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Hozza

NPower - transposed reading with overcharging

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Hey first post here but I will keep it short. 

 

I currently have an E9 meter (deserve another thread just of the set up, but not now!) with npower as my supplier.

During the lockdown, I decided to review the current bills and noticed that NPower had been overbilling me as follow:

 

My rate 2 should be the Night rate, but NPower had been charging the Day rate on it! 

This means that instead of paying 85% night usage (9p/kWh), I am being charged at 85% day use of 22p/kWh!

 

Fortunately I have picked it up and informed NPower's CS which told me they will get back to me in 28 days.

Is this really going to happen or do I have to actively chase them? 

 

I have also done the calculations:

if I could get all the bills amended for the whole 2 years since the contract start, it would amount to over £1000. 

The backbilling code applies to them, but not to customers if the reverse happens?

If so then I should get the corrected refund of the whole 2 years?

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it's atleast 28 days, formerly its 8 weeks (56 days.)

 

you should get back the over-billing and if you are lucky 8% std int because you have been deprived of poss investing the money.

 

 

  • Thanks 1

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

 

if everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's tomorrow

the biggest financial industry in the UK, DCA;s would collapse overnight.

 

 

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So what have they been charging you then on the other rate ?

 


Just say No to 0870 and 0845 Numbers,Use

http://www.saynoto0870.com/search.php

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As with all transpose reading cases, day reading on the night rate, so I am paying around double at the moment.

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I asked, what is the rate you been charge on the other rate thank you.


Just say No to 0870 and 0845 Numbers,Use

http://www.saynoto0870.com/search.php

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The reverse, day on 9p/kWh and night on 22p/kWh as they are labelled the opposite on the bill at the moment. Not good when I have three storage heater and a storage water tank!

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Could you please tell us when this all happened.

It will help us to have dates so that we understand the chronology. Npower have told you they will get back to you in 28 days – but I don't understand why you have to depend on their timescales when it is their error. People become victims of these companies and then for some reason rather they scrape around to do their bidding.

Also, you say that there is a story over the setup of the metre in the first place. Does that involve Npower? Let's hear the story as well. Posted in another thread. If it involves Npower then it may be an opportunity to join everything together


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The flat that I live in now was bought by my parents in the late 90's but was always rented out and we didn't start living in it until March 2018. 

 

The Economy 9 set-up was not to do with NPower.

It was in the design stage when the developer decided that the development would not have gas supply and everyone would use electric heating as it was fashion back then. Now I have 2 MPANs and other suppliers insisted on changing 2 standing charges on their tariff if I request a quote!

 

The legacy supplier would be EDF (London Electric) but one of the previous tenants switched to NPower in 2013, which their CS had said it was always billed Rate 1 to Heat and Rate 2 to Day since 2013 (?!)

 

For 2 year, my parents and myself always wonder why our bills are so high (for a few months the DD was £192/mth) and we couldn't see why as the reading were correct. 

 

In the last few weeks I reviewed what I was paying for utilities, which involved me reviewing all my current bills (I switched mobile provider and entered a new contract with my fibre provider and saved £13/mth).

 

Then I reviewed the electricity bills...

On the most recent bill which covered Jan to early April, we supposed to have used 216kWh on night rate and 1791kWh on day rate for 66 days.

 

That rang multiple alarms in my head as I have 3 storage heaters and 1 water storage cylinder which are original, so they can't be consuming such little amount of electricity (water heater alone is rated 3kw).

 

Also most of my lighting are LED, and washing machine and oven were replaced in 2018 so energy consumption would be a lot lower, so they can't be using 27 kWh a day.

 

20th April: I got in touch with NPower CS, which initial suggested they are not wrong as the reading are all correct.

I kept challenging her and she then realised something is wrong. 

