proof of evidence as well as the form and in writing .

 

..write a letter stating your sorry they didn't receive the NIP

however he did send it and he has done the speed awareness course

(Showing proof of it) and then let the court decide on it after?

 

Is this what he should do?

 

Thanks.

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21 minutes ago, hassy786 said:

he then now has received a Single Justice Procedure notice.

 

contact the court that has sent the above and tell them he has already completed the course etc etc.

 

 


please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

 

if everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's tomorrow

the biggest financial industry in the UK, DCA;s would collapse overnight.

 

 

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Can I suggest it might be very unwise for either you or him simply to assume that there can't be two separate speeding offences on the same road at the same speed?  (In fact it might be quite likely).

 

He simply needs to ring up and check whether one offence or two.  If only one offence tell them he's already done the course and ask for written confirmation that the charges will be dropped.  If it's a second offence, do as I said before - plead not guilty to both and then on the day in court offer a plea bargain to plead guilty to the speeding if, but only if, they agree to drop the failure to identify the driver.

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[Had to do another post as too late to edit previous one]

 

Nobody here can definitely tell your friend what to do until he finds out what is happening himself, as no-one here knows.

 

If I were him, I would telephone the police (as it is probably they who are prosecuting him) and ask them what is going on.  If there is only one speeding offence and it's the one he's already done a course for, he tells them that and provides whatever evidence they ask for.  He then asks them to confirm in writing that the second set of charges will be dropped.  If it relates to a second speeding charge (and it might) then he pleads not guilty to both and does a plea bargain as outlined above on the day in court.

 

It might also be a good idea to contact the Clerk of the court as well.  (Belt and braces together never fails).

 

A second thought has just struck me.  Your friend was definitely offered a course originally, and not a conditional offer of a fixed penalty?  If it was a conditional offer, not only must he pay the penalty, he also has to send away his licence.  If he did not do that, they will refund his penalty and he'll be asked to plead.

 

[It is very difficult to help people out third hand.  Can't your friend post himself?  If English is not this first language, can somebody help him 'phoning the police if he does not fully understand the questions and answers?  It's very difficult doing this].

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Turns out you guys where right... This is 2 separate speeding fines.

The one he received he done the awareness course for but the 2nd one he did not receive the NIP for.

 

So considering he does not know anything about it other than the single procedure notice he will write not guilty for speeding and failing to identify driver and then in court he will agree to the speeding only if they drop the charges for failing to identify driver.. is that correct?

 

He is telling me to write a letter for him apologising for not identifying the driver as he didn't receive the letter and to also write that he is guilty of speeding on the letter but he wont take the blame for not identifying driver as he did not receive the letter.... 

 

Would it not be better if he said hes guilty for the speeding and doesn't need to come to court for it and then write not guilty for failing to identify driver come to court?

 

That way hes owned up to his mistake for speeding and will occur penalty points which he said is fine and then as for failing to identify driver he will go to court and explain he did not receive the NIP therefore was not able to write his name on it....

 

Thanks.

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follow your previous thread and maninthemiddles advice...same applies here too..


please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

 

if everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's tomorrow

the biggest financial industry in the UK, DCA;s would collapse overnight.

 

 

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20 hours ago, hassy786 said:

He is telling me to write a letter for him apologising for not identifying the driver as he didn't receive the letter and to also write that he is guilty of speeding on the letter but he wont take the blame for not identifying driver as he did not receive the letter.... 

 

Do not do that! It's a possible route to nine points. 

 

As above, attending court and doing the "deal" is the only realistic route out of this.

I have heard that in some areas they are accepting the deal by letter but you cannot rely on it everywhere.

 

The problem is that at present they cannot prove who the driver was and so cannot succeed with a speeding allegation.

But as soon as a guilty plea is entered to that charge no evidence is needed and a conviction will follow.

That then leaves the defendant to defend the "Failing to provide driver's details" charge with no bargaining tools.

 

It is not easy to defend that charge.

Simply turning up to say "I didn't receive the letter" will not do (otherwise everybody would do it).

The defendant will have to prove to the court's satisfaction that he did not and it is very difficult to prove that something did not happen.

