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Bought used Vauxhall Corsa (from Forton Motors) - fault develops - trader does not respond

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Hello,

 

On January 25th 2020, I have purchased a 2011 Vauxhall Corsa D Excite from Forton Motors used car trader for £2700.

 

This is my first car, which I've saved up for over 3 years to buy and have no experience dealing with dealerships or experience in spotting anything faulty in the car (not that there was anything to spot on it)

 

According to the purchase contract, the trader has performed a full engine service, MOT and provided me with 6 months road tax and fixed a driver's door hinge which I've noticed is clicking a bit.

 

They have completed everything as per contract and I was happy to drive away with the vehicle.

Or I think they did...

The service book seems to have a stamp but I'm not sure how well the car was checked.

 

Within the contract, they have provided me with a 6 months 3rd party warranty from A1 Approved Ltd.

(As if the regular consumer right to repair was not already there..., making it out to be a big deal - think they spotted a new buyer).

 

After 31 days since the purchase (26th of Feb - the car has done around 750 - 800 miles at that point),

an engine light on the car came on and the engine started making odd noises.

 

I called the trader and informed them about it,

asking them to have a look at it

(At that point I was unaware of my right to refuse or right to repair , I was a bit blind with things, believing in what they say). 

They told me to get the car checked and call the warranty company.

 

I have taken the car to a local garage for inspection.

The mechanic has checked the OBD2 fault codes which came up with P0017 - Miscorrelation of the cam/crank chain.

(Likely faults: broken sensors or stretched camchain £100 / £800 costs accordingly).

 

The mechanic has kindly offered to not charge me for this as he noted that I should request a repair from the trader.

This opened my eyes a bit and after reading some more and contacting Citizen's Advice Bureau, I've decided to demand my rights under the Consumer Rights Act 2015 for a right to repair under the vehicle not being fit for purpose.

 

I have called them a few times explaining my position.

The trader stated that "IT MUST BE THE SENSORS" and not the chain and that even though the warranty they provided me with doesn't cover the sensors, they will "speak to the warranty service" and see what they can do about it.

Smelled really fishy to me...

 

Following the phonecalls and no consensus,

I have informed the trader in writing about the fault,

noting that I am exercising my right to repair under the above Act and gave them fair time to respond

(note the car has not moved from the driveway since the fault developed).

 

They have responded in writing,

advising me to provide them with a detailed report of the fault or directly contact the aforementioned warranty service

- saying its the faster way to resolve this.

They have also advised me not to drive the car.

 

After reading into the warranty contract,

I've found I can maximally claim up to £250 for parts and £0 for labour,

on top of not being able to claim anything in case it was the sensor (since its electronics and not mechanical).

 

I have responded to that saying that I do not wish to go the warranty route and would like to exercise my right to repair directly via the trader,

informing them that I do not wish to cover any inspection costs associated with diagnosing the fault further.

 

I have also explicitly asked them about Alternative Dispute Resolution service and whether they are part of it or would like to use one.

Since then I had no response to that letter.

 

After additional 7 days,

I have sent a letter before action for small court claims informing them that I will begin proceedings if I receive no response within 14 days, further reiterating everything.

No response to that letter either.

(I have sent all letters via recorded (tracked) Royal Mail post)

 

Don't think they can claim no-response due to covid as I can see their website being updated with new stock for showroom every now and then: http://www.fortonmotors.co.uk/

 

After waiting 14 days,

I have taken the vehicle to a local garage,

which has diagnosed the fault

(stretched camchain which has skipped a tooth).

 

The diagnosis, repair and parts costed me over £900 on top of numerous bus fares to work,

being unable to drive the car,

wasting my time and money.

 

The car is now operational and driving nicely after the repair.

 

On Google Reviews,

the trader has a few bad reviews claiming problems with the warranty and their aftersales behaviour,

with several people stating that they are "sleazy salesmen".

Wish I read these before I bought the car

(I was desperate for an independent mode of transport for personal reasons).

 

What I would like to kindly ask you if I should go through with the small claim case against them?

 

I have been informed by Citizen's Advice Bureau that the warranty they provided me with does not remove my rights as a consumer under the CRA 2015 yet I'm stil rather unsure on the law.

