What are our rights on online purchases from China?

[david501]

During the coronavirus lockdown my wife started getting online adverts from a company called Damensein with some excellent deals on what appeared good quality tops and tacky earrings.

 

As they were presumably coming through Googles ads or adsense, we thought they were kosher, and because you had to spend £89+ to quality for free delivery, we assumed it was coming from the USA. It was, of course, coming from China. 

 

she placed an order for just over £90 and waited patiently after confirmation that she would be advised when the goods were being shipped.

When no advise arrived after a week I checked them out.

 

They have a 96% BAD rating on Trustpilot, with two related companies, Holapick which appears to be their outlet in the USA, and Floryday (worldwide).

From what I can see the poor Americans are treated worse than us (must be something to do with the Donald), they are lucky to receive anything.

 

The Floryday reviews webpage actually warns

"Dear Trustpilot users, Trustpilot has been notified that this business has offered refunds conditional on the removal of negative reviews on Trustpilot. This behavior contravenes our guidelines as it might have a misleading impact on the TrustScore and consumers. The integrity of our community is something we take very seriously. We'll therefore continue our efforts to safeguard the integrity of the platform, and we'll inform our users when we uncover attempts of misuse."

 

Never come across that before. This site also looks heavily doctored with regular postings up to 10 five star reviews in a row where the reviewer has only ever written one review and nothing else in the last year.

 

Anyway, the main complaints are their order seem to take many months to arrive, the order is incomplete yet they deny this, the sizing is way out and the quality is appalling, nothing like the advert. When the customer requests a refund they are told:

 

Our return center is located in Guangzhou, China.

 

According to our return policy, the customer is responsible for return shipping cost and any other related return charges (including possible custom fee). Your refund will be processed after our return center received and inspected the return package.

 

Since International return might result in long waiting time and incur substantial return cost on your side, we recommend some alternative methods to resolve this issue.

 

We would like to offer you 15% cash refund instead of returning the item(s). If there are any sizing issues, you can use this fund to alter the cloth.

 

If you still want to return/exchange the package, you should email us for a return label within 7 days, the aforementioned deadline.

 

You can check the return policy here:https://damensein.com/pages/return-exchange

*Kind reminder: Any addresses on the parcel are not approved as the return address.

Returned package without an authorized return address from customer service representatives will not be refunded or exchanged. *

 

Many of the reviews confirm the company is unknown at the returns address they are given.

 

My questions are:

 

1. My wife has attempted to cancel the order only to be told part of the order was already in transit - (two tops were unavailable and will be refunded).

 

2. They claimed these were shipped on June 6, We insisted they provide consignment number etc and received this after several attempts on Friday.

The system has just updated and this would seem to indicate it started it's journey yesterday, seven days later than they claim.

 

3. We have responded to an online ad in the UK. How are we protected? I know we can cancel the order up to 14 days after they are delivered, but we are responsible for delivery costs. Is this the case if the quality is as bad as others say? 

 

4. We were unaware where the seller was based and they obviously use this to their advantage, can this be the case?

 

Our first action would be to attempt to get a refund through Paypal, which I have done in the past, and if they refuse contact the credit card company used to pay Paypal. I would also contact the ASA and Google about their ads, which I would say are brilliant.

 

Any advice on our rights would be great.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

  

 

[david501]

As I review this post, on the left hand side of the screen under announcements between the tweets and posts are four adverts for the company I am criticising. 

 

This implies that they advertise through CAG and have been carefully vetted which I realise is NOT the case, but you can understand why someone would think that.

 

Does anyone know where these ads are generated from? Is it Google AdSense? Why do they appear on some websites and not others?

[BankFodder]

The ads here are generated by Google AdSense. I don't know about other websites – but they are contextual ads and so somehow Google manages to generate ads to you that refer to what you are writing about the time.

If somebody else next year was writing about a different topic then I expect that each of you would have different ads on your screen.

I'm sorry – we don't like ads – but we don't make any money and we have to keep on going somehow or other. It's all belt and braces and is not helped by the fact that although some people give generous donations – or they can afford – most people don't give us anything despite the free help they receive.

