VCS ANPR PCN LBA Now claimform - Overstay of the 1hrs? - St Mary's Gate Retail Park, Sheffield

[HelloDave]

Hello, looking for some help with what do do.

 

Keeper has recieved a Letter Before Claim with regards to an overstay at a carpark that occured over 2 years and 8 months ago.

There are extra debt collection charges on it and threatens legal/court action if not paid.

 

Any advice would be appreciated. 

 

For PCN's received through the post [ANPR camera capture]

 

please answer the following questions.

 

1 Date of the infringement 07/10/2017

 

 

2 Date on the NTK [this must have been received within 14 days from the 'offence' date] No longer have as this but from memory it was received after 14 days of the 'offence'

 

3 Date received See Q2

 

4 Does the NTK mention schedule 4 of The Protections of Freedoms Act 2012? [Y/N?] See Q2

 

5 Is there any photographic evidence of the event? Y

 

6 Have you appealed? [Y/N?] post up your appeal] N

 

Have you had a response? [Y/N?] post it up N/A 

 

7 Who is the parking company? VCS (From memory the NKT was sent from a different company)

 

8. Where exactly [carpark name and town] St Mary's Gate Retail Park Car Park

 

For either option, does it say which appeals body they operate under. N

 

[FTMDave]

37 minutes ago, HelloDave said:

7 Who is the parking company?

VCS (From memory the NKT was sent from a different company)

 

Does the name "Excel" ring a bell?

 

I ask as both Excel & VCS are run by the same owner, and the thicko has previous for mixing them up when he sends out his demands, which of course is good news for you.

 

Normally we say never to correspond with the fleecers, apart from sticking two fingers up to them at the LBC stage.  However, methinks on this one occasion it might be worth sending them a polite letter saying you have mislaid the NTK and could they resend it.  If it really is Excel rather than VCS then you'd be home & dry.  Hang on though and see what other Caggers say this evening.   

[HelloDave]

Thanks

I have looked into the parking company name further and it's looks as though the NKT was quite possibly sent by VCS, it's just that they've changed their logo.

[FTMDave]

An LBA/LBC is a formal notice of intention to start legal action and you need to reply.  If you don't, VCS's MO is to begin legal action, hoping for a default judgement or that the motorist will be terrified of the idea of court and will just cough up.

 

In the past a snotty letter showing VCS would have a fight on their hands in court has often had them scurrying back under their stone (not always, they seem to go through particularly litigious phases). 

 

The problem is knowing what to write, as the original NTK has been chucked.  Can you remember what the fleecers reckoned you'd done wrong?

 

Normally we would never recommend communicating with them (save for the snotty letter) but I'm thinking that if you phoned them this afternoon, all polite & apologetic, saying it was three years ago. and asked for a copy of the NTK, they might well cooperate thinking they're going to be paid.

 

You could SAR them, but that would take time.

 

Hold fire till this afternoon though and see what others have to say who have had years of dealings with this vile company.  

 

 

[HelloDave]

I believe it was for an overstay as the car was photographed exiting the car park almost 2 hours after it entered but I think only 1 hour parking is allowed. This occured at night when the car park was empty and it was dark so no signage was seen. 

 

I know I need to ask for the original NTK but at the same time didn't want to contact them as I havent up till now.

As you say I'll see what others think I should do but I'm probably going to have to bite the bullet and speak to them.

[FTMDave]

Daft question, but this is St Mary's Gate, Sheffield, isn't it?  I just assumed it was then saw there are other car parks with the same name elsewhere in the country!

 

Anyway, I've just had a read through old threads here regarding St Mary's Gate, Sheffield and yes, it's a one-hour parking limit.  Once the immediate problem of the LBA has been dealt with, do some digging and try to find out how long was stated in the original planning permission.  I bet it wasn't one hour.  Councils typically give three hours.

 

On the other threads one motorist - who beat VCS in court - mentioned the signs not being illuminated at night.

 

A recurring point is that VCS don't bother to send out their rubbish in time to create keeper liability, so once we get to see the NTK that'll probably be another string to your bow.

 

Can I ask why you went there in the evening?  I ask as the motorist above went to the theatre, and it's damn obvious that a theatre or cinema performance takes more than one hour!