 

Due to being a student and living off student stipend with little help from parents,

I'd rather avoid court fees knowing I stand no chance against them.

 

What do you guys think?

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Actually their reviews don't come out too badly on Google, all things considered

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=forton+motors&oq=Forton+Motors&aqs=chrome.0.0l7j69i60.400j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#lrd=0x487b64f04dabfcb5:0xf6909a973b101fe7,1,,,

 

And there doesn't seem to be any reviews at all about them on trust pilot.

As second-hand car dealers go, they don't seem to be too bad.

However, you need to understand that you should disregard used car warranties almost completely. The only time they might be slightly useful is if they happen to be transferable if you sell the car on – but by and large they have no use at all other than to act as a fob off to innocent purchasers who go away thinking that that is the total extent of their rights and that once their three month or six months guarantee has run out, then they are on their own.

Especially with second-hand car purchases – but in fact with purchases of all items, your best protection is the Consumer Rights Act which provides you with ample protection and is very consumer-centric.

Even though you have bought a cheap old car, you are entitled that it should be of a satisfactory standard and remain that way for a reasonable period of time. To purchase a vehicle and then find that after a month or so it needs another £900 spent on it to get it going is clearly not a reasonable quality by the standards of any reasonable consumer. Therefore you immediately incur rights under the Consumer Rights Act and it is up to you to enforce them if the trader is not sufficiently consumer-facing to want to do their job properly – as seems to be the case here.

As you have already pointed out, you have gone past the 30 day limit for insisting on a refund but you are still within the six months so that you are entitled to insist upon a single repair and if that fails, then a refund.

You haven't handled it too badly – but you have made a few errors which won't be helpful to you – but won't be fatal.

Firstly, you should have obtained two quotes for the work or at least you should have informed Forton Motors that you are going to take the car in for repair to the provider of the cheapest quote as you hadn't heard from them.

Although it would have added a few days, the correct thing to do would have been to invite them to respond and to give them a short deadline after which you would proceed with the repair at your own expense and then seek to recover the money from them.
The important thing is to keep the other side informed at all times so that they are not eventually able to say to a court that they could have done the job more cheaply or that they were not given a proper opportunity to consider the quote or the report et cetera.
They advised you to obtain a report – and although you responded to them, as I have indicated it would have been a good idea to  have provided them with the report.

So you took the car for repair – so far as I am aware – without giving any warning about this to Forton Motors. As I have suggested, I don't think this is fatal but it won't be helpful to you because I can imagine that this is a factor that they will try to leverage against you.

Your big mistake is sending them a letter of claim threatening legal action – and without carrying out your threat. This is always a bad move. It's like saying that if you don't do X then I will huff and then I will puff… and then I will slink off and ponder what to do.

You should never consider sending off a letter of claim without having a plan in mind – and that plan must include that if the time limit given in the letter of claim expires, then you will act on your threat. At the end of 14 days you did nothing. Instead you were wondering what to do. BiG Fail.
You lose credibility and you bring comfort to the other side.

You should realise that these companies probably receive buckets of legal threats every month – and which are never carried out. It's meaningless.

 

Your other mistake is that this happened at the end of February and we are now the beginning of May so that you have allowed two months to lapse without taking assertive action.
When you have these kinds of problems with these companies you need to move very quickly. So quickly that it takes the company by surprise and it keeps them on the back foot. You need to demonstrate very clearly that you have control and that you are dictating events and the timescale of those events.


So we need to take a little action here to retrieve the situation – and we may need to roll back from the letter of claim for a moment – but get ready to send another one.

Have you informed Forton Motors about the repair? Have they seen any kind of report? Have you told them how much you have spent?

Maybe you would like to post up your letter of claim here in PDF format.
 


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Thank you very much for your reply.

I wasn't aware that the additional warranties are so useless, that's good to know for the future!

