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HP Mum

Bank DCA strangers-harassing-relative

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There are alternative service options, where they cannot personally serve demands using a process server. Just takes longer, as they have to follow a process of attempting to make contact.

 

 


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What kind of alternative service options are there?

 

And what would qualify as attempting to make contact?  If they never asked me directly?

 

So far they created a song and dance at a relative's address and now trying to communicate with a lawyer they know isn't instructed.

 

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Read the link below. I think they will make a record of several ways they have attempted contact and in the end I think they can post up notices in London Gazette, plus local newspapers seeking for you to respond.  I believe this final last ditch attempt to make contact, enables them to try to go for bankruptcy in your absence.  But this is not my area of knowledge and I am going by what I have read previously that when personal service is not possible and alternative service is difficult, because a person is moving around, hiding, not responding etc, they have to document every attempt and in the end they can look to make someone bankrupt in their absence. 

 

https://www.insolvencydirect.bis.gov.uk/technicalmanual/Ch37-48/chapter45/part10/part_10.htm


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I sent a SAR to them.  They didn't comply. Emailed reminders asking for full disclosure.  They knew they could send all data to a mail address or email - as I had no permanent home.  They emailed a few docs but basically nothing, certainly nothing really relevant.  They didn't disclose anything to do with my property: no offers received, no up-to-date interest accrued, no expenses incurred.  They didn't/ don't want me to know what they've been up to.   What info they did send contained inaccuracies.  There was zero mention of anything to do with actions of trying to serve a sd or B petition. 

I made ico complaint but nothing will be done for 3months.

Re what you mention above - the company recently emailed suggesting a "chat".  Now their lawyer is contacting an incorrect lawyer.  Yet they've avoided sending me crucial info to a known mailing address or email.

 

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

Just re-reading emails/ checking details.

I do not trust these people. They're hiding actions by not sending any docs/ info in response to the SAR.

 

Lawyers been reminded they are only instructed by and for the Trust not any individual.   

However, the email they recently forwarded from these people had a subject heading with some kind of ref number.

Going over things I now see this number relates to old sd.

 

Just to briefly re-provide the thread history here: They'd used an incorrect address to try serve sd (knew I did not reside at that address).  There was no response to the sd obviously, as I was unaware of it in time. Gazette records show no ad in my name, ever.  However, they still presented a B petition to a random court as if the sd had been served. 

I only found this out by chance - ie when forwarded (random) court letter stating the B process was halted for several months (lockdown stoppage).  I assumed at the time it was because they hadn't proved service of the sd or b petition. 

The sd - without proof of service - also should have expired after 4 months.  I didn't think they could resurrect  an expired sd?     But the court letter advising 'halt' did not state the sd had expired or case thrown out...  So I am wondering if the old sd didn't expire - because they got it (via 'assumed substituted service' ??) to the b petition process first?

The letter wording was a) the case is removed from scheduled date and time on the court list forthwith b) the case will be re-listed on the 1st open date after x few months, a date to be advised c) the time estimate will be unchanged d) if the issue is resolved in the interim parties are requested to confirm the agreement reached, the judge may consider this information and if all agree, issue the consent order, a draft of which is required from any party legally represented e) any party objecting to this order must lodge an application to vary setting out the reasons why, what alternative is contended for and must send a copy to every party at the same time as to the court.

 

Can they resurrect the 1st sd as it is in the b process in the random court?  has it expired through non-service? do they need to try serve a new 2nd sd?  is this why they ask if the trust lawyer is repping me?  So they could serve old or new sd?  Can they enforce a b process - behind my back - in the current closed environment?   I am concerned that I am suddenly going to be presented with a 'you have been made b'.

 

The papers I eventually had sight of revealed they claimed the £s owed were not secured.  They were/ are.  Against property.   Which is unsold.  They marketed it at a very low price in hope of a quick sale but the market has been stagnant.  Interest continued to accrue.  So now it appears there is a shortfall.  Their claim reveals they want to make me b and retain the property on the basis the loan is unpaid.  Then, I guess, they  don't legally have to  answer to me what they are doing with the property?  They keep it on books until market improves and they then sell it at a price which would have prevented making me b...

 

I don't have a lawyer.

Should I re-send in a request (sar) for all info.  To protect my position?  ie I am asking for them to keep me informed - and they don't...

