Packlink/eBay Problem

[kl1]

This started as a delivery problem, but as the story unfolds ... please read on.

 

I am a private seller selling some of our items on eBay, some used, and some new.

 

A few weeks ago I sold a collectable toy for close to £200.

The item was packed and ready to go when the buyer contacted me stating that he had seen it cheaper somewhere else and wanted to cancel the sale.

My policy is "you pay, I ship" and shipped the item fully insured with Packlink/Hermes.

The item was delivered and signed for.

 

A few days later, the buyer opened a return request on eBay stating that the item had arrived damaged without providing any details.

I contacted the buyer and requested a description of the damage and pictures.

I also contacted Packlink and after providing some details they provided me with a claim form.

 

To claim for damage you have to provide a detailed description of the damage and specific pictures of the damage item.

I contacted the buyer twice again, but all I received was a request to return the item and deal with the insurance claim later.

 

Unfortunately, this is not practical as the insurance small print states that the insurance is invalid if the item has been moved from its delivery location, if packaging is not kept for inspection, ...

 

I also sent a registered letter to the address I sent the item to asking for the same information without receiving a response.

 

Question 1:

If the buyer does not cooperate, it seems impossible to claim on the insurance.

Is this a complete waste of money?

 

I then noticed that the name on the PayPal payment did not match the name on the delivery address and did a bit more digging.

The buyer has a business account and the name of the business account owner was different from the other two names.

The business address is a public place in London.

 

I asked the buyer via eBay directly if he was the person I shipped the item to, but got no response.

I wrote a note to eBay on the return request stating my concerns.

 

I then received an email from eBay that the return request was overdue and they would give me four days to resolve the matter otherwise they would refund the buyer and the buyer would be allowed to keep the item.

 

Question 2:

Can eBay give something away (my item), which is not their property?

I could not find a reference in the user agreement to that.

 

Before I could do anything, I received another email from eBay (they were 15 min apart) stating that a case has been opened and temporarily put on hold for five days whilst they collect more information from the buyer to confirm the condition of the item.

 

Great I thought, someone is taking action.

The return request had been closed at this point and I could no longer request a return of the item.

 

After five days I received an email stating that the case has been closed in favour of the buyer and the buyer has been refunded.

I was not given the opportunity to request a return of the item.

 

Question 3:

The eBay user agreement states: "You authorise eBay ... to charge if ...  you fail to send your buyer a return postage label and instead an eBay-generated label is used." Should eBay not have done that instead?

 

I issued a return request with a carrier directly, but was informed that the collection failed.

 

Question 4:

I understand you have to keep an item that was sent to you in error until it is collected by the sender.

Do I have a case against the person I shipped the item to?

 

Question 5:

The buyer, the person who paid and the recipient of the item seem to be all different.

The business address looks questionable.

Is there much point pursuing the buyer?

 

Question 6:

Can I pursue eBay on the basis

a) they have given something away (my item), which was not theirs to give;

b) they closed the return request and deprived me of the opportunity to rectify the situation when they failed to obtain details from the buyer.

 

And finally,

eBay stated they would refund the buyer and charge may PayPal account.

This hasn't happened yet, I don't know how this works technically,

but there is a Pay Now button on the case page.

 

However, they could refund the original transaction, which would give me a credit of the eBay fees and a refund of the PayPal fees.

 

Question 7: Are eBay under no obligation to act reasonably and minimise my financial loss?

[slick132]

Hi KL1 and welcome to CAG.

 

You say the buyer contacted you saying, "...... he had seen it cheaper somewhere else and wanted to cancel the sale."

 

Do you have this in writing and, if so, in what format ?

 

It would be useful if you could tell us more about the item you sold.

 

 

[kl1]

Hi slick132,

 

Yes, it was an conversation on ebay.

 

As the item is very specific, it would make it too identifiable. However, if it helps you with the argument, think of a pair of designer trainers...nothing fragile, no batteries, nothing electrical...

 

I am curious to hear what effect my answers have on your view of the case.

 

Thank you in advance for your help.

[slick132]

Hi KL,

 

I'm hoping others who have more experience with eBay and their dispute resolution process will jump in to offer focused advice.

