CEL PCN Claimform - White Cross Business Park***Claim Discontinued*** now going for GDPR Breach claim

[AndyOrch]

Makes no odds if they discontinue their claim...your CC proceeds on its own merts.

 

Andy

[BankFodder]

I understand that you use a private/work parking space on land which belongs to them and that you have to drive across another car park area in order to access it.

I understand that there is no other access to your work parking space.

I understand that CEL then issued a PCN and an hour trying to enforce it against you in the courts.

I understand that you have defended – although I haven't seen a defence and also you've counterclaimed – possibly on the basis of harassment.

 

I understand that the claimants have now decided to withdraw the case and they have issued a notice of discontinuance.

You have been advised to drop the counterclaim – that you have decided not to.

I've looked at your counterclaim, and I think that it has no merit and you are simply making your life complicated and that you should go along with the discontinuance and then try to put it behind you.
I'm sure it's been all very stressful – but the advice given here as to the counterclaim is good advice. That's what you came here for and you would be very wrong not take it.

I haven't seen your defence – and I would be interested to see it. I suspect that you haven't based your defence on the right kind of argument which is that if I understand the relationship between the two car parks correctly, then there is an easement and you are entitled as a matter of law to cross the first car park in order to access the second in order to take up your parking space.

The work car park is what is called a "dominant estate" and the one that you cross is a "servient estate".

The law would not permit a piece of land to exist without some way of accessing it and so where there is only one way through then there is automatically an easement – or right of way over it in order to reach the dominant piece of land.

This would have been the basis of my defence and frankly I think it would be unassailable.

Maybe you'd like to post up a copy of the defence that you originally produced – redacted. I notice that it was removed at some point.

Also, I notice that you tend to take long breaks from attending to this thread. I think that's unhelpful



 

[dx100uk]

1 hour ago, burmafriday said:

c) we actually have formidable proof that their actions were not only reckless but unnecessary ...

the area of land where we parked was not in their jurisdiction to police.

eh?^^

 

as for the rest

the post above yours from EB already details your course of action

exhaust When you have whipped them in court a complaint to the ICO and the DVLA copied to your MP should be made. FIRST.

[burmafriday]

Hi All,

 

Thank you for your valuable comments and getting back fast.

 

Firstly, I like to apologise for the long gap.

 

You are right Bankfodder, I should have informed CAG that things were delayed.

It started with CEL not submitting their DQ.

 

We informed the court of this only to find that the Court gave them extension.

We have no idea if they applied to the court as we were not informed neither by CEL or the court.  

Then from out of the blue, we learnt the court granted them one-month extension.

 

the last three months was just wasted till finally a hearing date was set for a day in October.

All docs. either side were to be submitted by 01 Oct. which CEL failed to do and then we received this Discontinuance Notice

 

I will get back to CAG with a copy of our defence as soon as I have redacted.

 

In the meantime, after they submitted their Notice of Discontinuance, on Tuesday, in the evening they sent a private email to us saying that as they discontinued the case, they suggested that we should like-wise “discontinue our counterclaim”. They gave us 7 days to agree and said they reserve the right to show their letter to the Judge.

 

Yesterday evening, they sent an email offering to reimburse our costs for counterclaim if we discontinued and again gave us 7 days to agree.

 

Again, I have to redact the documents to post on CAG and I will get that done and forward them.

 

Should I use PM to all in this discussion or simply post on CAG?

 

Thank you

Warm regards

BF

 

[dx100uk]

well done then

they threw the towel in and are paying your fee for the counterclaim if you drop it.

 

thats a really important win win as it's now obvious they know the game is up about these breaches of GDPR Regulation.

 

the choice is yours really, you could get a couple £100's out of 'em if you did continue, but you need to carefully weigh this up against the other issues you presently are dealing with....and what numerous siteteam members seem to be recommending before and after we knew you were CC'ing... and thats never do that and you case is not very strong.

 

we don't really need to see anything.

we know what they look like.

 

 

[FTMDave]

Brilliant getting them to discontinue.