 

The deal cannot normally be handled by a "Single Justice" (SJ).

They sit with a Legal Advisor and deal with guilty pleas "on paper."

There is no prosecutor present and the SJ does not have the authority to drop charges (which is what's required.

 

Your friend should plead Not Guilty to both charges, attend court and offer to do the deal.

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Thata great thank you very much for the advice! Its good to know we can come to you for advice. :)

Now I only have left to sort out the issue where my brother was caught speeding in a car registered to me..

 

I sent the NIP in his name unfortunately 1st class so not signed for or tracked and have not received a reply.

Dont want to end up in court too for failing to identify driver which sounds to me like it might happen as I haven't received a reply yet. Its been about 3/4 weeks since I sent the letter of 1st class.

 

Thank you for all the help!!

 

Thanks.

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One question..

Surely instead of him proving to them he didn't receive a letter..

They should be proving to him that they sent the letter?

 

Don't they send the letters of first class posted or anything therefore to show proof it was sent to the address rather than a "mistake in the office"?

 

They must have proof of this to show him but if they don't then surely they cant accuse him of failing to identify driver?

 

Thanks.

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nope

 

dx

 


please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

 

if everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's tomorrow

the biggest financial industry in the UK, DCA;s would collapse overnight.

 

 

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Nope meaning?

Because im also thinking about my situation where my brother was caught speeding with a car in my name which I sold to him but didn't bother to change the registered keeper as would save adding a new keeper on the car especially we live in the same house anyway.

 

Then I received a letter  for speeding which was him and sent the NIP in his name unfortunately not recorded delivery! (My mistake) now im waiting on the next step

 

however I don't want them to accuse me of failing to identify the driver as well because then it would be a sticky situation where I would have to prove I sent the letter off which I wont be able to do... Therefore I was thinking to get out of it... Instead of saying I sent the letter off.. I can say I didn't get the letter in the first place to send off and if they have proof to show me they sent the letter to my address in the first place?

 

End of the day anyone can say they sent the letter but if there's no proof then possibly I can get away with saying I haven't received it?

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post is deemed to be received 2 days 1st class.... 5 days 2nd class.

 

dx

 


please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

 

if everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's tomorrow

the biggest financial industry in the UK, DCA;s would collapse overnight.

 

 

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And can they prove to me they sent the NIP to me? 

 

Im guessing they should have received my NIP by now but I cant really call them to ask as then they will have it on record that I called up and confirmed I sent a reply back to them :D which will in a way give them proof they sent a NIP out to me and I received it

 

therefore which then leaves me having to prove I didnt receive he NIP?

 

Guess I will just have to wait and wait until my brother gets a letter or I receive another letter from them....

 

Thanks.

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just type stop hitting quote

we know what we've said...

 

i'm not sure what part of MITM's advice, repeated above recently, and first explained to you last november on your other thread link above is not sinking in......

 

Quote

Simply turning up to say "I didn't receive the letter" will not do (otherwise everybody would do it).

 

 

 

 


please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

 

if everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's tomorrow

the biggest financial industry in the UK, DCA;s would collapse overnight.

 

 

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Your not getting what im asking. As much as they can ask me to prove I sent the NIP out. The same I can ask them to prove they sent the NIP out to me. Letters can easily be lost in the post especially with corona virus and royal mail delays therefore it cant be my fault the letter didnt get to me can it? Its their word against mine therefore surely they cant accuse you for something they dont have proof of.

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They will almost certainly be able to prove the letter was posted and that's all they have to do. It is deemed "served" on the recipient two working days later (it must be sent by 1st class post) whether it gets there or not. This is contained in legislation (Interpretation Act, 1978, S7). If it is alleged it was not served then the recipient has to prove that it was not (hence my warning about it being  hard to prove that something did not happen).

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Okay thats perfect thats what I wanted to know. I will just ring them up next few days and ask if they have received my reply yet or not. Not much else i can do

 

Thank you very much.

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Good news. I just asked my brother if he got any letters regarding the speeding and he said yes he received the NIP and hes written his name on there and sent it off now so I should be in the clear now.

 

Hope my friend will get his situation sorted now. Thank you for all your help guys!

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