Parcel2Go & DHL - Lost, potentially stolen item

[trew]

Hi there,

 

I've been searching on Google for the past 2-3 days to see where I stand on this problem I've got, thought I'd post here too for your insights.

 

I sold some dog toys to a buyer for £480, it was fully insured via Parcel2Go.

 

The tracking on Parcel2go and DHL both said it had been delivered and signed for, so I thought 'okay great' and went about my day.

 

But a day or two later the buy responded saying he hadn't received his parcel, so I started investigating. After going through DHL's tracking information through the phone, it told me the parcel had been left in a safe place marked 'safe place'. I thought this was the first red flag seeing as online it said it had been signed for.

 

Next, I spoke to a DHL rep who said they'd look into this for me. They were being too slow so I gathered the number (from saynoto0870) of the DHL depot in Rotherham and they said that because of corona virus that all deliveries would now involve the driver leaving the parcel on the doorstep, ringing/knocking the door, taking a step back and waiting for the person to open up and accept the parcel and then get a signature. They also said they now take photos of the delivery address!

 

He described to me what he saw in the photo. The driver arrived at the right house and dropped off the parcels at the front door.

 

And that's it. That's the safe place he decided to leave it in. Right in full view of anyone walking past. I was shocked. And so was the DHL rep. DHL have just left the parcel at the front door and obviously something has happened to the parcels, most likely someone's walked past, gone onto the property and just taken the parcels.

 

I told the DHL rep "I didn't authorise the parcel to be left in a safe place, it's a signature delivery which is standard with DHL. If the customer wasn't at home then a redelivery should have been attempted". The rep agreed and he said my next steps should be to take this up with parcel2go.

 

So anyway, I've managed to get to the claims stage with parcel2go and they're asking for proof of the value of the item, which is fine because I have an invoice from the buyer I bought the goods from and also the invoice I provided to my customer. The only unfortunate thing is that I had to sell the items at a loss because of corona, I needed to get rid of my inventory before things got worse. If I paid more for the items and then sold them off at a loss to my buyer, would parcel2go accept this?

 

Also, do I have a strong case here?

[BankFodder]

I'm afraid that I think you would only be entitled to recover the sold value of the goods. Damages in contract are intended to put you into the position you would have been if the breach of contract had never occurred. That means in this case that if you sell the goods for £480 then that is the amount of money that you would be entitled to recover. If you sold the goods at an undervalue then am afraid that that is a hit that you took – regardless of the actions of Parcel2Go or DHL and you would not be able to expect them to make up the difference and put you in a better position then you would have been at the goods been properly delivered.

Please let us know what happens. I'm afraid these claims with Parcel2Go and DHL often don't go very smoothly and the issue has to be forced. We are happy to help

 

By the way, if you have any more dealings with these companies – as I suppose you will, then you should first of all read our customer services guide and implement the advice there. It is particularly important that you get evidence that they have claimed that the goods were signed for – because later on when you ask the signature they will be unable to provide it. This will put you in an excellent position in the event that they decide to cause you problems. Read our customer services guide and don't do anything until you have done and you have implemented the advice

[trew]

 

Thanks for the quick reply.

 

To be honest I expected that they wouldn't cover me for the loss but that's fine since I only sold the goods for around £60 less.

 

In terms of making a successful claim for my £480, do you think I have a good case here?

I recorded the phone call when the automatic tracking service on their number says that it was left in a safe place, and I also have screenshots of their online tracking page saying it was signed for by 'con'.

 

No such person lives in the neighbourhood as confirmed by my customer. 

But I guess this is a moot point since they've admitted they just left the parcel on the doorstep. 

 

I'll be keeping this thread updated all the way,.

[BankFodder]

Yes of course you have a good case. However the experience has been that these companies are always trying to cause problems for their customers and see if they can get away with not paying.

you really want to see a copy of the signature and I suggest that you ask them to send this to you immediately.

