Jump to content

You can now change your notification sounds by going to this link https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/index.php?/&app=soundboard&module=soundboard&controller=managesounds

 

You can find a library of free notification sounds in several places on the Internet. Here's one which has a very large selection https://notificationsounds.com/notification-sounds

 

 

BankFodder BankFodder

 

BankFodder BankFodder


Consumer2020

Vodafone Case From 2016!

Recommended Posts

Well if this is the quality of the documents that you are handing out to people when you are trying to deal with this extremely serious matter then you will tend to lose sympathy.

I'm sorry to say but looking at the history of what's happened, you've got people who apparently tried to start a business so you imagine that they are being businesslike.

They walk into Vodafone store and walk out with a contract in the wrong name and the wrong kind of account - and apparently they don't notice.
They then start sending large amount of text messages which may or may not be contrary to the terms of service – we don't know because we still haven't seen a copy of the terms and conditions or the comparator.
Then a dispute arises – and eventually there is apparently a settlement but you then managed to misunderstand the settlement so that everyone thinks it's a done deal so that you then have to reopen it.
And after all this time, you are only just now become aware that the documents that you are handing out our pretty well illegible.
We also have to go through an extensive correspondence for you to identify our admin email address

Have you tried using Adobe Scan? This is an app which exists at least on the Google play store – and I suppose it is on the Apple Store as well and this should allow you to scan your documents into a text format.

You should not scan the entire document, you should scan it a column at a time.

It would also help if you would isolate the actual terms which you are referring to – but of course without the comparator it's not a lot of use.

I have to say that if you mean that you have been sending two groups of text per week of up to 5000 members in each group – then this could add up to 10,000 text per week – over quite a number of weeks then this sounds strongly like "volume messaging" to me.

I suppose we would eventually need to understand what Vodafone's definition is. Also I'd be interested to know whether the sole trader contract which you entered into was very different from the business contract that you intended to enter into and whether that business contract would have permitted a high level of texting.

These are all important questions to ask and if you haven't furnished this kind of evidence to CISAS they may well end up making a decision purely on the evidence in front of them. And you can be certain that Vodafone would have done a far more efficient job of putting their case before CISAS – partly because they are used to it – and partly because they are probably better organised than you are.


 


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Still waiting for the settlement letter please


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wait, hang on a second.

 

I would like you to understand that I really feel distressed by this case itself already. I am trying to provide as much information for anyone who might be in similar situation to know that they are not alone out there being anxious when dealing with this sort of frustration. 

 

1 hour ago, BankFodder said:

Well if this is the quality of the documents that you are handing out to people when you are trying to deal with this extremely serious matter then you will tend to lose sympathy.

 

1 hour ago, BankFodder said:

And after all this time, you are only just now become aware that the documents that you are handing out our pretty well illegible.

 

1 hour ago, BankFodder said:

We also have to go through an extensive correspondence for you to identify our admin email address

 

I called CISAS just now and they confirmed that the image is clear and that they can read it and if adjudicator would need any further assistance they would contact me. I am trying figure out what medium to use for T&Cs to provide as much information as possible for everyones benefit, but do I need to feel patronised for trying to be constructive? If you can answer some things that is amazing, if not, no hard feelings; I will be fine and can find solicitors on Law Society or elsewhere too. I know how to Google things and find a pdf to text converter, it just time consuming so I hope I manage to do it sometime soon. Until then we can just leave this thread open and it will all still be fine.

 

1 hour ago, BankFodder said:

They walk into Vodafone store and walk out with a contract in the wrong name and the wrong kind of account - and apparently they don't notice.

 

Yes, that is what actually happened and I explained what is the evidence for this in my initial post.

 

1 hour ago, BankFodder said:

Then a dispute arises – and eventually there is apparently a settlement but you then managed to misunderstand the settlement so that everyone thinks it's a done deal so that you then have to reopen it.

 

So, what is wrong with that? I am learning now how to complain and take a stand, so I thankfully managed to explain and sort it out. You seem to keep misunderstanding that I have been really distressed by this case, yet I am trying to be as polite as I can and explain things for the service of all here -- and so was CISAS on their platform. I am trying to figure out whether you are being ironical to help me getting prepared for some tougher argument, because now this is being a bit too challenging. 

 

1 hour ago, BankFodder said:

I'm sorry to say but looking at the history of what's happened, you've got people who apparently tried to start a business so you imagine that they are being businesslike.

 

In some cases it is hard to understand the other side, including you here when you might be using dictation software. It is completely reasonable to inquire about the other sides position and sort the matter out to the satisfaction of both sides. 

