Landlord no permission to let property

[VanessaK]

Hi,

 

Thank you for the replies and apologies if I don't reply fully to each one, or if anything is confusing but trying my best to respond.

 

On 08/05/2020 at 19:22, SolarStan said:

They appeared to believe that they were doing a public service by allowing the tenant to live at the property and were often indignant when maintenance issues arose. "Well it was alright before they moved in."

 

Hi Solarstan,

Totally agree, some landlords are greedy and think they are just entitled to free money. 

 

Hi Stu007,

The S21 just says they are seeking possession under section 21 of the Housing Act 1988 as amended. It was delivered to me in the post. Under name & address of landlord it includes the landlords and estate agents. It gives a date in August to vacate, which is 3 months in accordance with government guidelines due to Covid19.

It states I should contact the solicitor with any questions relating to the S21. I understand the S21 and my issues are related to other matters.

Yes my deposit is held with DPS and I understand this cannot be dealt with until after vacating the property. I also paid 6 months rent upfront and it is not just the security deposit I am seeking return of. I want to sue them.

 

4 hours ago, unclebulgaria67 said:

You will NOT be refunded any of the normal rent, just because the landlord did not have permission to let from their Mortgage company.

 

Hi Unclebulgaria,

I am not seeking a refund of rent purely on a technicality, but for the damages this has caused me and to enable me to have the required funds to move out. They have placed me at risk of being evicted without notice by bailiffs on behalf their mortgage company. Just the threat of that alone is bad enough.

 

It is very difficult & stressful to move at the best of times and extra difficult at the moment. Plus I am supposed to be shielding due to being high risk for Covid19. The mortgage lender CAN evict me with bailiffs at any time and I am not willing to stick around to find out if that happens in the meantime of the S21 notice that has been given. This is preventing me from working and having a profound effect on my health. I paid them over £5000 to move into this property, plus other expenses. They are preventing me from moving by failing to refund my money.

 

I feel as though I have been scammed for a lot of money, have had no peaceful enjoyment of the property and the damages caused to me far outweigh the £5000+ advance rent I paid them. 

 

Amongst other things, I have been harassed by aggressive debt collectors chasing the landlords unpaid electricity. I have felt terrorised and this has also created a debt for me as the landlords & agent have failed to rectify the problem with smart meter. Also no running hot water in the property, no use of the bathroom facilities or cooking facilities that I paid to use in good faith, heating and ventilation problems, security issues and various other things. This has affected and is affecting my health and I do not consider the property to be habitable. 

 

It is not acceptable to be expected to continue paying them rent and they also expect me to accommodate their viewings whilst they try to sell the property, all the while being under the continued risk that I COULD be evicted by bailiffs at any time. I want to sue them and need my money back at the very least in order to secure somewhere else to live. I do not consider it reasonable to have no hot water or adequate ventilation, let alone the other problems and damages this has caused me and have every right to be able to enjoy a property that I have paid a lot of money to live in. They need to refund my money asap so that I can move out and that wouldn't even come close to the amount of damages they have caused me.

 

At this moment in time I was just looking for some help drafting a formal complaint letter and demand for refund, as I feel the biggest priority for me at the moment is to move out. The problem is I cannot afford to do that without a refund of the advance monies I paid them. 

 

Thank you

 

 

[honeybee13]

Hi.

 

It seems to me that we probably discussed your wish for a refund already. As I recall, you didn't agree with the answers.

 

Maybe I missed something in the 80-odd posts so far, but how were you planning to pay the rent after the six months please? And as I understand it, you want the rent back so you can sue the landlord?

 

HB

[VanessaK]

Hi Honeybee,

 

In answer to your questions, I was planning to pay the rent after 6 months from my income, although my income has been significantly affected by the various problems with the tenancy, as detailed in previous posts, and also the Covid19 outbreak on top of that.... Sorry if there is something you don't understand about the situation, but have done all I can to explain. 

 

No, I do not want the rent back so that I can sue the landlord. I want the rent back so that I can move out. If they don't refund my money, then they will be sued. Why should I pay rent for an uninhabitable property and suffer the consequences and costs of their problems?