Also – as you are starting to understand, automatically generated ads on any website – are no guarantee of quality at all. And I'm sorry to say that it's probably a bit naïve to imagine that they would be.

I think the big question here is how do you pay? You either used a debit card or a credit card - in which case you should consider contacting your bank with a view to making a chargeback claim or a claim under section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act.

 

[david501]

Thanks for confirming was AdSense, Bank Fodder. Don't worry, I have seen enough pirated software sold this way to realise just how bona fide these ads are. I was just worried about others being taken in. 

 

I paid by Paypal for this and I have had to request chargebacks through them a few times before - always to Chinese companies. I did pay using a Visa card, so I would try section 75 if Paypal get funny, but it is under £100. I wish we had spent another £10 to take it over the threshold. 

[BankFodder]

Thanks. I have a feeling that chargebacks and PayPal don't really work together.

of course it's not helpful now but I think part of the lesson is always to double check the reviews before spending the money. It only takes 5 minutes or so but it can be worth it's weight

 

[david501]

No worries.

 

I will just keep at it, until we get all the money back.

 

They are very tetchy on bad reviews.

[dx100uk]

if paypal don't agree, but they normally do ok..you should do a chargeback to your bank.

done it on Chinese goods of poor quality numerous times.

 

 

 

 

[david501]

 

Thanks dx, I agree.

 

Have yet to come across a Chinese company where I didn't get the money back on quality issues, but plenty of things from there are great. 

 

Just not a great good to crap ratio!

 

Anyway, the refund for the two out of stock tops has arrived, so maybe they have changed their ways. 

Edited June 14, 2020 by david501

[ericsbrother]

with paypal you can open a dispute regarding shipping time, item not as described etc but it will be slow to get anywhere.

Unfortunately you ahve thrown away any protection your bank offers by using paypal so you will have to go by thier procedure.

I find that using the call me option to contact them is the best way of getting sense out of them as the call centre is in Ireland

[david501]

Thanks for that.

 

We received the refund promised already and the order today.

 

Four pairs of earrings were quite nice, my wife likes them, which is all that matters. One doesn't close. 

 

Two tops were ok. Primark quality for Primark prices, so passable. The finishing of the remaining two tops was dreadful, you couldn't even give them to a charity shop.

 

So I will request a refund for £31.75 tonight and warn them of my actions if they refuse. No doubt they will refuse, so I will chase Paypal until they agree one, which I have done before, and always got one in the end.

 

 

 

 

[david501]

Hi,

 

 

 

Before I start complaining to Paypal, ASA, Google ads, etc, I have attached a few photos of the finishing of front hems on one of the tops, which to me is even bad by Chinese standards. They say:

 

"Sorry that you are not satisfied with the item(s).

Please note that customers must respond to every email within 7 days. If not, we will close this case after the aforementioned deadline.

Our return center is located in Guangzhou, China.

 

According to our return policy, the customer is responsible for return shipping cost and any other related return charges (including possible custom fees). Your refund will be processed after our return center received and inspected the return package. Since International returns might result in long waiting time and incur substantial return costs on your side, we recommend some alternative methods to resolve this issue.

 

We would like to offer you a 15% cash refund instead of returning the item(s). If there are any sizing issues, you can use this fund to alter the cloth."

Are they able to insist that the goods are sent back to China when the goods are of a substandard quality? There was nothing on the advert to indicate they were not in the UK.

 

 

I am attaching the original adverts of the two poorly finished tops, and, yes, I can see the hems are neatly frayed on the second top, but there is a big difference between neatly frayed and what we received. 

 

 

pix.pdf

[david501]

I am still waiting to hear back from Paypal, but more annoyed with Trustpilot at the moment. 

 

I have been trying to warn people via Trustpilot about these guys and within hours all my posts have been removed and my account locked, This just happened for the sixth time and nothing has been received from them to say I have done anything wrong and there is no way to contact them.