 

I asked about the item so folk may be better able to suggest some answers for you.

 

I hope other eBay experts jump in soon ........

[dx100uk]

On 08/04/2020 at 19:23, kl1 said:

This started as a delivery problem, but as the story unfolds ... please read on.

 

I am a private seller selling some of our items on eBay, some used, and some new.

 

A few weeks ago I sold a collectable toy for close to £200.

The item was packed and ready to go when the buyer contacted me stating that he had seen it cheaper somewhere else and wanted to cancel the sale.

My policy is "you pay, I ship" and shipped the item fully insured with Packlink/Hermes.

The item was delivered and signed for.

 

A few days later, the buyer opened a return request on eBay stating that the item had arrived damaged without providing any details.

I contacted the buyer and requested a description of the damage and pictures.

I also contacted Packlink and after providing some details they provided me with a claim form.

 

To claim for damage you have to provide a detailed description of the damage and specific pictures of the damage item.

I contacted the buyer twice again, but all I received was a request to return the item and deal with the insurance claim later.

 

Unfortunately, this is not practical as the insurance small print states that the insurance is invalid if the item has been moved from its delivery location, if packaging is not kept for inspection, ...

 

I also sent a registered letter to the address I sent the item to asking for the same information without receiving a response.

 

Question 1:

If the buyer does not cooperate, it seems impossible to claim on the insurance.

Is this a complete waste of money? - what insurance did you pay for? if you claim, what are you likely to get back?

 

I then noticed that the name on the PayPal payment did not match the name on the delivery address and did a bit more digging.

The buyer has a business account and the name of the business account owner was different from the other two names.

The business address is a public place in London.

 

I asked the buyer via eBay directly if he was the person I shipped the item to, but got no response.

I wrote a note to eBay on the return request stating my concerns.

 

I then received an email from eBay that the return request was overdue and they would give me four days to resolve the matter otherwise they would refund the buyer and the buyer would be allowed to keep the item. - sounds like you fell for a variation of one of the very common ebay sc@ms.

 

Question 2:

Can eBay give something away (my item), which is not their property?

I could not find a reference in the user agreement to that. - sadly there is stuff and all you can do about that. Ebay are not under UK jurisdiction legal wise.

 

Before I could do anything, I received another email from eBay (they were 15 min apart) stating that a case has been opened and temporarily put on hold for five days whilst they collect more information from the buyer to confirm the condition of the item.

 

Great I thought, someone is taking action.

The return request had been closed at this point and I could no longer request a return of the item.

 

After five days I received an email stating that the case has been closed in favour of the buyer and the buyer has been refunded.

I was not given the opportunity to request a return of the item.

 

Question 3:

The eBay user agreement states: "You authorise eBay ... to charge if ...  you fail to send your buyer a return postage label and instead an eBay-generated label is used." Should eBay not have done that instead? - the buyer selects that option. but a Sc@mmer won't ofcourse use it.

 

I issued a return request with a carrier directly, but was informed that the collection failed.

 

Question 4:

I understand you have to keep an item that was sent to you in error until it is collected by the sender.

Do I have a case against the person I shipped the item to?

 

Question 5:

The buyer, the person who paid and the recipient of the item seem to be all different.

The business address looks questionable.

Is there much point pursuing the buyer? - you could yes

 

Question 6:

Can I pursue eBay on the basis

a) they have given something away (my item), which was not theirs to give;

b) they closed the return request and deprived me of the opportunity to rectify the situation when they failed to obtain details from the buyer. - as above.

 

And finally,

eBay stated they would refund the buyer and charge may PayPal account.

This hasn't happened yet, I don't know how this works technically,

but there is a Pay Now button on the case page.

 

However, they could refund the original transaction, which would give me a credit of the eBay fees and a refund of the PayPal fees.

 

Question 7: Are eBay under no obligation to act reasonably and minimise my financial loss? - they couldn't careless.

 

dx

[kl1]

Thanks slick132.

 

Thanks dx100uk.

 

I paid for the PackLink full compensation, but it turned out it is impossible to claim if the buyer does not cooperate and provide the necessary evidence.