 

In terms of the quotes, I agree that should have been my course of action. The initial mechanic's advice mentioned that to determine the true cause of the problem would cost me £200, due to the need to take the engine apart and put it back together. I would have to pay 2x that to gather 2 quotes which at my current situaton would not have been the easiest pill to swallow. I guess I could have diagnosed it once, put it back together, take it to another place, take it apart again, diagnose and then leave it taken apart until I received a reply from the Trader in terms of the quote, although I'm not sure whether the time the vehicle would occupy the second mechanic's workshop would not incur further costs too.

I was going mostly off Citizen's Advice information at that point, which suggested my course of action, although probably with me misunderstanding some.

 

The reason I decided to repair the vehicle whilst diagnosing it within the same time, was that I didn't receive a reply from the trader to the letter before claim but also the fact I live with my parent who has some underlying conditions and do not own a vehicle themselves. Typically making shopping was rather easy as either they went for a quick stock up every few days or I made a bus trip to a supermarket, but due to COVID19, having an operational vehicle would have made this a lot easier and safer both both of us as I could have made shopping in bulk and much less frequently. Additionally, I was under the impression that the burden of diagnosing what really is the cause of the engine light coming on was on them, and I shouldn't have to incur additional costs just to make it easier to them. Bit of a priority call which I have made without really considering many things.

 

In terms the letter of claim, I have sent it around 30th of March and waited for 14 days to receive a reply. Then it took me a further 2 weeks to get hold of a mechanic and get the vehicle repaired, which brings us to roughly last 1.5 weeks. I have picked up on the matter again now as I've found a bit of time around my work, but something ticked me off as I was filling up the Money Claims online forms and decided to search a bit online again before I send things off, which led me to this forum.

 

I have not yet sent anything to Forton Motors as I was about to make the claim online and rather unsure whether I need to send them anything further.

 

Please find attached some of the letters I sent to them over the course of past few months.

 

Again, thank you so much for the reply!

 

 

Letter 1.pdf Letter 2.pdf Letter Before Claim.pdf

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Thanks for this.

It's a shame because you just missed the window for asserting your short-term right to reject – within 30 days you had the right to tell them that you want a refund. This doesn't mean that you would have had to go that route but at least you would have reserved your position.

You weren't very well advised by Citizens Advice – but I'm afraid that's not unusual for them. At that point you should have obtained an independent quotation – preferably two and you should have sent them to Forton's with an invitation to carry out their own inspection and also giving them seven days after which you would carry out your own set of repairs based on the cheapest quote.

I understand that it would have cost you money for the quotes – but this would have been recoverable from Forton's.

You then send a letter of claim dated 30 March giving them 14 days. You made a threat to begin a legal action and you didn't carry the threat through and we are now seven weeks away from that date. Bad mistake.

 

I suggest you do begin a legal action against Forton's. However do be aware that they may well challenge the £900 spent – partly on the basis that they were given no notice of this and that they could have done it cheaper. They may well say that in fact you spent over the odds. If you had given full notice of this then you wouldn't have this problem.
Come here first next time.

Your answer to them will be of course that you have tried to engage with them in an exchange and that they have not taken up the opportunity. I suppose like many companies, they will come back to you and say that because of the virus crisis they were unable to do with your correspondence. I think it would help to find out whether in fact they are there and doing business. Although you say they are updating the website, that really doesn't mean very much – although it's helpful.

If you are prepared to take legal action then this time you should send them a letter of claim which should include the mechanics report on what was wrong with the vehicle and also the cost of repairing it. I think it might be an idea to try and obtain another quotation for the same work – even though the work has already been carried out. I think you will need to demonstrate that you paid a reasonable price for this.

Getting the second quotation may well cost you money – and I'm afraid that that won't be recoverable from Forton's because you have closed the door on giving them an opportunity to challenge the quotations. Also, if the second independent quotation you get undercuts the amount of money that you have paid then I expect that you will only be able to recover the smaller amount. In other words if you get a quotation which basically identifies the problem but says that it would have cost only £600 to repair – then you will only be able to recover £600 because Forton's reasonable response will be that you paid over the odds and you shouldn't have paid £900.

Still, £600 better than nothing – and you never know you might get another quotation which says that you could have paid £1000 – in which case the £900 will seem very reasonable.