 

  • She acknowledged that the meter was probably set-up incorrectly since 2013
  • She asked me to run a load test which I did on the next day to show rate 1 changes during the day and no change on rate 2. Also, at E7 time, rate 1 closes and rate 2 records both circuits
  • IMPORTANT ONE: on their system, my set-up is listed as E10 and both MPAN comes up as HEATWISE, whereas the meter is labelled as Economy 9 with Rate 1 as normal and rate 2 as heat. This means that no only the readings are transposed, the tariff is also probably incorrect and they don't even know the time of the heating periods 😱

I sent the photos across on the 22nd, but they said it would take up to 28 days to resolve the query. 

 

The thing that really grinds my gear is, how can they take so long to solve this type of issue when it is blindingly obvious, with an ample supply of photos and related commentary. 

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Are you able to calculate from your readings how much you should have been paying? If you transpose the readings back against the rates per unit, maybe you can do this.

Do you say that this has been going on for two years?

I hope you realise that under the back billing rules, they will only be able to recover 12 months of bills from you from the date that they finally issue a correct bill.

You had a telephone call with them in which they admitted that there was an error. Do you have any evidence of this? Have you been recording your calls?
As you are new here, I'm assuming that you don't recorded calls in which case I suggest that you read our customer services guide, implement the advice there and have a further phone call with them and get them to make the same admissions. You can refer to the previous conversation you had and asked them to consult your file and get them to agree once again that there were errors. And also the basis for the errors.

You should also send them an SAR. Do that this afternoon.


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Yep I have done my calculation, it's done in an excel file for every single bill, with the tariff rates and readings. (my day job is civil engineering so this was quite easy). Should I upload it here?

As I am an electric heating user, it would be NPower owning me around £1000 as the night rate has been grossly overcharged. 

 

The conversation was done in web chat so I have downloaded the transcripts, also saved as well. The person already admitted to it (within the transcript) and I believe there is a complaint set up already. 

(I submitted a bill reading through web chat this Monday and CS could see there is a billing complaint in place, also was told about 28 days to respond, again, webchat and saved transcript).

The only thing that I haven't got now is the ref number. 

 

It has been happening since the contract started in 2018. Will get a SAR done asap. 

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Thanks. I'm assuming that eventually Npower will see the light and will offer you a reimbursement. However, I also foresee that they won't offer you the benefit of the back billing code and they will try to apply a corrected bill for the entire period since 2018. This would be wrong. You are entitled to benefit from the back billing code.

You say that Npower probably owe you about £1000. Does this mean £1000 over the entire two year period? – In fact how many months we talking about here?

Assuming that they get this sorted out in a month, then they will owe you the entire first 12 months of the error and then they will owe you the extent of the overpayment for the last 12 months – up to the date of the issue of the correct bill.

How does this tally with your figures?

The other thing you should realise is that Npower can eventually be forced to respect the back billing code and simply charge you for the most recent 12 months – but they won't pay you any interest on the money that they have held. They may make you a derisory compensation payment. However, if you took this to court then you can immediately claim for all of the overpayment plus interest of 8%.

At the same time you could also included an action for breach of data protection rules, that they have breached their duty to process your data accurately – and in respect of this you have suffered distress – and this would be worth a little bit extra, say, £200.

Maybe you can let us know some of the figures here. How much do you think they actually owe you – including the entire first 12 months – and then the overpayment of the second 12 months – plus 8% interest simple. You will have to calculate it on a daily rate. It might be something like .022p per day or something. I'm not sufficiently numerate to be able to work it out.

 

By the way, the last thing that will happen is that Npower will attempt to offer you a credit rather than a refund. This means that they will be asking you for an interest-free loan – which of course they've had already. They will simply be asking for it to be extended.


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@BankFodder, I will let the Excel do the story telling. 