 

I take your other points, which pretty much confirm the conclusion I came to: treat it as a learning exercise and move on

[dx100uk]

Well dont settle pp balance then and lose money too

remove all funding sources and tell your bank not to honour any dd or cpa payments.

[BankFodder]

2 hours ago, kl1 said:

Thanks slick132.

 

Thanks dx100uk.

 

I paid for the PackLink full compensation, but it turned out it is impossible to claim if the buyer does not cooperate and provide the necessary evidence.

 

I take your other points, which pretty much confirm the conclusion I came to: treat it as a learning exercise and move on

 

This is very interesting – and it's news to me. Please can you tell us a bit more about this. It is contained in their terms and conditions?

[kl1]

Hi BankFodder,

 

When you raise a claim with PackLink, you get the following email (looks like a standard template, so nothing specific in identifiable in it). The links refer to aBay help. Continuation on a separate post.

 

Dear customer,

Good Day!

In order to begin an investigation for damage the carrier requires a a detailed description of goods including packaging, the proof of value and pictures of the goods (including packaging).

For this reason, please send the information shown below in a reply to this email:

DETAILED DESCRIPTION OF THE GOODS SENT INCLUDING PACKAGING Please describe the goods sent and the packaging used (Goods: the model, colour; Packaging used: shape, colour, external labels applied to the package, hand-written text, etc.)

VALUE OF THE GOODS (Attach the eBay transaction copy as proof of sold item value or the PayPal receipt, that demonstrates the value of the sold eBay item value.) It is very important that you submit the proof of value using this format, read this help article: Proof of value

PHOTO OF THE GOODS AND PACKAGING BOTH INSIDE AND OUT (attach photos of the goods and packaging at the time of delivery in the event of damage or tampering and / or available photos of the goods and packaging prepared before collection). It is very important that you submit the photos using this guide: Take pictures of the damaged item.



OBLIGATORY CONSERVATION OF THE PACKAGING
Attention! The packaging must always be kept for a possible expert examination until the acceptance and/or resolution of the case. The carrier or insurance company can require more photographs of the package or the goods on certain cases after the investigation has been opened.

The User must ensure that the Recipient keeps the Goods and its packaging, so that they are available for an expert assessment, unless Packlink provides written instructions to the contrary. The Goods must be available for inspection in the state in which they were delivered to the Delivery Site. If the items have been tampered with, repaired, or if the packaging has not been conserved, the claim will be rejected.


Regards, 

 

Having cleared that hurdle , the next email arrived very quickly.

That wasn't too bad I though.

 

Dear customer,

Good Day!

We apologise for the inconveniences caused by the carrier in regards of your shipment and that you had to contact us to find out more information about this delivery.

I have submitted an investigation with the carrier, please see below.

### customer reference removed ###

 

With this email we confirm to have opened a formal investigation for damage. With the data you provided to us, the carrier will open an investigation and confirm the outcome to us.

Take into account that this type investigation requires the coordination of different participants involved (driver, depot, warehouse, carrier's local offices), so it might be necessary to wait for a response from the different parties involved, before being able to provide you with an answer.

Opening the insurance always requires the OAC - Official Anomaly Communication - from the carrier to confirm the incident, without which the insurance cannot proceed.

 

The timing and manner of the investigation are to determined by the carrier, not by Packlink.

Please contact our customer service again to check the status of the claim if you have not received another notification after 30 working days from today ,##-##-2020

We remain at your service. We inform you that if the carrier updates the working status of your case in the next few days, we will see to contacting you by email under this same case number #######

Regards, 

[kl1]

The response arrived very quickly. That wasn't too bad I though. Continuation in the next message.

 

Dear customer,

Good Day!

We apologise for the inconveniences caused by the carrier in regards of your shipment and that you had to contact us to find out more information about this delivery.

I have submitted an investigation with the carrier, please see below.

 

Dear customer,

With this email we confirm to have opened a formal investigation for damage. With the data you provided to us, the carrier will open an investigation and confirm the outcome to us.