Of course I suppose that the £900 included exploring the cause of the problem and now that you have been able to identify the problem, the cost of repairs will be much cheaper. I think you will have to get someone to give you an independent estimate including the cost of exploring the problem as well as identifying it and repairing it. This is a little bit complicated – but if you want to stand the best chance of getting your money back then this is what you are going to have to do.

I think that getting this information is going to be pretty essential in order to make your life much easier. If you go simply directly to court with a bill for £900 without having attempted to compare it to anything else then I think you going to have difficulties – which you don't deserve – but unfortunately you have brought them upon yourself.

See if you can get a comparator quotation and then come back here.

 

How far is Forton's away from you?
 


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Posted (edited)

 

Thanks again for another reply.

 

Quote

It's a shame because you just missed the window for asserting your short-term right to reject – within 30 days you had the right to tell them that you want a refund. This doesn't mean that you would have had to go that route but at least you would have reserved your position.

Yes it is a shame. The car has developed a fault on the 31st day since the purchase which disqualifies me.

 

Quote

You then send a letter of claim dated 30 March giving them 14 days. You made a threat to begin a legal action and you didn't carry the threat through and we are now seven weeks away from that date. Bad mistake.

What would be my possible reply to a similar statement made in court by the trader?

 

Quote

Your answer to them will be of course that you have tried to engage with them in an exchange and that they have not taken up the opportunity. I suppose like many companies, they will come back to you and say that because of the virus crisis they were unable to do with your correspondence. I think it would help to find out whether in fact they are there and doing business. Although you say they are updating the website, that really doesn't mean very much – although it's helpful.

I have looked through their website and yes, new vehicles appear on there. Not sure how I should check whether they operate or not otherwise. I've found a few reviews online claiming they've bought a vehicle from the trader a month ago or so. Probably not a viable thing I can present in court but its an indication.

 

Quote

Getting the second quotation may well cost you money – and I'm afraid that that won't be recoverable from Forton's because you have closed the door on giving them an opportunity to challenge the quotations. Also, if the second independent quotation you get undercuts the amount of money that you have paid then I expect that you will only be able to recover the smaller amount. In other words if you get a quotation which basically identifies the problem but says that it would have cost only £600 to repair – then you will only be able to recover £600 because Forton's reasonable response will be that you paid over the odds and you shouldn't have paid £900.

Still, £600 better than nothing – and you never know you might get another quotation which says that you could have paid £1000 – in which case the £900 will seem very reasonable.

I live nearby an another mechanic's garage and taking your advice, I've just walked up to them to have a brief chat. I've been told to come back tomorrow with the receipt from the repair (so they know exactly what has been done to the car) but from initial description that I told them, they assume between £1000 and £1400 for a similar repair in their garage. I'm not yet certain as to whether that quote includes fault investigation or not, but I will clarify that tomorrow.

 

Quote

Of course I suppose that the £900 included exploring the cause of the problem and now that you have been able to identify the problem, the cost of repairs will be much cheaper. I think you will have to get someone to give you an independent estimate including the cost of exploring the problem as well as identifying it and repairing it. This is a little bit complicated – but if you want to stand the best chance of getting your money back then this is what you are going to have to do.

Seems like I will be able to get something of similar sort from the aforementioned mechanic.

 

Quote

If you are prepared to take legal action then this time you should send them a letter of claim which should include the mechanics report on what was wrong with the vehicle and also the cost of repairing it. I think it might be an idea to try and obtain another quotation for the same work – even though the work has already been carried out. I think you will need to demonstrate that you paid a reasonable price for this.

Yes, I intend to pursue legal action against them. I want to prepare as best I can for this so I'm very grateful for your advice on this.

 

Another question I have regarding the 2nd letter of claim: Should this explain my reasoning as to why I decided to repair the car without informing them (performing initial investigations and quotes at my own cost) or should this be a letter of a similar format to the one I sent on 30th of March with the included quote and repair receipt?

 

(Edit):

I live around 15 miles from the trader

 

Edited by dabbied
Answered question about "how far I live from the trader"

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Dear X X X

As you know, I purchased vehicle registration number X X X from you on X X X date.