 

The £1000 calculation was obtained by simply swapping the tariff rates to the correct one (Day to Heat and Heat to Day) while keeping the same reading. What excel gives me is how much the bill should have been for each one and I subtract it from the billed amount. The £1000 is the total of the differences across the 2 years. They overcharged on EVERY SINGLE BILL so I got lost that part when you mentioned the 12 months thing: First bill over by £44, 2nd by £35, etc. The file will explain :) 

 

Bill no.1 - 6 was March 2018 - April 2019

Bill no. 7 - 10 are April 2019 - April 2020

 

21 minutes ago, BankFodder said:

Assuming that they get this sorted out in a month, then they will owe you the entire first 12 months of the error and then they will owe you the extent of the overpayment for the last 12 months – up to the date of the issue of the correct bill.

I am lost here!

 

It goes from 7 March 2018 till 2 April 2020. So just under 2 years. I will not be happy if they only refund the money from the corrected bill...

At the moment the account is zeroed but as soon as they amend the bill from the last 2 years, then there would be £1000 credit. 

NPower Calculation.xlsx

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Well I'm not going to look at your Excel sheet. It's all too complicated. I'm simply going to explain the principles.

Imagine that they eventually put their hands up and give you a corrected bill at the end of May 2020. They are only entitled to charge you for the previous 12 months. That means that they can charge you the correct amount from 1 June 2019.
Under the back billing rules, everything up to that time is forfeit because they didn't give you an accurate bill.

So on the basis of those figures, how much did you pay up until 30 first of May 2019?

Then from 1st of June to 31st of May 2020, what should the corrected bill be – and how much have you actually paid? The difference between them is the overpayment for the 12 months and so that means that you are entitled to the entire repayment of the time up until 31st of May 2019 plus any excess payments up until 31 May 2020.

Does that make sense? I'm not able to explain it any more clearly – but no doubt there are others who can.

If you are a civil engineer then you should be able to discern what I'm getting at – I hope.

Then on top of the figures you want to add 8% simple – calculated on a daily basis, I suppose.

Let us know what 8% comes to and then we can go from there.


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use the statint sheet

 

 

  • Thanks 1

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

 

if everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's tomorrow

the biggest financial industry in the UK, DCA;s would collapse overnight.

 

 

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Posted (edited)

See red

43 minutes ago, BankFodder said:

 That means that they can charge you the correct amount from 1 June 2019. (They still need to amend the bill before that right?) 

 

So on the basis of those figures, how much did you pay up until 30 first of May 2019? £1155.5 went from my account to NPower but the bills should be just short of £750, difference of £400

Then from 1st of June to 31st of May 2020, what should the corrected bill be (£717.50)– and how much have you actually paid (£1302.28)?  The difference between them is the overpayment for the 12 months (1302.28-717.50=584.78) and so that means that you are entitled to the entire repayment of the time up until 31st of May 2019 (How much is this?? the difference of £400?) plus any excess payments up until 31 May 2020 (Is this £584.78?)

Then on top of the figures you want to add 8% simple – calculated on a daily basis, I suppose.

Let us know what 8% comes to and then we can go from there.

 

That bill goes across April to July 2019 

 

My dad also mentioned one of the tenants was repeatly chased by NPower for the "debt" and received a deadlock letter (I have got a copy which is JUST over a year old)... I guess I will flag the whole thing back to our previous letting agent so the tenants can be informed and chase accordingly!

 

When I was submitting my readings this week, I request whether the DD can be frozen based on the case and she said no... 

Edited by Hozza

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Not sure what the 8% would be for now as I would need to split the DD and excess payments up month and month, but I would care the most about the core amount.  

What is the difference between entire repayment and excess payments? 

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On the basis of the back billing code, anything older than 12 months is fully forfeit.

Anything in relation to the 12 months up to the production of a corrected bill is payable and therefore the excess is anything which you have paid over that.

So if in the first year you have paid £500 – you are entitled to return of all of that. This is even if Npower try to bill you for it and say will actually you used £200 during that period. They have lost the lot.

In the second year, if you have paid £500 but the corrected bill is only £200 then the excess is £300. So in that event, you would be entitled to the return of the £500 – (100% reimbursement) plus £300 – which is the money which you have paid in excess of what you actually owed – based on the corrected bill.