[BazzaS]

If you raised the matter of essential repairs IN WRITING before the S21 was served the S21 is challengable - it is a ground on which you can claim the S21 is invalid.

 

You seem to "want to have your cake and eat it, too".

You clam you "do not consider the property to be habitable", yet it is:

a) unclear if you have raised the matter of

i) essential repairs

ii) in writing,

iii) prior to the S21 notice.

 

If you had done so in late January / early February, and moved out, a court might find your claims of "not habitable" justified, and ajuidcate your rent should be returned.

This late on (almost in June) - almost certain that a court will find that you have been using it, and thus ; 'habitable', especially if you have only raised the matters in writing after the S21.

 

b) Damages for your perceived slights / losses? You'd have to evidence these, and unless you have a psychiatric injury (diagnosed by a suitable qualified medical practitioner such as a Psychiatric specialists holding MRCPsych) , that has developed purely as a result of these events ; never going to happen.

 

If the situation was so bad, you were under a duty to mitigate your loss. Had you moved out in late Jnuary / ear;y Feb, giving written reasons why, and with video evidence to support it : you could make a claim for 'not habitable'.

 

Claiming so now, 3-4 later : it'll look like someone who eats 3 full courses in a restuarant, clearing the plate each time, and then says the bill is tto high, as the food was awful from the first mouthful!. The only way I can see the LL stands a chance of paying what you claim is if it gos to court, and you face an uphill battle there.

Edited May 17, 2020 by BazzaS

[VanessaK]

Bazza,

 

This is not the case at all and if you do not understand then I cannot help you. I am a human being and not simply a cash machine for landlord to use as they wish without taking responsibility for themselves.

 

It costs a lot of money to move home and they have taken all of mine, on the agreement of a habitable, enjoyable home. As previously stated, I have been a landlady and would never dream of putting my tenants in this position.

 

Yes I have made previously raised these issues, although many not in writing. As previously stated, I have my calls recorded. Some of the issues, ie the hot water, I did previously only have running hot water on the bath and nowhere else in the property. The hot water on the bath is now no longer working either and I have not as yet approached the managing agent with this problem. 

 

I do not agree with you that somebody would need a professional psychiatric evaluation in order to prove any type of issue under these circumstances. 

 

I am sorry, but feel you lack insight and would probably feel very differently if you were in my shoes. As already stated, I do not have thousands of pounds sat around in order to move home at any given time and should NOT be put in this position. Landlords have legal responsibilities and in return of rent monies they have failed in every respect to meet their responsibilities and these problems should NOT be put onto my shoulders to deal with. 

 

If you don't understand the reality, then I cannot help you.

 

If nobody can assist me then I will have to continue without any assistance or moral support.

 

 

[unclebulgaria67]

Vanessa

 

Please confirm exactly what you have paid to the landlords agent, other than the rent for the period of letting.

 

You will only get the deposit back, if there are no other provable issues. 

 

There are rules about fees that lettings agents can change.   Is this an issue ?

 

Of course the situation has made it very difficult for you move on, when you have to leave the property.  There will be lots of people in exactly the same situation up and down the country.  People letting their properties without consent of the mortgage companies is very common.  Mortgage companies don't start proceedings to gain possession, as long as the mortgage is being repaid.  The landlord is of course expected to ensure the tenancy is brought to an end as quickly as possible,  which is what is happening.

 

Accept that in August you will have move out of the property and look at what you can do in the meantime.  If there are any maintenance issues with the property, make sure that you raise these with the Solicitors and letting agent.    Look into what help you can obtain, to ensure that you are in the best place you can be to move on.  For example, contact any benefit advisory services to find out what you are entitled to.   Contact your local County Authority to ask about Housing options. 

 

https://www.entitledto.co.uk/

 

https://www.turn2us.org.uk/

 

Start making the preparations to move on in August.  As you probably realise, it would be a mistake to plan based on a very slim chance of the landlord offering any payment  or you winning a Court claim,  for the issues you have raised.

[VanessaK]

Please confirm exactly what you have paid to the landlords agent, other than the rent for the period of letting. 