I feel very vulnerable and intimidated

Edited by HP Mum

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Think you had better stay on top of this and contact the Court regularly to check to see whether anything has happened.

 

 

 

 


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Posted (edited)

Thanks Uncle B

If I havent been served or officially seen sd or b petition wouldn't calling the random court be deemed an admission?

Or could I use this as an opportunity to get the case thrown out for not being officially served?  No proof of service and the 4 months allowed for a sd has long expired?

It just seems from the wording of the court letter (above) that the substituted service of the sd was allowed and there is a b petition in the system that has been adjourned due to lockdown, rather than thrown out?  And that in a few months time it will be resurrected?

I can definitely prove that I was in communication with them and they knew how to contact me - i wasn't being evasive; they never asked me where I was. It seems they wanted to sneak this through behind the scenes - get a b without any contention.

 

I have tried reading case law on this.  That i should question the lack of proof of sd service and lack of physical service of b petition before the court hearing is heard??

https://www.civillitigationbrief.com/2019/03/11/bankruptcy-petition-not-served-properly-bankruptcy-not-annulled/

This seems to show that the claimant must prove the b petition has physically been served - which they didn't and cant. 

This also seems to imply that a b order may not be annulled unless the issues on correct service are sorted early enough in the court process...??

 

It would be good to get the b petition thrown out the system.

 

Edited by HP Mum

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If they make you bankrupt, trying to annul this later  due to service issues is going to be difficult.

 

If you found out they had started the bankruptcy process, the court had accepted substituted service, then it is only the Courts system not fully functioning that is preventing this process moving forward.  

 

If you contact the Courts and find out the current situation, I think this will help you. How are you going to deal with this otherwise ?

 

 

 

 


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Posted (edited)

Thanks uncleB.

Now I am fully looking at this and reading case law - I can see that the court must have accepted substituted service of the sd.  Wrongly.   It's the only explanation as to there being a b petition in the court system with a set hearing date - which fortunately got postponed due to lockdown.  Perhaps there's also an element of - now they need to physically serve the b petition - off the back of the incorrect sd?  That's why they asked if trust lawyers are personally instructed too. 

All of this subterfuge!

Their actions make sense now.  They went quiet on me for months - no emails/ calls.  Whilst simultaneously pretending to try find me at a random relative location.  They pretended they didn't know how to find me.  Whilst knowing my email and # and fully able to ask.  Meanwhile I threw spanner in the works by sending in a sar.  This fully told them how to contact me/ where to send mail and also put them to the task of revealing all data and what they'd been up to.  They did not comply with the sar - sent no details of accrued interest or value of offers on property.  There was no mention of trying to find me at relative's house. Although within the sar data they did send - they enclosed a valuation of relative's property!!  They didn't disclose they started a legal process against me.  I chased - again very specifically asking what type of info I wanted them to disclose - and they refused to send data.  This is sure proof of deliberately withholding information, not giving me a fair and just chance of defence.

 

So - given the court letter (as above) says the b petition is withdrawn from court list for another couple months minimum due to lockdown, it seems I have time to sort out.

As of today I now realise I should contest the service of the substituted sd.   

Any ideas on how best to tackle this?

 

Edited by HP Mum

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You might delay the outcome, but unless you can show you don’t owe them money, or can repay what you owe - are you merely delaying the inevitable?

 

What is your desired endpoint here?

 

 

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Posted (edited)

Thanks bazza

Well.... There are several elements - how much is the alleged debt?  Their fraudulent behaviour? Etc etc. I could well have a legal case against them?  (They are currently in news involving a huge value fraud case)

Plus there's an element of if the property is sold, leaving a shortfall, before any b hearing and I have no asset, no income, no likelihood of ever repaying, no other creditors chasing me, and the b is of no actual benefit to these people/company - it is simply a harsh punishment with a lifechanging/damaging stigma attached - then a judge may consider me too broke to be b!  Insolvency Act '86 s266 (3) ??  I've seen case law on this outcome - albeit rare. Lock v Aylesbury Vale Council ('18)

 

Edited by HP Mum

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Posted (edited)

I need to collate all my evidence against these horrid people. 

I have to now assume they were awarded substituted service of the sd - so I need to figure the correct legal way to get this sd thrown out.  This prevents the b petition/ b hearing. 

They'd have to start the whole process again.  If they do, I will be prepared to defend this time round.  Not just with paperwork in order, but mentally too. 