 

The posts I have submitted typically say:

 

Noracora’s website claim their address is CHICV UK LIMITED, Suite 31a, Philpot House, Rayleigh, Essex, SS6 7HH（NOT RETURN ADDRESS）

 

Noracora are as British as Kim Jong-un. They are really based in Hong Kong and mainland China as one of 111+ websites belonging to ChicV International Holdings Ltd and any search of ChicV will reveal them as one of the World’s leading purveyors of crap clothing.made by poorly paid workers in the unbearably rank sweatshops of Hong Kong and China, in conditions that would not be accepted anywhere else in the World.

 

I am still chasing a refund from Damensein, also a ChicV company, so feel qualified to warn anyone I can, not to make the same mistake I did.

 

ChicV’s MO is:

 

Make very cheap copies of designer clothes they find on the Internet, present great websites with a promise of easy returns and refunds, and, in many cases, imply they are UK or US based.

 

They send out very poorly made, undersized clothes using the cheapest quality material and when angry customers demand refunds, they disclose that they have to be returned to China, and warning them how costly this is and may incur extra duty fees. To help, they jump in with an offer that starts at 15% gradually rising to 50% if persistent.

 

As can be scene on Trustpilot reviews this is how all their sites work, If you notice some have many 5* reviews dig deeper until you come across the bad reviews.

 

So far, I have found 111 ChicV websites and have a further 350 yet to check. The ones so far are:

 

Then I name all the sites.

 

I think in the UK, Europe and America we have a false sense of security that most websites are honest and, anyway, we have the law on our side. When we come across crooks like these guys and they tell us by clicking the BUY NOW button we have agreed to all there terms, we are not prepared for it.

 

How can this be acceptable in 2020?

 

If you check out sister website, floryday,com on Trustpilot they seem ok, so long as you don't dig too deep into the reviews. However, if you check the website and see what you are signing up to, you will see you are agreeing you are responsible for the full costs of returning clothes even if they send the wrong size which is frequently the case. This is even before you find they have to be returned to China.

 

I've tried doing a WHOIS on the websites - all are with GoDaddy and many confirm they are ChicV but owners are hidden on most. If I am right that all 111 websites are part of ChicV then Trustpilot has received nearly 40,000 one star reviews about these guys. If other sites, which I have yet to verify are part of this group, the figure is nearly 60,000.

 

Even if only 1 in every 1,000 of these unhappy people complained to the right channels these crooked sites would soon be a distant memory.

 

I hope that many people have managed to do chargebacks through their banks, cards and Paypal, as this seems the ONLY way you will get it.

 

How are these guys not breaking the law in this day and age? I hope someone comes out with an app which won’t let you make a payment to a new company until you have confirmed you have checked them out on sites like Trustpilot.

 

Can anyone see what I could have said to get me kicked out of Trutspilot? I have seen far worse posts.

 

I posted a comment on Trustpilot on the trustpilot.com review page and within 20 minutes this was removed and the account locked.

Edited June 28, 2020 by david501

[dx100uk]

let it go

 

these scams have been going on for years.

you'll get nowhere bar stressing yourself out

 

pers i'd simply do a chargeback for everything

there is stuff and all anyone can do to you.

 

 

[david501]

Thanks dx, of course you are right, but I am quite enjoying playing games with them while thing are quiet.

 

 

[david501]

Hi, I know dx advised me to let this go, but I would like to check out a point.             

 

I have just spent the last two weeks updating my IT business website and I am nearly finished. I purchased the domain names scamhound.com and scamhound.co.uk, specifically to target companies like ChicV and their 120 websites and we will be starting on that shortly.

 

What I want to know is how much companies can bend the law on the Internet before it is considered broken?

 

I responded to an ad that came to me via Google Adsense, believing I was dealing with a reputable American company. I know we should always read the small print but how many of us do. I buy lots on the Internet every week, knowing if it is not suitable or faulty, I can easily get it exchanged or refunded. That said, I always avoid Chinese sellers.

 

What if the seller knowingly sells shoddy, unsaleable goods on the web stating “If you are not entirely satisfied with your purchase, it is easy to exchange or get a refund. It does say --Customers will be charged for shipping costs based on different delivery rate. Customer also be responsible for the return fee. When you request a refund you find it is NOT easy like they say, They reply:

 

Our return center is located in Guangzhou, China.