On X X X date the car developed a fault and I started to engage in correspondence with you about it. I informed you of the fault and at some point during our exchange, I referred you to my rights under the Consumer Rights Act and that the car was not of satisfactory quality and that under the Act, in the first six months I had a right to a repair and failing that a right to a refund.

You rejected that suggestion and told me that I should fall back on warranty. In fact you told me this would be a quicker solution. He told me that the problem was probably "sensors".
It transpires firstly that the warranty specifically excludes "sensors" which according to you was the cause of the problem and in any event, it would cover parts only – no labour.

I have no idea why you sold me a vehicle and as part of the contract sold me a "warranty" which in all respects provides me with rights far inferior to the statutory rights which I enjoy in any event.  I find myself asking whether you sell all of your customers the same package.
It has also become clear to me that if you had fulfilled your statutory duty, then the repair of the vehicle would have occurred much more quickly than any repair under a warranty.

I take the view that the inclusion by you of an inferior warranty and then your attempt attempt by you to persuade me that I had no rights other than those under the warranty and then your subsequent attempt to persuade me that proceeding on the warranty would provide a faster solution were in fact an attempt to lull me into believing that I had no solution other than that provided by the warranty. In effect, I now take the view that you are an experienced professional car dealer and who was merely attempting to avoid your statutory obligations. 

As you know I attempted to enter into correspondence with you, informing you of the fault, informing you of my statutory rights but other than telling me that the problem was connected with the sensors – which you knew were not covered by the warranty – and also apart from you telling me to try and enforce the warranty and not to drive the vehicle, you made no other suggestion and then ceased to respond to my emails.

In the end, as I had a vehicle which on your own advice could not be driven – and as you were no longer communicating with me, I decided to mitigate my own loss and I had the car inspected by a local and reputable mechanic who eventually discovered the problem and carried out a repair and a cost to me of £900.

You might want to say that you could have organised the repair at the cheaper price – but unfortunately as you stopped responding to my emails, it was not possible to enter into any discussion about this.

In order to demonstrate my good faith in this matter, I have now approached another local reputable mechanic and have asked him to provide me with a quotation for comparable work. On the basis of what he has told me, the £900 which I paid for the repair seems to be quite good value. I should point out that had the comparator quotation been cheaper than £900 then I would only be approaching you for repayment of that lower sum.

I'm supplying you with the report from the repair mechanic and their bill along with the report from the comparator mechanic and their estimate for the work had it been given to them.

As you can imagine, this is a substantial amount of cash for me and I am not prepared to accept the loss.
You had a clear statutory duty. I tried to enter into a recent exchange with you and you attempted to deflect liability onto a meaningless warranty and then you terminated all communication.

If you do not let me have payment of the £900 in full within 14 days then I shall begin a small claim in the County Court to recover the sum plus interest plus court fees – and without any further notice.

Believe me

 


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Please check the above letter and make sure that it is correct. If it simply needs a minor adjustment then make the adjustment. If there is something seriously wrong then please make the changes and then post the draft here so that we can agree it.

Only send this letter if you are prepared to bring a legal action on day 15. If you aren't then don't send it and frankly you had better give up.

Bringing a small claim in the County Court is fairly easy – but you need to be aware of the various steps in order to be more confident about it. There's lots of information on this forum so start following up the links in order to find out how to bring a small claim in the County Court.

If you send the letter off then use the intervening 14 days to register on the County Court moneyclaim website and start preparing the claim. There is a limited number of words you can use for your particulars – but it doesn't need to be anything fancy. You can save your work as you go. Post a copy of the proposed particulars on this forum so we can have a look before you click it off.

You should get everything ready so that you are fully prepared within about the next seven or eight days. On day 15 click it off.

Don't get involved in any particular protracted exchange. You set your timescales. Stick by them. You are in control and you have to stay that way.

What are you studying as a student – and where are you?


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I'll correct some very minor details to make sure everything adds up and following the quote I'll get tomorrow, will send this off. I'll keep this thread updated with the progress.

Your responses were absolutely amazing and cleared a lot of the misunderstanding I had!

 

Quote

What are you studying as a student – and where are you?

I'm working towards a PhD in Computer Science in Lancashire.

 

Again, thank you so much!