 

1 hour ago, BankFodder said:

I suppose we would eventually need to understand what Vodafone's definition is. Also I'd be interested to know whether the sole trader contract which you entered into was very different from the business contract that you intended to enter into and whether that business contract would have permitted a high level of texting.

 

I think in both cases we are speaking about the same business agreement because a business either run by a sole trader or by a limited company is in both cases still a business, but the problem was their agent thought that I as a sole trader run a limited company business, since limited company was clearly listed on the agreement.

 

1 hour ago, BankFodder said:

And you can be certain that Vodafone would have done a far more efficient job of putting their case before CISAS – partly because they are used to it – and partly because they are probably better organised than you are.

 

So far -- as mainly outlined in my initial post and also judging by their response in the CISAS platform -- I have been very unconvinced by Vodafone's efficiency except for that one occasion when I reached out to one of their directors. 

 

1 hour ago, BankFodder said:

These are all important questions to ask and if you haven't furnished this kind of evidence to CISAS they may well end up making a decision purely on the evidence in front of them.

 

I can fully appreciate that and all I want is to be treated fairly as per all the associated legislation. I am very certain treatment so far has been extremely unjust but in any case I will respect the outcome on the arbitration and then decide whether I want to take further steps. 

 

As for the confidential document I would prefer to learn first whether I can disclose it under certain conditions, such as this one where it is supposed to benefit the defence of my actual case. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, BankFodder said:

I have to say that if you mean that you have been sending two groups of text per week of up to 5000 members in each group – then this could add up to 10,000 text per week – over quite a number of weeks then this sounds strongly like "volume messaging" to me.

 

I can absolutely appreciate your perspective, however the fact is that we had a business agreement, we had unlimited texting plan, we were texting for business and we were not told or warned what Vodafone would consider abusive.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Also, I feel completely comfortable preparing my case on my own, if anything I have learned through this that I have very strong interest in law. Hence, the most helpful thing for someone to do, would probably be to reference all the legislation relevant for this case. I enjoy reading all the acts and looking long term it will be probably more impactful for me if I learn how to discover on my own things such as how much can claim for all the listed things. I believe deep learning about something so practical as how to make a legal stand for yourself is very important. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

First of all I'm a bit concerned that you are considering sending this case out to solicitors. Believe me, they will simply charge you a load of money and end up shuffling correspondence around and then eventually try to persuade you to take some kind of compromise because they want to get the file off the table and move on to the next case.

Even if eventually you decide to go to solicitors, you will save money and also have much more powerful control over them if you let us help you examine the case with you in order to really understand your position. However, I don't see any need to go to solicitors at all. This is really not a matter of law – and even if it were I would consider that solicitors would be out of their depth.
I defy you to find any firm of solicitors who has any experience or background in this kind of dispute.
The only people who do have experience in this kind of dispute will be Vodafone's own solicitors or the solicitors acting on behalf of other telecoms companies – and of course they won't be working for you.

I'm still waiting to receive a confidential copy of the settlement letter – unless you decide not to send it.

So I understand in fact that there is only one set of terms and conditions although you did earlier on say that there was an agreement referencing the "wrong terms and conditions" which led me to believe that there was another set of terms and conditions and that this was what was causing the dispute. A contractual ambiguity.

In fact I now understand from you that there was only one set of terms and conditions – presumably the one which you have posted up – and it is now a matter of interpretation.

Maybe you could find the actual cause within those terms and conditions and post those up. If you took a close-up – in focus – photograph of the particular clause you are referring to then we can start have a look at that.

Have Vodafone never given you any basis for their differing interpretation?


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, BankFodder said:

Still waiting for the settlement letter please

 

If I would send you this via email, it would also mean I would have to reveal my or my company's identity automatically, since I dont have burner emails or anything like that. I have to say I would prefer to stay anonymous until I understand better any implications that sharing any confidential information might have. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You say you want to be pointed to the relevant law. But it's really very wide. You are referring to the law of contract on one hand and there also seems to be data protection issues on the other hand.

The contractual issues here seem to be based on an interpretive disagreement – but we don't have enough information from you yet to know precisely what it is that is being interpreted because we haven't seen the relevant clause. Also we don't understand the basis of your interpretation of that clause and we do understand the basis of Vodafone's interpretation of that clause.

Because these are interpretive differences, I'm afraid you won't find any discrete easily identifiable legal parcel that will give you the answer. Apart from anything else, English law doesn't work like that. English law is all about reasonable interpretations - and that is why we have a case law system – as opposed, for instance to civil law jurisdictions in Europe where law is completely written down and although interpretations have to be made, at the end of the day they can always fall back on the written word.