Just under £6000 including security deposit. Plus removals and other expenses.

 

You will only get the deposit back, if there are no other provable issues. 

The other issues are provable

 

There are rules about fees that lettings agents can change.   Is this an issue ?

No

 

Of course the situation has made it very difficult for you move on, when you have to leave the property.  There will be lots of people in exactly the same situation up and down the country.  People letting their properties without consent of the mortgage companies is very common.  Mortgage companies don't start proceedings to gain possession, as long as the mortgage is being repaid.  The landlord is of course expected to ensure the tenancy is brought to an end as quickly as possible,  which is what is happening.

 

The property does not need to be repossessed in order for me to be evicted. The mortgage can evict me with bailiffs (without notice) without any repossession action. This has also been stated in writing.

 

Accept that in August you will have move out of the property and look at what you can do in the meantime.  If there are any maintenance issues with the property, make sure that you raise these with the Solicitors and letting agent.    Look into what help you can obtain, to ensure that you are in the best place you can be to move on.  For example, contact any benefit advisory services to find out what you are entitled to.   Contact your local County Authority to ask about Housing options. 

 

I have looked into every avenue possible, including any benefits. No organisation or benefits can help me. I need my money back in order to secure another roof over my head. I would need to raise 6 months rent upfront, security deposit and also removal costs & other expenses... Refund of my money paid is the very least they could do towards this and as I said, does not even come close to damages caused to me.

 

https://www.entitledto.co.uk/

 

https://www.turn2us.org.uk/

 

Start making the preparations to move on in August.  As you probably realise, it would be a mistake to plan based on a very slim chance of the landlord offering any payment  or you winning a Court claim,  for the issues you have raised.

They need to refund my money so that I can secure another property. They have placed me at high risk of eviction & homelessness.... Need help with a formal complaint letter. 

 

[BazzaS]

1 hour ago, VanessaK said:

 

Bazza,

 

I do not agree with you that somebody would need a professional psychiatric evaluation in order to prove any type of issue under these circumstances. 

 

 

The courts don’t award damages for stress.

The courts can award damages for a proven psychiatric injury.

 

To demonstrate something is the latter not the former requires a formal diagnosis by a recognised professional, and that won’t happen without such an evaluation.

Edited May 17, 2020 by BazzaS

[unclebulgaria67]

Provide a breakdown of the amount you have paid.  Not interested in costs such as removals, as you would incur those costs anyway. 

 

Monthly rent amount ?

Security deposit ?

Any fees charged ?

 

What proof do you have to back up the reasons for requiring compensation by the landlord ?

 

On what legal basis are you going to argue in Court to be compensated ?

 

 

[VanessaK]

3 minutes ago, BazzaS said:

The courts don’t award damages for stress.

The courts can award damages for a proven psychiatric injury.

 

To demonstrate something is the latter not the former requires a formal diagnosis by a recognised professional, and that won’t happen without such an evaluation.

 

Hi Bazza,

 

Sorry but I find it extremely difficult to believe or accept this... If that is the case then the UK judicial system needs a massive overhaul and the law needs to be changed... 

 

In any event, I can prove other losses, expenses and damages, but even still, I do not believe that a UK court of law cannot award damages for distress, harassment and other similar issues..

[BazzaS]

1 hour ago, VanessaK said:

 

If you don't understand the reality, then I cannot help you.

 

If nobody can assist me then I will have to continue without any assistance or moral support.

 

 

I can only advise as to my understanding of the law of tort regarding e.g. damages for stress vs. Damages for psychiatric injury.

 

If I’m wrong, hopefully someone else will post saying WHY / where I have misunderstood, and then there is a discussion / reasoned argument, rather than just contradiction.
 

If you persist in believing you can claim for things you can’t, then yes, you may find “nobody can assist you”. The issue is that the law is how it is by statute and case law rather than “as you wish it”, rightly or wrongly.

 

Even if you are morally correct, there is no point in people telling you you will succeed in court if that isn’t the case.