Keep on recording calls and come here if you have any problems

 

[Manxman in exile]

5 hours ago, trew said:

 

... and I also have screenshots of their online tracking page saying it was signed for by 'con'. No such person lives in the neighbourhood as confirmed by my customer. 

 

Did this happen after the CV19 lockdown?  If it did, my understanding is that signatures are not currently being taken from the addressee, but are being "signed for" by the courier.  (Or at least that's my understanding and it does sort of make sense to me).

 

If it shows as signed for by "con" (are you sure it's "con"?), I would take that to mean that either it's been signed for by (or on behalf) of the "consignee", or that it's been signed for by the courier and "con" (or whatever it says - could it be "cor"?) is code for this happening because of CV19.  (Haven't explained that very well - do you follow me?)

 

I'm sure you can only claim for what you sold them for, not what you paid for them

[dx100uk]

yes even royal mail are doing that and have been for +2weeks now.

 

 

[trew]

Yes it did, it happened about two weeks ago now.

 

If you ring the DHL customer service line it does state that they are doing this. But, the crucial detail is that they say 'the driver will record your name and take a photo of the premises to confirm delivery'.

 

This means they still have to wait for the person to open the door and confirm the parcel's been taken and then take a photo. It doesn't mean the courier can just leave the parcel on the doorstep if the customer isn't at home. In this case they should attempt delivery at another date.

 

The whole point of contact-free delivery is to follow the 2m social distancing rule, i.e., to limit physical contact between you and the driver.

 

It's not there for the driver to leave the parcel on doorstep and walk away and count this as the parcel being delivered lol.

 

I appreciate the replies so far, I'm in the middle of getting the signature from DHL and putting documents together (such as purchase invoices to show proof of value) to send off to parcel2go.

[BankFodder]

If they say they going to take a photograph – then get a copy of the photograph as well. You want everything. Also get a recording of wherever it is they say that they will take a photograph. Get copies of everything

[trew]

Another update.

 

I've provided all the info to parcel2go and the claim has been processing.

 

They asked for a copy of the recipient's signature since the parcel is showing as 'signed for' but I explained to them, again, that the parcel was left in a safe place as confirmed by DHL so this signature is not needed since the recipient was not at home to receive and hence sign for it, which is why it was left in a safe place.

 

But again they've asked for a copy of the recipient's signature.

The recipient is hesitant to send over a copy of his passport that shows his signature, even if the important details are crossed out. I'm getting really annoyed here since they seem to be ignoring what I'm telling them.

 

Should I just proceed with the letter before action?

[Manxman in exile]

See what BankFodder advises tomorrow.

 

I'd be very reluctant to provide a copy of my signature (certainly not a copy of my passport or bank card or something!), but why do they want it?  I thought the signature that acknowledged delivery was "con"?  How does seeing someone's signature give any indication as to whether or not they would have signed "con" to a delivery note?  Or have I completely misunderstood what they are asking?  (Or have you?!)

 

Just to let you know, we have experienced deliveries in the last few days where there's been a knock on the door and when we've opened it there's been something left on the doorstep but the courier's already bu99ered off!  If we hadn't been in at the time (the courier wouldn't have known if we were or not) who knows if the package would still be there on our return.  (Don't know who the couriers were - my wife's already recycled the packaging etc).

 

EDIT:  Just realised you are the sender and they want the addressee's signature.  I would explain to them again    v e r y   s l o w l y   t h a t   I t   w a s   s I g n e d   f o r   "c o n"   a n d   n o t   a   p r o p e r   n a m e   so what use is a copy of the addressee's signature?

Edited May 8, 2020 by Manxman in exile

[BankFodder]

On April 11 I advise you to read our customer services guide and to implement the advice there. Presumably you have done that because on April 12 you told us what DHL customerservices say on the telephone and how they treat deliveries during the virus crisis. Because you implemented our customer services guide and recorded the call you have got that stored away as evidence haven't you? Bravo.

Even if you didn't manage do it straightaway, we now about a month away since she first came to us so you've managed to go back with your court record in place and record that message – so Bravo again.