That doesn't happen in this jurisdiction – especially with areas of law like contract. Especially with contract law as it applies to businesses which is considerably less prescriptive than contract law as it applies to consumers.

We really do need to see the clause in question which seems to have caused so much problem and then we need to understand how this causes been interpreted by Vodafone and also by yourself.

The data protection issues are much clearer because data protection is a codified law and it is much simpler to point to inaccurate processing – which is a legal duty and it seems that Vodafone may have breached this. However, estimating the damages for breach of data protection law is rather more difficult – especially when you are dealing with damages for distress – which is one of the heads of damage which is available under data protection legislation.


 


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Of course it's up to you if you want to send me the settlement letter. I don't know what you think I'm going to do with it – post it up on Facebook maybe?

I don't think it will do you any harm to see the letter in confidence – and at least we would get an angle on what has been said and what you have apparently agreed to.

We receive lots of secrets from people who come to this forum for help – but if you don't want to send the letter then that's fine. Only you didn't say so earlier on so I've been waiting for it.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Your contract was in 2016 – and I can't seem to get hold of any terms and conditions of that date from the Vodafone website.

However, I have found this https://www.vodafone.co.uk/business/business-mobile-plans/unlimited-data-plans on their current website. Is there any chance that this reflects what you bought?


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 09/06/2020 at 14:05, BankFodder said:

First of all I'm a bit concerned that you are considering sending this case out to solicitors. Believe me, they will simply charge you a load of money and end up shuffling correspondence around and then eventually try to persuade you to take some kind of compromise because they want to get the file off the table and move on to the next case.

 

Thanks for your perspective, anything helps as I am exploring this. As an entrepreneur I have a bit of a different strategy, so in this case I called a few companies I found on Law Society to inquire about the case and learned a few things this way. Initial assessment is pro-bono anyways. One company told me they would only take cases where the company admitted the breach of privacy and would also charge on a no-win no-fee basis. They also told me that they would negotiate settlements with the insurers of the companies, such as Easy Jet... 

 

On 09/06/2020 at 14:05, BankFodder said:

Even if eventually you decide to go to solicitors, you will save money and also have much more powerful control over them if you let us help you examine the case with you in order to really understand your position. However, I don't see any need to go to solicitors at all. This is really not a matter of law – and even if it were I would consider that solicitors would be out of their depth.

 

Thanks again for your perspective, and I can now totally understand where you are coming from. 

 

 

On 09/06/2020 at 14:05, BankFodder said:

I defy you to find any firm of solicitors who has any experience or background in this kind of dispute.
The only people who do have experience in this kind of dispute will be Vodafone's own solicitors or the solicitors acting on behalf of other telecoms companies – and of course they won't be working for you.

 

I will explore a bit, because I really want to understand these things well, but again I understand what is the position you are coming from in this case too. 

 

On 09/06/2020 at 14:05, BankFodder said:

I'm still waiting to receive a confidential copy of the settlement letter – unless you decide not to send it.

 

For now I would prefer to have it undisclosed, I simply feel more comfortable this way.

 

On 09/06/2020 at 14:05, BankFodder said:

So I understand in fact that there is only one set of terms and conditions although you did earlier on say that there was an agreement referencing the "wrong terms and conditions" which led me to believe that there was another set of terms and conditions and that this was what was causing the dispute. A contractual ambiguity.

 

I signed two agreements and there was a sheet with terms and conditions at the back of both papers. Vodafone then referenced some other versions that included different clauses, however I do think that they might be updated versions of the same terms and conditions and out of their convenience they simply quoted those, which is what I find to be negligence. From what I remember we both signed two copies and they should bring out their copy of the agreements and quote the applicable terms and conditions on those agreements. 

 

On 09/06/2020 at 14:05, BankFodder said:

n fact I now understand from you that there was only one set of terms and conditions – presumably the one which you have posted up – and it is now a matter of interpretation.

 

I believe so, yes.

 

On 09/06/2020 at 14:05, BankFodder said:

Maybe you could find the actual cause within those terms and conditions and post those up. If you took a close-up – in focus – photograph of the particular clause you are referring to then we can start have a look at that.

 

Yes, I need to organise my things and thoughts a little bit further and plan to post that here in due course. Just writing here does help with organising my own thoughts and preparing the case 👍

 

On 09/06/2020 at 14:05, BankFodder said:

Have Vodafone never given you any basis for their differing interpretation?