 

Magnificent that they have offered to pay your counterclaim costs.

 

I agree with dx.  Grab their snivelling climbdown offer with both hands.  Your counterclaim is not strong and could easily backfire against you.

 

If you want to continue the fight later and give them even more of a kicking then you could go after them for breaching your data protection.

[burmafriday]

Hi,

 

dx and Dave - Thank you for your messages.

 

1.)  If you don't need to see the defence and CC then OK. 

 

2.)  As for the CC - i understand your comments. Its an issue for us and we need to discuss it between us. 

 

3.)  In the mean time, let me advise you that we do have a formidable case because we can prove that they acted absolutely recklessly and had no right to issue the PCN.

 

More specifically, we can prove and have proven in our CC that they should not have issued the PCN in the first place.  They were told by the landlords of the private land on which my wife parked to stop issuing PCN's on their Private land (Cease and Desist (CD) order) and yet rather than dropping the case altogether at that point in time (which was way before the case started) they chose to continue to the bitter end. 

 

4.)  We have also declared right from the outset, our fees and costs which are actual fees we charge to our clients.  We told them why they were valid and that we will claim these fees in full. We think that is the reason why they want us to Discontinue with out CC.

 

4.)  Of course, now they have seen our defence and CC - which included a copy of the CD they are dropping their claim and they want us to stop the counter claim. 

 

5.) If we discontinue our CC, then we will not be able to serve them a writ later on our claim.

 
We will discuss this and get back to CAG.

 

Thank you again  

Warm regards

BF

 

[burmafriday]

Hi All, 

 

Firtly, thank you to all for your help and suggestions so far. I really am very grateful.

 

We have had numerous, very in dept  discussions and my wife is very, very keen to progress with the counter claim. 

 

I want to establish why you say we have little chance and that our counter claim does not have much merit? We note your comments that we will only receive about £200  at best.

 

Firstly, we have declared the cost from the beginning and these are very real costs we submitted. My wife, whilst retired, (only retired because she has to look after her ill parents and myself) still commands these rates in her industry. We did not  pull these figures out of the air. Secondly, defending this irresponsible writ has been a serious amount of work. CEL had broken every CPR rule. They did not copy us and submit their appliations always late.

 

In the meantime, having submitted their application to discontine the case, they now contacted us to say that as they have discontinued, our counter claim is now finished and we cannot continue with it. Of course we have ignored this.

 

We have 28 days to apply for a Stay to their appliation for discontinuance and our counterclaim is surely still valid, irrespective of whether they discontinue their claim or not.

 

Have a great weekend.

Best/BF

 

 

 

 

[FTMDave]

Firstly, what you've achieved so far deserves a standing ovation!  Not only have they wet themselves re their own case they actually want to pay your counterclaim costs.  I've read loads of cases of PPCs being humiliated in court but never one like yours.  They have taken a totally-deserved right hiding.  Well done!

 

It's precisely because of the brilliant work you've done that virtually all the regulars here are concerned you could throw part of it away with the counterclaim.  You talk about your wife's industry but then logically someone who delivers pizzas would ask for a different hourly rate.  The court will probably have an amount it considers reasonable.  I've heard the figure of £19 (or £19.50, not sure, say £20 for easy maths!) being used in small claims for preparation costs.  £2000 / £20 = 100 hours preparation.  You can't really claim you've put 100 hours into preparing for the case.  

 

You want £500 for harassment.  The court sets a very high bar for harassment.

 

We're not saying just to give in.  Going on to really teach these crooks a lesson is exactly what they deserve (and your wife deserves too for everything she's had to put up with).  An alternative strategy would be to accept their £115 and draw a line under this case ...

 

... and then clobber them for a GDPR breach.  I've seen £250 as the base figure, but for all the reasons you've stated theirs is an extremely serious breach, so maybe go for £1000.

 

Have a good weekend you too - the football went well this afternoon for me so I'm in a good mood at this end!

[lookinforinfo]

I agree with FTM dave that you should drop the counter claim.