I don't understand why anybody here is debating over whether or not to provide Parcel2Go with a signature.

It is Parcel2Go which is claim that there has been a signature and so it is for them to prove it. They are asking you to prove a negative. It's nonsense and I don't understand why anybody hasn't immediately found this repugnant and why anybody is even considering.

You are being led around by the nose by Parcel2Go. They have produced no evidence of a signature or of the photograph. Luckily you have recorded evidence that they do take photographs and so you should have challenge them by now to say "where is it?".

I think you should now decide whether or not you want to take legal action. As you can tell, we've had too much of this company and their prevarication and their excuses – and I think if you are not prepared to take assertive action that I don't think there's anything more we can do to help you.

Make a decision as to whether or not you want to issue a claim. Read the steps linked on this forum about taking a small claim in the County Court. It's very easy – but it's worth knowing the steps in advance.

If you decide that you want to do this then you should send the letter of claim giving them 14 days. On day 15 – issue the claim. We will help you all the way.

The usual approach by this company is to prevaricate, then you send a letter of claim – then they ignore you – then you issue the claim – and then eventually they put their hands up. You have apparently paid for the so-called "insurance" that they extort out of people – and which in my view is completely unnecessary and amounts to the selling of duplicate rights in the same way that this happens with extended warranties. The majority of people we help here with Parcel2Go and normally Hermes, don't buy any insurance – and as long as the value has been correctly declared – there is very little difficulty and I'm not aware that we have lost any case so far – other than one a few months ago which was very poorly argued by somebody who came here for help and by and large didn't follow our advice.

If you decide to go ahead then I think in your letter of claim you should make it clear that is they who have said that there was a signature – so where is it. It is DHL themselves who have said that they take a photograph and that the photograph is taken with the delivery item at the door with the customer in sight – and you have a recording of this by way of proof – so where is the photograph. If they can't provide these things within 14 days or the compensation in full, then you will start a legal action without any further notice.

Do you see any problem with this approach?

[trew]

Thanks for your post.

 

Yep, I have recorded the call where the DHL automatic service confirms that the parcel was left in a safe place.

But it's not like this is some secret information though,

 

if parcel2go simply rang DHL customer service and gave them the parcel's tracking number they would be told the same thing.

This is what makes it a little funny and infuriating,

all they have to do is ring DHL but they still insist on the recipient's signature.

 

I also have a copy of the photograph that the DHL driver took.

The photograph shows the parcel sitting on the recipient's doorstep,

 

I had a look at google maps and literally anyone walking past could have just picked it up and walked away with it which is what happened since the customer didn't receive it. If anything, the photograph also proves that the parcel was left in a safe place since the customer is not in the photograph too.

 

I'm more than happy to go to court over this, I've provided them with everything they need to make the payout and they're still wasting my time.

 

Would you suggest I go straight to the letter of action? Or should I try one more time with them?

 

EDIT: I think I'll speak to a supervisor/manager on live chat tomorrow and tell them once again why a signature is not required.

If they still insist on it then I'm going to go down the letter of action route.

 

While I'm happy to play this out in court I'd still prefer trying one more time since there's a small possibility I can get it sorted faster this way.

[BankFodder]

I don't think there's any point in reasoning with them. I'm afraid that we know their style of old – and it will just draw things out.

The only thing that troubles me slightly is that they do have a photograph – although as you have pointed out, it is simply a photograph of the item which has been left at the correct front door. I suppose that when confronted, Parcel2Go will simply say that he is your purchaser who has stolen the item.

Without the photograph, your chances of success were better than 95%. With the photograph – and if they push it to a hearing then I would say that your chances of success are reduced to 80% to 85%. Still very good odds – but you have to appreciate that there may be a doubt in the judge's mind and the judge may well feel a niggle that maybe your customer has nicked the items.