It's hard to articulate how debilitating the last year+ has been.  It has been awful.  I don't know how I have managed.  If I hadn't had the support of a couple friends providing temp roofs over heads (me/kids) then I don't know how I'd have got through it all.  The best way to describe it is like being mentally curled up in a ball for the last year+. Occasionally normal personality surfacing; occasionally moping; otherwise trying to slowly just make sense of the complete volte-face of our lives.  I kind of feel I've been in lockdown for a year!  I guess its what people call the 5 stages of grief...

Edited by HP Mum

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Posted (edited)

Lock v Aylesbury Vale Council ;

Unlikely to help you.

 

A) It places the higher standard on public bodies (such as councils), though can apply to private creditors.

B) It is for where there are no assets to realise via a Trustee in Bankruptcy. In your case there is an asset (they’ll no doubt argue) with the leasehold. This is where any efforts by you (see this & previous threads) about the freehold may work against you...

 

expect them to say a bankruptcy is indicated to allow examination of your assets. 

Edited by BazzaS

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Posted (edited)

Thanks bazza - I do not have any asset. The sole asset was/is the lease.  I'm saying if that gets sold then there will categorically be zero assets.

The fh is not mine/ never will be/ I can't ever benefit. Making me b will not give them a penny. Not even cover a single step of the OR to evaluate.  I have no savings, no income, can't afford a rental - until I am fit for work (and no lockdown) I have been surviving off other's kindness

Edited by HP Mum

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Did you mention that your family own the freehold ?

 

If so, is the bankruptcy a tactical move ?

 

 


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A trust set up by family many years ago has the fh within it, yes. But Im not a beneficiary.  Trying to make me b wouldn't affect the trust or fh. I'm just a trustee. It's not a charity nor a company - I wouldnt have to resign as trustee.

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Posted (edited)

I think uncleB you are correct - that I need to focus on the court and getting the sd set aside. 

The more I read, the more I see they got substituted service passed by a judge. No idea how they succeeded without any proof of service, my old property being in a completely different geographical location and zero id at the relative's property.  But it seems they did.  And now there is a b petition also in the court system.  Which I now understand makes it harder to get set aside.   But I must and will.  Thankfully due to lockdown I have time on my side.

Do I need to find out which judge passed the sd? And write to her/him?   Is there a specific form to fill in - for being in the period of post-substituted sd service and before b petition hearing??

 

Also re the trust - the property purchases were completely separate.  A different group originally owned the fh and issued a lease. I bought the lease. As a separate deal years apart the trust bought the fh.  The original owners kept it separate so that's why it was also put in a trust.   It's just sadly ironic that I lost the lease and the trust kept the fh

 

Edited by HP Mum

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https://www.gov.uk/statutory-demands/challenge-a-statutory-demand

 

You will have to read the above link and consider reasons for trying to set aside the SD.  

 

And as you may be late in applying for the set aside, you should ask the Court for process for making a late application. 

 

This could lead you to facing the Bank in Court, so you might want to seek further advice from someone qualified.


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Where I have sight of a letter which states the following:

"a) the case is removed from scheduled date and time on the court list forthwith   

b) the case will be re-listed on the 1st open date after x few months, a date to be advised"

Is there any way a hearing would be any earlier than suggested?  Lockdown closed courts but may they open early?   

Could the bank ask it to be brought forward even with lockdown still in place officially til end July?   

Would that depend on them physically serving a b petition?

 

Could the 1st open date be any time up to Christmas with such a potential back log of cases?

 

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UncleB - where you write "This could lead you to facing the Bank in Court..."  

1stly -  would that mean now?  by remote hearing?  Or when the courts open after the summer?

 

2ndly - Does the application for set aside automatically prevent the B hearing going ahead?

 

3rdly - Will sending in an application to have the B petition set aside mean that I have to disclose an address for service?   I can only give a mailing address

 

4thly - Could having an early (remote) set aside hearing potentially quicken up the process for the bank if I am obliged to give them a suitable place for service?  At the moment I assume the hearing was adjourned for lack of physical service.

 

I want/ need to get a set aside.  But don't want to shoot myself in the foot.

 

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What are your reasons for set aside ?

 

Why can you only provide a mailing address ?

 

The Courts will have a backlog of cases and they will be listed for whenever they re-open.

 

You said the Court has accepted substituted service. 

 

Have you contacted the Court to find out what could happen next ? 


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