 

No, but they did send the some interpretations now on the CISAS platform when they were defending their case. 

 

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 09/06/2020 at 15:12, BankFodder said:

You say you want to be pointed to the relevant law. But it's really very wide. You are referring to the law of contract on one hand and there also seems to be data protection issues on the other hand.

 

Ok, that is good to know. I have been studying Data Protection Act 2018 now, I want to know this very well for the future. As for the contract legislation, which act do you think could be the most relevant here? 

 

On 09/06/2020 at 15:12, BankFodder said:

The contractual issues here seem to be based on an interpretive disagreement – but we don't have enough information from you yet to know precisely what it is that is being interpreted because we haven't seen the relevant clause. Also we don't understand the basis of your interpretation of that clause and we do understand the basis of Vodafone's interpretation of that clause.

 

Ok, I see. I need some more time to organise all this well.

 

On 09/06/2020 at 15:12, BankFodder said:

Because these are interpretive differences, I'm afraid you won't find any discrete easily identifiable legal parcel that will give you the answer. Apart from anything else, English law doesn't work like that. English law is all about reasonable interpretations - and that is why we have a case law system – as opposed, for instance to civil law jurisdictions in Europe where law is completely written down and although interpretations have to be made, at the end of the day they can always fall back on the written word.

 

Alright 👍

 

As for my privacy claim among others, I have found some of the cases on this website somehow helpful: https://www.hutcheonlaw.co.uk/claims/data-protection/

Form what I understand I can make a breach of privacy claim arising just from the fact that it was breached, as this has been determined to cause distress on its own, judging by Vidal-Hall v Google case, https://www.fieldfisher.com/en/services/privacy-security-and-information/privacy-security-and-information-law-blog/vidal-hall-v-google-a-new-dawn-for-data-protection-claims 

 

As for how much I could claim, I have found this Cooper v Turrell case that makes me think that I could claim much more (up to £40,000.00?!) than I originally intended, although I still need to up my knowledge on that. https://inforrm.org/2012/01/06/case-law-cooper-v-turrell-the-assessment-of-damages-in-libel-and-privacy-hugh-tomlinson-qc/

 

On 09/06/2020 at 15:12, BankFodder said:

That doesn't happen in this jurisdiction – especially with areas of law like contract. Especially with contract law as it applies to businesses which is considerably less prescriptive than contract law as it applies to consumers.

We really do need to see the clause in question which seems to have caused so much problem and then we need to understand how this causes been interpreted by Vodafone and also by yourself.

 

Alright, I do need a little bit more time to organise all this though.

 

On 09/06/2020 at 15:12, BankFodder said:

The data protection issues are much clearer because data protection is a codified law and it is much simpler to point to inaccurate processing – which is a legal duty and it seems that Vodafone may have breached this. However, estimating the damages for breach of data protection law is rather more difficult – especially when you are dealing with damages for distress – which is one of the heads of damage which is available under data protection legislation.

 

Understood. I am about to explore this (especially all the six legal bases for processing date) a bit further and get back when I am ready. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 09/06/2020 at 15:14, BankFodder said:

Of course it's up to you if you want to send me the settlement letter. I don't know what you think I'm going to do with it – post it up on Facebook maybe?

 

I will be honest, I have very little experience with all this (never been to other court than the supreme one as a visitor 😊👍), and it is the first time that I am going through this adjudicator process, so I can I prefer to be more careful than less 😌

 

On 09/06/2020 at 15:14, BankFodder said:

I don't think it will do you any harm to see the letter in confidence – and at least we would get an angle on what has been said and what you have apparently agreed to.

We receive lots of secrets from people who come to this forum for help – but if you don't want to send the letter then that's fine. Only you didn't say so earlier on so I've been waiting for it.

 

I have received quite a lot of data now on CISAS platform, about 60 pages altogether, so it takes me quite some time to process all this too, plus trying to stay calm, given how distressful this case has been so far. 

 

On 09/06/2020 at 16:23, BankFodder said:

Your contract was in 2016 – and I can't seem to get hold of any terms and conditions of that date from the Vodafone website.

 

Finding all these things is a bit like going through labyrinths, given how many updates there were on their plans and how many plans they have.

 

On 09/06/2020 at 16:23, BankFodder said:

However, I have found this https://www.vodafone.co.uk/business/business-mobile-plans/unlimited-data-plans on their current website. Is there any chance that this reflects what you bought?

 

It must have been something similar, it was unlimited texts, minutes and calls I think and it was promoted as a business to me and at that time I only had a limited business, no sole trader businesses for which I could possibly contract with Vodafone. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you have received a lot of paperwork then you might want to have a look at the advice we give about how to deal with your court bundle or subject access request disclosure. You may give you an idea as to method.