Of course I think that your position is that first of all Parcel2Go have claimed that there was a signature and they have been saying this right from the beginning – and clearly there is none. And also I understand from you that during the virus crisis DHL is required at least to ascertain that the recipient is at the address and has open the door and that the photograph should be of the parcel and the recipient together.

I think that if you make this point very strongly then it is likely that you will get a judgement in your favour.

I think that you will now have to decide for yourself what you want to do.

If you sue Parcel2Go then the case will probably heard in your local court because you will identify yourself as a private individual – a litigant in person – and so the case will be transferred to you even though you are the claimant. This means that Parcel2Go will be put to considerable time and effort to turn up at court if there is a hearing or to instruct local legal representative. This increases their risk factor.

Your risk factor will be the claim fee – and if they push you to a hearing, also the hearing fee. You will have to go to the courts website to see what the fees for a claim of this value currently are.

Whereas most times Parcel2Go would put their hands up after the issue the claim, I think that there is a likelihood that because there is a photograph, they may decide to bluff you further and to push you to a hearing fee. If they find that you are prepared to commit to paying out the hearing fee then they might start to realise that this is going to go all the way to court and it could be at that point that they will then make you an offer. You should make sure that any offer that you accept is for the full amount plus all of your claim fees.

 

With the current virus crisis, it is entirely possible that the case might be heard by video link – and that will reduce their risk factor in terms of travel et cetera and that might give them courage to go the whole hog.

If you end up in court then you will have to be confident that you can represent yourself effectively and succinctly without bashing on and on and on.

[BankFodder]

If you are going to send a letter of action then you must mean it. Don't bluff. That means that you give them 14 days and then on day 15 you issue the papers. If you are prepared to do this then don't send the letter.

Check up on this website about the steps needed to take a small claim in the County Court. It is easy – but it is worth knowing the steps in advance which will give you greater confidence. If you send the letter of claim then register onto the courts moneyclaim website and start preparing your claim. You can save your work as you go. Let us see the draft of the particulars of claim before you click it off. It doesn't need to be any convoluted complicated form of words. There's no need to start strutting around like some so-called legal professional. Keep it short and simple. But we will help you once you post your draft particulars here.

[FTMDave]

On 08/05/2020 at 22:19, Manxman in exile said:

Just to let you know, we have experienced deliveries in the last few days where there's been a knock on the door and when we've opened it there's been something left on the doorstep but the courier's already bu99ered off!  If we hadn't been in at the time (the courier wouldn't have known if we were or not) who knows if the package would still be there on our return. 

 

A couple of weeks ago the courier came round when I wasn't in.  So they left the package with someone wandering along the street!

 

As it happens I do know the person (she lives three doors down from me) and she did give me the package, so all worked out alright.  However, she could easily have stolen it.  

 

My own experiences with couriers have generally been negative, they always seem to be under time pressure, thus "near enough is good enough".

 

[trew]

 

First of all, apologies for the delay in responding. I went back to work in May completely forgot about this.

 

Secondly, they paid out.

 

As you can see in my post dated May 11th, I suggested whether it would be worth trying one more time with them. Well, I did. I mentioned in my claim that, once again, they should contact DHL who would confirm that the parcel was left on the doorstep in full view of anyone passing by. I finished it off by saying that I was happy to go to small claims court over this if I do not hear back from them.

 

About a week later I received an email stating the claim was successful and they asked for my bank details to transfer the money over to. 

 

I'm surprised they didn't drag their heels over this but perhaps me seeing the picture of the supposed delivery and them knowing that I was doing my own 'investigation' into DHL made them nip this in the bud sooner rather than later.

 

And a reminder to anyone else reading this: contactless delivery does not mean that couriers can leave the parcel on your doorstep and leave. It means the courier leaves your parcel on your doorstep, waits for you to open the door and confirm receipt of the parcel, (the courier takes a picture, this seems to depend on the courier) and then and only then is delivery of the item concluded.

[Manxman in exile]

Well done.  Again persistence pays off.

[FTMDave]

Well done on your victory