[VanessaK]

7 minutes ago, unclebulgaria67 said:

Provide a breakdown of the amount you have paid.  Not interested in costs such as removals, as you would incur those costs anyway. 

 

Monthly rent amount ?

Security deposit ?

Any feeds charged ?

 

What proof do you have to back up the reasons for requiring compensation by the landlord ?

 

On what legal basis are you going to argue in Court to be compensated ?

 

 

 

Hi Unclebulgaria,

 

In answer to your questions - The monthly rent amount is £850 and the security deposit was additional one month rent of £850. There were no agents fees charged, although I obviously had to pay removals costs & various other moving expenses... I was assured this was a long-term let.....

 

The other proof I have of reasons requiring compensation including some recorded telephone conversations and emails, various expenses I have had to pay as a result of tenancy/property issues and loss of earnings/other damages.... My GP has written a letter stating how this stress has affected me....

 

I was hoping somebody could help guide me in regards to legal basis/legal argument/case law/ to help draft an effective formal complaint letter.

[BazzaS]

20 minutes ago, VanessaK said:

 

Hi Bazza,

 

Sorry but I find it extremely difficult to believe or accept this... If that is the case then the UK judicial system needs a massive overhaul and the law needs to be changed... 

 

In any event, I can prove other losses, expenses and damages, but even still, I do not believe that a UK court of law cannot award damages for distress, harassment and other similar issues..

They can award damages for harassment, but not stress / “the vicissitudes of life”, unless that stress causes proven psychiatric injury.

 

Why do I believe this?

This is from the Law Commission (the URL says 2015, but the original paper is from 1995)

http://www.lawcom.gov.uk/app/uploads/2015/04/LC249.pdf

Look at para 2.3, on page 9.

 

I’m not aware of a major shift towards being able to sue for the “vicissitudes of life”.

 

 

If you want to sue for harassment: who are you going to sue?

The LL?(won’t fly).

The debt collectors? : their actions will likely have been lawful, until you advised them they had become unlawful. Did you do so in writing to the company?

Edited May 17, 2020 by BazzaS

[VanessaK]

1 hour ago, BazzaS said:

I can only advise as to my understanding of the law of tort regarding e.g. damages for stress vs. Damages for psychiatric injury.

 

Hi BazzaS,

 

Apologies if this isn't what you wanted to hear, but I really don't have the time or energy to try and seek any kind of professional psychiatric evaluation, and in any event consider myself to be of fairly sound mind and quite normal.... If the judicial system requires this, then maybe they are the ones who might need psychiatric evaluation?... 

 

I don't think my situation requires any kind of "psychiatric evaluation" and believe there must be laws in place to protect me in this kind of situation...Surely?

 

55 minutes ago, BazzaS said:

They can award damages for harassment, but not stress

 

BazzaS,

 

Then maybe it should be "harassment" I am claiming for?.... I am looking for help from this site and don't have the time, or mental capacity to study the laws myself.... Hence seeking guidance on legal argument.... Please don't confuse me further as I do not have the mental capacity to research or learn this myself.... 

 

Just some clear guidance would help, rather than confuse me further

[BazzaS]

It was never my intent to confuse, and I thought my postings clear (and even, latterly, backed up by cites such as the law commission!)

 

Clearly I’m not offering you what you are looking for, so I’ll let others try, and not be lured back in to trying to help (but apparently not manage to help, despite no one saying that I’ve misapplied the law as it stands!).

 

Selectively quoting me doesn’t help either.

If you want to sue for harassment, I asked earlier : who are you planning on suing?

That may help others help you.

Edited May 17, 2020 by BazzaS

[VanessaK]

Hi BazzaS,

 

I am not sure who I should be suing... The landlord? Letting agent?.... Or what legal arguments are applicable.... That is why I have come on here for help... 

 

Bazza, I feel as though you are questioning me in a manner that isn't helpful for me.... 

 

It takes a great deal of courage for anyone to post a problem on this site and isn't easy... I have explained the best I can and without repeating myself, hope somebody can help...

 

 

[unclebulgaria67]

Why not look to challenge the S.21 and become such a pain in the backside to the landlord, they they consider it necessary to offer you an incentive ?