 

Anyway, wait till say 3pm this afternoon to see if others disagree, then ring them.  Don't out yourself as the driver, just say you've got this letter and you can't remember anything about it after three years and can they send a copy of the PCN. 

 

 

[HelloDave]

Cheers FTMDave.

 

The signs weren't illuminated hence why they weren't seen. 

 

I'm fairly certain the NTK wasn't sent out in time, just a shame I don't still have it. The visit was for a restaurant round the corner which is why the car was there for over an hour.

 

I'm also very intrigued as to how they have details of the address they have sent the LBC to as it is different to the address that the NTK was sent to. I have no vehicles or a driving licence registered to this address and I am not on the open register. 

 

 

[HelloDave]

Update: I contacted them via email and they have sent me copies of the NTK. The issue date is 9/11/17 so over a months after the alleged offence. 

Is there a guide of how I should now deal this on another topic?

 

Cheers

[dx100uk]

read the link you filled out for post 1

[ericsbrother]

of course they replied because you broke our golden rule and emailed them.

 

you have made other interesting observations so you need to explain.

Is the address they sent the NTK to your registered address as far as the keeper details go?

Is the second address a current address for the service of legal documants and if so have you updated the keeper details for the vehicle?

If the answer to that is yes you need to ask the DVLA who has accessed your keeper detail, when and for what purpose.

Basically if they have made 2 enquiries the second one is unlawful

 

lastly, who sent the NTK, was it Excel or VCS and what do the signs at the site say, Excel or VCS.

 

get reading up on them or you will screw yourself.

Once you have all of the details you need to respond but post up what you have found here first and we can help you with a tailored response.

[HelloDave]

Currently uploading my NTK now. 

 

I needed to get a copy of my NTK as they had sent an LBC which is adviced not to ignore so I had no other choice but to contact them for it.

This was all that was said:

"Good Afternoon.

 

I have recently received a letter before claim with regards to alleged breach of terms and conditions on 07/10/17. Reference *********. Vehicle registration ********. 

 

As I'm sure you can appreciate this dates back to almost 3 years ago and as a result am going to need a copy of the original notice to keeper. Whilst I wait for a response I expect you will put on hold the start of any legal proceedings."

 

The letter the NTK was sent to is the address that the keeper is registered to.

The letter the LBC was sent to is used for some legal documents but other legal documents including keeper details are registered to the original address the NTK was sent to as it is still in use.

 

Not had a day off work in 2 weeks so I'll use my day off wisely and get reading up as you advice.

[HelloDave]

Updated:

 

For PCN's received through the post [ANPR camera capture]

 

please answer the following questions.

 

1 Date of the infringement 07/10/2017

 

2 Date on the NTK [this must have been received within 14 days from the 'offence' date] 09/11/2017

 

3 Date received  Too long ago to remember but after 09/11/2017

 

4 Does the NTK mention schedule 4 of The Protections of Freedoms Act 2012? [Y/N?] N

 

5 Is there any photographic evidence of the event? Y

 

6 Have you appealed? [Y/N?] post up your appeal] N

 

Have you had a response? [Y/N?] post it up N/A

 

7 Who is the parking company? VCS

 

8. Where exactly [carpark name and town]  St Mary's Gate Retail Park Car Park - Sheffield

 

Notice_09-11-2017..pdf

[dx100uk]

so as spotted before the NTK is out of time.

 

https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/407545-vcs-anpr-pcn-claimform-overstay-st-marys-gate-retail-park-sheffield-woncosts/

[FTMDave]

The thread dx has put up a link to is the one I mentioned in post 6, the motorist was there in the evening and she saw VCS off in court.

 

At the moment you're on VCS's list of motorists who have received an LBC, you need to show them that they would have a fight on if they were stupid enough to take you to court.  Wait for EB to come on and okay a snotty letter, but I would suggest something like the below, addressed to Simon Renshaw-Smith at VCS's address

 

Dear Simple Simon,

 

cheers for your Letter Before Claim which I had a good chuckle at.

 

Your NTK is out of time and anyway no-one can read your silly signs in the dark as you're too tight to stick 50p in the meter.

 

Remember your hammering in court on 21 February last year?  If you want another thrashing then fine, go for it, I shall enjoy seeing you off, getting costs for unreasonable behaviour under CPR 27.14(2)(g) and spending the cash on a nice post-lockdown holiday while laughing at you.