You talk about "breach of privacy" – I've been interested to see where you think you have such an action available and whether such an action exists in English law.

Also, you are talking about £40,000 damages – not only is this an improbable figure – verging on the impossible, it also takes you into extremely dangerous waters because that puts you onto the "multitrack" where you will become liable for the other sides extraordinary costs if you lose – and my guess is that you would.
You would certainly have to justify a loss of £40,000 in considerable detail. This is not a figure that you can just pluck out of the air such a figure would have to be very carefully explained to the court.

I can't imagine a solicitor agreeing to go along with a claim for £40,000.

You refer to "no win no fee". Be careful – it's not all it's cracked up to be – and all it really would mean is that if you don't win then you don't have to pay a solicitor fee. If you do win then the solicitors fee will partly be taken from your winnings because the amount awarded in a court in his like to be less than your actual costs.
If you lose, then it is correct, you won't pay the costs of your own solicitor – but you will pay the other side's costs. No win no fee doesn't protect you against costs incurred by the winning party.
 

 

A final quick word about no win no fee: you have to decide what winning means. If the solicitor negotiates a deal – which you may find unsatisfactory but which the solicitor insists is reasonable and a good outcome – then you will be obliged to accept because if you don't, the solicitor may still come after you for the fee on the basis that it was the best deal available and the solicitor won't be deprived of fees simply because you didn't manage to satisfy your own expectations – even though they may have been higher.

You should understand that no win no fee motivates solicitors to bring a fairly speedy solution – almost on any terms – so they can pronounce it as "a win" and then pick up their fee.
You might get a no win no fee deal and come away extremely aggrieved at the idea that you have had to compromise far more than you wanted and not only that, a fair amount of your winnings have been taken out of the reduced/compromise settlement.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, BankFodder said:

Also, you are talking about £40,000 damages – not only is this an improbable figure – verging on the impossible, it also takes you into extremely dangerous waters because that puts you onto the "multitrack" where you will become liable for the other sides extraordinary costs if you lose – and my guess is that you would.
You would certainly have to justify a loss of £40,000 in considerable detail. This is not a figure that you can just pluck out of the air such a figure would have to be very carefully explained to the court.

I can't imagine a solicitor agreeing to go along with a claim for £40,000

 

Fair points. It definitely makes me consider to specify the costs better. 

 

16 hours ago, BankFodder said:

You talk about "breach of privacy" – I've been interested to see where you think you have such an action available and whether such an action exists in English law.

 

Hey, I am just doing my best battling all this corporate abuse; it feels like I need to high five myself when you say thinks like this 🙏😊

 

16 hours ago, BankFodder said:

If you have received a lot of paperwork then you might want to have a look at the advice we give about how to deal with your court bundle or subject access request disclosure. You may give you an idea as to method.

 

I received now everything they have on the platform on me/us through CISAS, but not also SAR that I requested directly from Vodafone. 

 

16 hours ago, BankFodder said:

You refer to "no win no fee". Be careful – it's not all it's cracked up to be – and all it really would mean is that if you don't win then you don't have to pay a solicitor fee. If you do win then the solicitors fee will partly be taken from your winnings because the amount awarded in a court in his like to be less than your actual costs.
If you lose, then it is correct, you won't pay the costs of your own solicitor – but you will pay the other side's costs. No win no fee doesn't protect you against costs incurred by the winning party.

 

I think I will just do it on my own this time, so I learn how to and prevent any similar complications in future in the get go. 

 

1 hour ago, BankFodder said:

A final quick word about no win no fee: you have to decide what winning means. If the solicitor negotiates a deal – which you may find unsatisfactory but which the solicitor insists is reasonable and a good outcome – then you will be obliged to accept because if you don't, the solicitor may still come after you for the fee on the basis that it was the best deal available and the solicitor won't be deprived of fees simply because you didn't manage to satisfy your own expectations – even though they may have been higher.

You should understand that no win no fee motivates solicitors to bring a fairly speedy solution – almost on any terms – so they can pronounce it as "a win" and then pick up their fee.
You might get a no win no fee deal and come away extremely aggrieved at the idea that you have had to compromise far more than you wanted and not only that, a fair amount of your winnings have been taken out of the reduced/compromise settlement.

 

Good points to consider honestly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If anybody is interested, this helped me understand negligence and damages 👍
 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 Caggers

    No registered users viewing this page.


  • Have we helped you ...?


×
×
  • Create New...