 

Rather than look for compensation through some legal argument which does not appear to exist to enable you to take this to Court and time is most likely against you anyway, why not look at alternative options ?  ( time is against you, as it is unlikely you be able to issue any Court claim and for any Court case to be heard before the August date you have to leave the property.

 

 

[VanessaK]

Hi Unclebulgaria,

 

Yes. Great. That's what I want to do, to raise hell.... Can you help with a letter?

[fletch70]

I will probably get shot down here but here goes

 

You received the S21, I am assuming the end date is is sometime mod July . After that the landlord would need to seek possession and that can take weeks especially at the moment. During that time you 'should' be paying rent 

 

Why not start looking now for somewhere to live from the date you need to move out, you will have had 6 months of not finding monthly rental payments so hopefully you will have some savings towards rent.

 

If when you move out you owe rent, well they can take action to recover it but you could counter claim. I am assuming you have receipts for the work you paid for? 

 

Do you have copies of emails and letters sent to the agents or landlord?

 

The courts often do not look kindly on covert recordings such as telephone calls so you may be out of luck there. 

 

Just one more point, just because a mortgage company say something does not mean it is true. Up until a few years ago , debt collectors used to say this and that would happen if you didn't pay- hell and damnation , now they say may. Even then they need a court to agree with them and that often doesn't happen.

[VanessaK]

Hi Fletch70,

 

There is so much I could say in response to your reply, but am sorry I literally don't have the time or energy anymore....

 

Plus my posts are being reviewed and monitored and have to wait considerable time for them to be approved and displayed, which doesn't help....

 

I literally give up and although some replies have been most helpful and supportive, I can't help but feel this site is more of a hinderance to me than any help.... I will go to a solicitor for help instead... Thanks

[unclebulgaria67]

http://england.shelter.org.uk/housing_advice/eviction/section_21_eviction/challenging_a_section_21_notice_in_court

 

High Street Solicitors are mostly closed at the moment for face to face and you may find it difficult to gain any help from them by phone.  

 

You are really best to phone Shelter to discuss all of the issues and to follow their advice.

 

 

[VanessaK]

Unclebulgaria,

 

I have an appointment with solicitor tomorrow - Will pass this matter over to them to deal with.

[45002]

At last a step in the Right direction, make sure you take All your paperwork including the s21 notice.

 

Good Luck ....

[fletch70]

20 hours ago, VanessaK said:

Hi Fletch70,

 

There is so much I could say in response to your reply, but am sorry I literally don't have the time or energy anymore....

 

Plus my posts are being reviewed and monitored and have to wait considerable time for them to be approved and displayed, which doesn't help....

 

I literally give up and although some replies have been most helpful and supportive, I can't help but feel this site is more of a hinderance to me than any help.... I will go to a solicitor for help instead... Thanks

I hope your solicitor visit went well. 

 

I am sure you could say a lot to my reply; maybe if you reread what I said I was trying to offer a pragmatic solution. I also noticed your reply appeared within 5 minutes of my post. Clearly that wouldn't be the solution you wanted but it provided an avenue to escape and find alternative accommodation. The landlord would need a court order to get you evicted - if you need to get LA accommodation you have to be seen not to have made yourself intentionally homeless i.e. Not moving out until the bailiffs turn up- it is the crazy world we live in .

 

It could probably take 2 months or longer from the expiration of a S21 to get you to leave and that is assuming the S21 was served correctly

 

As an aside, you accused someone of being sexist in their reply , you do not know what their identity and we don't know yours. This is the internet and you may be surprised the number of men who use female pronouns and vice versa, its a way of remaining anonymous. I have known two people called Fletch in my life, one a young boy, the other a woman so...

 

Good luck anyway 

[hightail]

On 17/05/2020 at 16:57, VanessaK said:

Please confirm exactly what you have paid to the landlords agent, other than the rent for the period of letting. 

Just under £6000 including security deposit. Plus removals and other expenses.

 You were asked what you'd paid out other than for rent.  What did you pay an extra £6000 for on top of your rent and deposit?