 

 

 

[ericsbrother]

 you could add " when you have licked your sore bits I may well then sue you for breach of the DPA/GDPR, remember VCS v Phillip, Liverpool CC dec 2016?"

[FTMDave]

Right then -

 

 

Dear Simple Simon,

 

cheers for your Letter Before Claim which I had a good chuckle at.

 

Your NTK is out of time and anyway no-one can read your silly signs in the dark as you're too tight to stick 50p in the meter.

 

Remember your hammering in court on 21 February last year?  If you want another thrashing then fine, go for it, I shall enjoy seeing you off, getting costs for unreasonable behaviour under CPR 27.14(2)(g) and spending the cash on a nice post-lockdown holiday while laughing at you the whole time.

 

When you have licked your sore bits I may well then sue you for breach of the DPA/GDPR.  Remember VCS v Phillip, Liverpool CC December 2016?

 

 

- send it off by normal post tomorrow from the post office and get a free Certificate of Posting.

 

The reason we say not to use e-mail is because the PPC can then send you court documents at one minute to the deadline and catch you out.  With snail mail they can't do this.

 

There are no guarantees of course, but letting Simon know he'd have a battle on his hands in court has often had him squirming back under his stone.

 

However, best to plan for the worst-case scenario and this does eventually get to court.  Is the car park local to you?  If so, it would be great to get photos of the carp signage in the dark. 

 

Also look up the planning permission that the council gave for the car park, it is highly unlikely to be for only one hour.

 

BTW, is the restaurant part of the retail park?  It would be ludicrous to give a limit of one hour for people eating in a restaurant. 

[HelloDave]

Brilliant cheers for that. Let's see if he backs down now. 

I've had a look into the planning permission and it looks as though it was granted in 1994 so there isn't much information but I'll go digging further if I need to.

No surprises that no other planning permission has been put in for any of the signage that is there. 

[ericsbrother]

There is a chance that this will be the end of the matter but it is less than 50/50.

What normally happens is they issue a claim and hope that you poo yourself and pay up as the particulars of the claim are generic rubbish but the matter gets dragged out as far as a week before the hearing date in the hope you will give in to pressure and pay them somehting. This pressure will normally arrive by email, along with an offer to settle for a lower amount which may be as late as the night before the hearing date.

 

I got a phone offer to settle for a cople of hundred instead of a near £700 they were asking for  

A DAY AFTER THE HEARING which they had failed to attend.

( they got my details from the occupiers of my previous address which they insisted on contacting instead of my current one)

 

you still have to plan for the event even if the likelihood of it actually hapening is very slim and a well argued and laid out defence is the decider for them to drop the matter

[HelloDave]

Thanks for the heads up. I'll go digging straight away then just in case it comes to it so I've got more of a defence to throw at them.

They really do try their luck. 

 

At what point would you recommend doing a SAR? I'd love to know what illegal method they used to get the address they used. 

[dx100uk]

you don't

and I doubt simon attained your details by any illegal (criminal) method

simply applied to the DVLA as any PPC can.

 

 

[ericsbrother]

IF they sue you do a CPR 131.14 request for sight of documants they rely on to make their case. They dont respind and that menas yu can rubbish them for not doing so.

they get the NTK wrong so you can sue the for breach of the GDPR- not telling the truth to the DVLA to obtain your keeper details- but keep this separate from their claim if they go for the big one as it will akke them more likely to continue rather tha drop it. Go for them afterwards if you are minded to.

[honeybee13]

Thread reopened.

[HelloDave]

Hey Everyone.

 

So after sending Simple Simon a letter 11 months ago in reply to a Letter Before Claim I've now had a Notification of Instruction from ELMS Legal. Just wondering if this is something that I need to reply to?

 

Also, I never got to the bottom as to how he got the address they're sending these letters to because the DVLA still dont have it as my driving license is registered elsewhere.

Edited May 17, 2021 by HelloDave
Typo

[dx100uk]

We can all instruct our dogs to sit

if they do is another matter....

 

 

[Gick]

Where your driving licence is registered is neither here nor there. It is the Registered address for the vehicle that is pertinent here. What is on the V5c (log book in old money)?