According to our return policy, the customer is responsible for return shipping cost and any other related return charges (including possible custom fees). Your refund will be processed after our return center received and inspected the return package. Since International returns might result in long waiting time and incur substantial return costs on your side, we recommend some alternative methods to resolve this issue. We would like to offer you a 15% cash refund instead of returning the item(s). If there are any sizing issues, you can use this fund to alter the cloth.

 

They gradually up their offer to 50% and emphasise the costs of sending things to China and according to Trustpilot many returns come back “Not known at this address.”

 

Can businesses really get away with this in 2020 and shouldn't the seller be automatically be responsible for the return of faulty goods? Before someone says they weren't faulty, just poor quality in your opinion, I purchased 4 summer tops for my wife and two left her boobs totally exposed as they were produced not with a front and a back but two backs. To me, that's faulty.

 

I know I can do a chargeback on Paypal but they are still not taking calls because of covid-19.

 

Edited July 16, 2020 by david501

[Robert63]

Hi,

I recently also bought some goods from China, ( a dog paddling pool which when it arrived was no bigger than a dogs water bowl )

,I managed to get a refund after about 6 weeks of arguing with the Chinese company.

 

I first emailed them a couple of times saying that they had sent me the wrong item and I wanted a refund,

all they would offer was either a 50% discount or I would have to return the item,

 

I then opened a case with PayPal and after a bit of emails back and forth I was offered a full refund if I sent the item back and PayPal offered to pay for my return postage.

It took a few weeks but I got all my money back.

[david501]

Hi Robert,

 

I'm glad you got your money back eventually, but we shouldn't have to go through this Chinese dance where you start off with an offer of a partial refund and ALWAYS end up with a full refund in the end anyway.

 

I just know that for every you and I that see it through to the end there are many that can't be bothered, like most of the friends I've told. 

 

Anyway, if everyone took that attitude we'd all be speaking German now, wouldn't we!!

 

Thanks,

 

David

 

 

I suppose the three key questions I am asking are:

 

1. Can a business insist that the buyer is responsible for costs of returning items that are way smaller or larger than the size ordered to a foreign destination without making it clear in their adverts (websites) it is outside the country of purchase?

 

2. Can they still insist upon the buyer being responsible for carriage when the goods can be quite easily be identified as being faulty by photograph?

 

3. Can the seller imply at point of sale how easy refunds are and then be truthful later, when asked for a refund?

 

To me this is just good, old fashioned fraud, yet the Chinese try to get away with it all the time.

 

[david501]

OK, I found the letter I was looking for:

 

 

Dear Sir/Madam,

 

Reference: [order number]

 

On [date], I placed an order for a [item] and it was delivered by you on [date].

 

I have discovered that the [item] has the following problem: [give details].

 

The Consumer Rights Act 2015 makes it an implied term of the contract that goods be as described, of satisfactory quality and fit for purpose. 

 

Any returns policy that says I have to cover the cost of returning items must only relate to the situation where I change my mind about the item ordered and not where there is a problem with the item. 

 

I should not lose out financially as a result of your breach of contract and accordingly all costs of returning the item should be met by you. 

 

I also require you to confirm you will arrange for [the item] to be collected.

 

I look forward to hearing from you.

 

Yours faithfully,

[Your name]

[ericsbrother]

You have a problem, you cannot make UK law extraterritorial so you are totally reliant upon the selling platform to enforce any terms it applies.

 

Let us assume that even so, you had some rights, how are you going to enforce them, go to China and demand they pay up? chinese consumer law is a very strange thing, it protects peopel to some extent from domestic fraud but specifically excludes any copyright, IP rights ect for foreign countries. Foe example, a Chinese jewellery manufactuer must make a silver bracelet for domestic purposes out of sterling silver (.925) but can stamp any old junk as silver or .925 sterling if it is to be sold abroad and there will be no comeback. the chinese govt doesnt give a rats about foreign customers and the reason why a manufacturer follows the rules is because they want the follow up business, like any other decent company anywhere else in the world.

 

My advice is either buy from a well established wholesaler in China or buy in the UK/EU and you will get the protection you are after. Buying from some tin pot website add-on co will inevitably end in tears