 

Even if you win with it, you could still have to pay CEL's Court costs.

Crazy but it's true.

 

A far better way would be to go for breaching your GDPR which could bring in around £500 with no risk of having to pat their costs.

 

Better still would be for you to play hardball with them now and go for the GDPR breach from them without having to pay for the Court fee.

 

At the same time go for your other costs for the time you took to defend yourself etc .etc.

Good luck whatever you decide.

[dx100uk]

urm.. not sure if you win you'd still be liable to pay their costs...

but.

 

as i said long ago..

 

drop the CC

raise a sep claim if you think it's holds water.

 

 

[brassnecked]

Might be better to drop CC get them to pay your CC cost then go after them as a new move under GDPR easy win there as by their own admission and actions have admitted they had no right to access and process your data.

[burmafriday]

Dear Dave, Lookinforinfor, dx and brassnecked.

 

Thank you for your suggestions and advice.

OK I will advise my dear wife accordingly and try and convince her to follow it.

 

I will definitely need your help to claim for their breach of GDPR  as both my wife and I are unfamiliar with GDPR  and its beach. Neither of us know what GDPR these guys have breached and how we can claim. 

 

So I guess the first thing to do will be to try and negotiate for not only our court fees but also for what ever else we can claim from them (as LookingforInfo advised) 

 

But I can forsee that they would stipulate full and final settlement and include some clause so that we can not take any further action against them......

 

But, assuming that does not happen, once that aspect is settled,

we can then claim against GDPR. Is that the "proper" sequence?

 

thank you again

 

All the best/BF

 

Edited October 18, 2020 by burmafriday

[brassnecked]

GDPR is the regulations which mandate how they can access and process data it supercededs the provisions in Tthe data protection Act by making them stricter.  they breached GDPR when they asked DVLA for keeper data as they had no lawful reason to do so she wasn't parking on land under their control, merely using a right of access, their chucking in the towel so completely is evidence of that, the y want you to go away as they know they have messed up.

[burmafriday]

Dear All, 

 

Thank you so much for all your support.

Neither of us were aware of using GDPR till  you put us right.

We shall follow your advice and get back to you in a few days.

 

Warm regards

BF

[dx100uk]

[AndyOrch]

Be aware that making a separate claim under GDPR is not as straightforward as making a part 7 money claim.There are risks and costs associated subject to what track its placed in.

 

It is possible to add an additional claim to a Counter Claim ...which would keep the claim in the same track and part of the Part 20 counterclaim.

 

https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/civil/rules/part20#20.7

 

Andy

[burmafriday]

Hi Andy,

 

Thank you for your message. I was just about to post a message regarding the latest developments so your note is very timely

 

Regarding latest developments the following is the situation

 

Dear All,

 

1. We received a notice from CEL that because they have discontinued their claim, they consider the matter is now closed as we have not submitted our counter claim, However, my wife replied to the email that the Counter Claim was attached to the Defence Documents which was submiteed and copied to them.

 

In any event they knew that there is a Counter Claim because they asked us to drop it within 7 days and then they offered to pay our court fee only. !!

 

2. Firstly, there is an issue here. CEL submitted their notice of discontinuance 2 days after the deadline for their court fees to be paid. And also, as far as we are aware, they have not paid their court fees.

 

3. Surely their case should be struck out by the court for this failure to pay their fees on time - irrespective of their submission of the Notice of Discontinuance two days after the deadline date which they obviously made after the receipt of the Defence Documents.

 

4. As for their comment that we have not submitted our counter claim, this is definitely not the case as we made the Couter Claim and submitted this when we replied to their writ. So, as far as we are concerned, the counter claim is still very valid

 

5. As we are within our 28 days limitation, we have not advised the court whether we are accepting their notice of discontinuance or not. We acknowledged its receipt only. We have submited the Case Plan to the court today.