 

 

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Well I'm sorry to say that I hope you are a bit more enquiring and methodical about your research than you are about buying a vehicle and ascertaining what your rights are before you start launching into threats of action.

Slapped wrists?
Yes, – slightly


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Slapped wrists?

Deserved :| 

  • Haha 1

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Read the Three Body Problem. Doesn't have much to do with what's going on here – but you might enjoy it.


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Reading the Wikipedia description I think I can see why you'd suggest to read this... :D 

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On 7th of May I've sent the second Letter Before Claim.

I'm in the process of typing up my particulars for the Money Claims online.

There is a limited space so I'm not certain how much detail to put and how to word things.

 

This is what I came up with:

Quote

"25/01/2020 - purchased a vehicle from Forton 
Motors. 26/02/2020 - vehicle developed a 
fault. 26/02/2020 – requested repair from 
Forton Motors, who advised me to contact 
A1Approved aftersales warranty. 28/02/2020 – 
I requested repair in writing. 11/03/2020 – 
Forton Motors advises to contact aftersales 
warranty again, and to obtain a repair quote. 
16/03/2020 – I reiterate my rights and ask 
about Alternative Dispute Resolution. 
30/03/2020 – I send letter a before claim. 
23/04/2020 – vehicle repaired at a cost to 
me of £905.88. 07/05/2020 - I send a letter 
before claim and repair receipt. I am 
claiming for payment for repair costs."

 

This is as much as I can fit into the box without going over the limit.

Should I make a more detailed list of particulars and send them to Forton Motors after I file a claim on 25th?

If so, what should I put in the MCO box?

 

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The claim is for breach of contract under the Consumer Rights Act in that the claimant purchased a vehicle registration X X X on X X X date and on X X X date he had developed a serious fault. The claimant contacted the defendant and asserted his short-term right to reject under the 2015 act. The defendant declined to comply with their statutory duties and the claimant was obliged to mitigate his costs by putting the vehicle into immediate repair which cost £900. Furthermore, while the vehicle was off the road, the claimant incurred costs £X X X.

 

Check that out and see if it is correct and if it is missing anything serious and publish the final draft here. You don't need all the rest of the detail you have included


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Draft:

Quote

"The claim is for breach of contract under the Consumer Rights Act in that the claimant purchased a vehicle registration XXXX XXX on 25/01/2020 and on 26/02/2020 the vehicle has developed a serious fault. The claimant contacted the defendant and asserted the right to repair under the 2015 act. The defendant declined to comply with their statutory duties and claimant was obliged to mitigate his costs by putting the vehicle into immediate repair at a cost of £905.88."

 

I have changed the right to reject to right the repair as the 30 days has passed since purchase when the fault developed.

 

Also, not sure how to claim any other costs. I have maybe one receipt for a bus fare to work since the fault has developed as I didn't keep them (thought it won't get to the point of making a court case). Unsure whether I could still claim for travel without any proof (especially that I've been working from home since the lockdown)

 

 

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Just add –
 

Quote

The claimant has incurred travel costs over a period of X X X days/weeks value £X X X.  - Total £X X X repairs plus £X X X ancillary losses equals £X X X total


That will be fine I think.

It states the case and the rest of it can come out later. Part of the trick is to put down as little as possible and let the other side start making very informative defences so that you know what you dealing with.

 

 


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Great, thanks for that!

 

Also, if I want to claim interest:

The box on MCO that asks for "Date money became owed to you (dd/mm/yyyy):". Do I put the date when I paid for the repair / the date I sent the 2nd Letter Before Claim or maybe when the car developed a fault...?

 

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No, the date you paid the money. So after your total – put "plus interest" if you have the space and then put "plus interest per section 69, County Courts act 1984"


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All done! Thank you very much again!

I intend to click off the claim on 25th (given they don't respond to the letter by then).

Is there anything I should keep in mind once I do that?

I believe they have 14 days to respond with a defence but I'm uncertain on the order of things happening should they do so.

 

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You should know all the steps even before you issue the claim. it's quite simple but you should take the trouble to find out for yourself by reading around on this forum about bringing a small claims in the county court. It will give you confidence.


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Thanks very much, will read these links :)

 

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