That means that you will be entitled to £800 – plus 8% per annum simple.

I'm sorry, I can't explain it any more.


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There is a few numbers that I could crunch out quickly:

  • How much I paid to NPower per bill (both DD and extra card top-up) 
  • How much NPower charged me based on the incorrect tariff per bill
  • How much they should have charged me per bill
  • The difference between the incorrect and correct amount per bill 

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If your previous tenants were overpaying then they can should certainly get their money back. Because they were previous tenants more than 12 months ago, they will be entitled to the recovery of 100% of everything they paid plus 8% per annum. That means that if they were tenants five years ago then they will be entitled to 8% for each of the subsequent four years.

Tell them to come here rather than to go to Npower. This is where you will get serious help.

2 minutes ago, Hozza said:

There is a few numbers that I could crunch out quickly:

  • How much I paid to NPower per bill (both DD and extra card top-up) 
  • How much NPower charged me based on the incorrect tariff per bill
  • How much they should have charged me per bill
  • The difference between the incorrect and correct amount per bill 

 

Sorry I don't understand a single thing you're saying here. I don't think I can repeat any of my explanations any more


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1 minute ago, BankFodder said:

On the basis of the back billing code, anything older than 12 months is fully forfeit.

Anything in relation to the 12 months up to the production of a corrected bill is payable and therefore the excess is anything which you have paid over that.

So if in the first year you have paid £500 – you are entitled to return of all of that. This is even if Npower try to bill you for it and say will actually you used £200 during that period. They have lost the lot.

In the second year, if you have paid £500 but the corrected bill is only £200 then the excess is £300. So in that event, you would be entitled to the return of the £500 – (100% reimbursement) plus £300 – which is the money which you have paid in excess of what you actually owed – based on the corrected bill.

That means that you will be entitled to £800 – plus 8% per annum simple.

I'm sorry, I can't explain it any more.

 

Oh right that makes perfect sense now. 

On that basics, how do I enforce the back billing code on the scenario of the first year? I reckon they will try to do the whole 2 years using excess + interest so I lose out the full return. 

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You can either wait until they produce a figure and then challenge it and then threatened to sue them in short order – and then probably go ahead and issue the court papers.

Or else you can tell them now the 28 days is far too long and that if they don't sorted out within 14 days you are going to issue the court papers.

It will be helpful if you will calculate the interest which is owed. We need to see whether it is a figure which is likely to be more than the likely compensation they might give you without too much pressure.

For instance, they may be prepared to pay you £100 compensation. Is the interest on the figure that they will owe you great in that?

Also, there is the question of compensation for inaccurate processing of your personal data.

I should warn you that my interest is in suing them – because like most of these companies they need to slap and this is what this forum were set up to do – obviously we want to help you as an individual as well – but we are also interested in eventually getting these companies to understand that it is better to behave themselves and that their customers are capable of exerting muscle if necessary.

Therefore my preference is that if you can calculate an accurate figure, then I would simply send them a 14 day letter of claim and then issue the papers.

You might prefer to go more slowly and less conflict oriented. It's a matter for you. However, Npower are one of the most complained about utilities companies in the country. They have been given huge fines in the past by the energy regulator – and they need dominating by the customers. Not enough people do it


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I guess I will need to wait a bit longer, as if I take them to Small Claims now then I would have to proof it on my side which is too much effort, as they have not confirmed that they have set the tariff wrong.

 

I will get the Statint sheet done today! 

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Also need to split that bill that goes across the year point!

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It's nothing to do with a year point. It is the 12 months starting from the date that an accurate bill is submitted – and then going backwards. It has nothing to do with calendar years.


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Ok done some excelling. 

Based on the sheet, if I do get ALL my money back from March 2018 to May 2019, payments alone works up to £1,155.50 and interest is £131.68
 

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