 

6. Although it was not stated that we have to copy CEL, we are copying them anyway

 

7. As advised earlier to CAG we will follow CAG’s advice but we will action this before the hearing date

 

8. However having had the latest advice from Andy, 

a. should we add the GDPR claim as an additional claim, and

b. should we add the County Council as an additional party to the counter claim as previously advised.  

 

thank you

Warm regards

BF

 

 

 

[AndyOrch]

Quote

We have submited the Case Plan to the court today.

 

What exactly is a " case plan " 

[brassnecked]

just be very careful, the court has confirmed their discontinuance?

[AndyOrch]

The courts do not confirm Discontinuance BN...the claimant is responsible for serving Notice N279 on the defendant.

[brassnecked]

oops was thinking of something else thanks Andy.

[FTMDave]

burmafriday,

 

as said upthread, your case is unique, I've never seen the PPC give in and then offer to pay counterclaim costs!  For that reason I've tried to ask advice from Site Team members with a hell of a lot more experience than me, as your case is so out of the ordinary.

 

As said many times, many/most/all Caggers think you should drop the counterclaim.  Maybe humiliate CEL further and say you want to receive their cheque before you withdraw.

 

Regarding GDPR, you've mentioned that you know that they know that the PCN should never have been issued.  Can you give us a few more details please on this point?  It will be important to show that they deliberately obtained your data from the DVLA when they had no reason to do so.

[brassnecked]

Proof of what DX is asking would drop them right in it.

[burmafriday]

Dear All,

 

So Sorry we have been extremely busy with my work and family emergencies as my outlaws, who are in their mid and late eighties are very ill and they needed medical attention at hospitals. 

 

Andy - Case plan is simply a sheet issued by the court to confirm who will be attending for the both parties and at what time the people will each arrive -  apparently, attendies from either side may no arrive together at the court due to Covid.

 

BN - The Court has not confirmed the discontinuance. A Judge at the Court has to agree to the Discontinuance but that has not yet taken place. We have 28 days to submit a stay to this notice. 

 

FTMDave – I have always followed CAG advice since the first day I spotted the site and joined. CAG has helped me on numerous occasions. My wife did not want to drop the Counter Claim so it was essential I support her and try and talk her out of it gently.

 

The PCN should never have been issued in the first place because my wife’s parking area is on a private piece of land. A company leased that area of land (Call it Area A) from the main owner. The buildings in Area A are sub-let out to various tenants with Parking facilities; of which, the company my wife worked for is one such tenant.

  

To reach Area A, my wife has to drive through the main car park (Area B) of the main owner.

 

It is only Area B which Claimants are authorised to police. Area A is NOT under their jurisdiction so they cannot police there. This is still the case to this day and more specifically, this is something which the Claimant is fully aware. There is an agreement between the lessors of Area A and the main owner of Area B and it is written in this agreement. This, the  owner of Area B would instruct the Claimant,  not to police Area A.

 

After the Claimant issued the PCN to my wife, the solicitors of the Lessors of Area A, issued a cease and desist order to them and notified the solicitors of the owner of Area B wherein they stated clearly that this act was illegal and in breach of the terms of the lease. So, all the Claimant had to do was to cancel the PCN. We have a copy of this letter and so we can substantiate it.

 

BN + FTMDave – So, there you have it. This is the explanation you wanted. They were told to stop the case and drop it.  

 

But instead, the Claimant pursued the PCN relentlessly even after my wife pleaded with them to stop the matter and cancel the PCN and explained the situation with copies of the cease and desist  letter.

  

We are following CAG’s advice and to do that properly, we need to notify the Court  where:

a.       We will apply to the court to have the Notice of Discontinuance set aside.

b.       We will also apply to the court to add an additional case against the Claimants for obtaining data on my wife falsely.

c.       We will also apply to the Court to add an additional Defendant to our counter claim – that being the bosses of the Claimant – the owner of Area B

 

After submission of these applications, along the lines suggested by CAG, we will negotiate a settlement with the Claimants

 

Any further advice from CAG on (b) and (c) above will be very helpful and very welcome.

 

Thank you

BF

 

 

Edited October 23, 2020 by burmafriday
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