Take into account that this type investigation requires the coordination of different participants involved (driver, depot, warehouse, carrier's local offices), so it might be necessary to wait for a response from the different parties involved, before being able to provide you with an answer.

Opening the insurance always requires the OAC - Official Anomaly Communication - from the carrier to confirm the incident, without which the insurance cannot proceed.
 

The timing and manner of the investigation are to determined by the carrier, not by Packlink.

Please contact our customer service again to check the status of the claim if you have not received another notification after 30 working days from today ,##-03-2020

We remain at your service. We inform you that if the carrier updates the working status of your case in the next few days, we will see to contacting you by email under this same case number ########

Regards, 

[kl1]

And then the real hammer arrived a few days later:

 

Dear customer, 

Good Day!

We apologise for the inconveniences caused to both you and the buyer in regards of the damaged parcel. The parcels go through several handling and transportation processes, so on rare occasions, this may happen.

To manage your compensation claim, you must complete the Packlink Claim Form that is available in the eBay Delivery Help Centre. To access the claim, please click here:
 

#### link removed ####

After you have completed the Claim Form, our Claim Department will analyse the documents provided and give you an answer as soon as possible.
 

Please submit a claim form using the details below:

#### details removed ####

In Packlink we do everything we can to resolve all the claims with the insurance company and/or the carrier as quickly as possible. However, keep in mind we need to contact the carrier to verify liability for the incident, and to report the outcome and/or respective liquidation of the case. Once the claim form is submitted we aim to settle to your claim within 30 days.
 

HOW TO ACCESS THE CLAIM FORM The Claim Form is not public. It is only activated through the email used to register on the site. Access to the Form will automatically be revoked after it has been filled in.   Registered eBay Delivery user: If you are a registered eBay Delivery user, you can access the Claim Form at your Help Centre after having logged into the site with the email you used to register #### name removed #### directly on the homepage, by clicking on Access - Help - Insurance – Insurance Claim form.

 

PROOF OF VALUE   eBay Sale Record: Go to your paid and dispatched item, then sales record and attach a screenshot of the sale record, in which the sale price and buyer's name are visible. ·          PayPal Transaction Confirmation: If your item was paid through PayPal, attach a screenshot of the PayPal transaction, in which the sale price and the buyer's name are visible.

 

PHOTOGRAPHS FOR DAMAGE In case of damage, the Claim Form will instruct you to attach 3 photographs of the package and the goods with the following characteristics: 1.    Photograph of the damaged goods as a whole and not just a single close up. 2.    Photograph of the goods as it arrived packaged in its respective internal packaging that protected it during transport. 3.    Photograph of the entire package as it arrived on delivery so that the package can be seen in its entirety and with the carrier’s label visible   Since you have to attach documentation to the Claim Form, we recommend you prepare this type of documentation beforehand so that you can complete the online claim faster.

 

OBLIGATORY CONSERVATION OF THE PACKAGING In cases of damage and/or tampering, the packaging and the goods must always be kept in case of possible expert inspection until the acceptance and/or resolution of the case. On certain occasions, the carrier, claims office or the insurance company may request more photographs, , or an onsite examination, either of the package or of the goods, after the investigation has started.

 

TIMING FOR THE OPENING OF THE DAMAGE CLAIM It is possible to open a claim case for damage or tampering within the following deadlines: within and not beyond 7 calendar days counting from the day after the delivery of the parcel.   The claim form is then very explicit: In case of damage we need pictures that can prove that the packaging used was adequate to protect your parcel. To submit the form you need to provide evidence with a minimum of 3 pictures attached to this claim form. Failing to provide the pictures, exactly as described below, will make for us impossible to evaluate if your parcel was packed according to the Packlink Packaging Guidelines, and therefore your claim will be denied for insufficient packaging.   1. Photo of damaged goods in their entirety: the photo must show the damage in its entirety and not just a detail. If the damage is not noticeable in a general shot, it will be necessary to add one more image of the article where it is shown. In case you find more than one damaged item, take the picture grouping all the items in a single image.   2. Photo of the outer packaging, including the label of the transport company: the photo must show that the shipment was made with the transport company and that the claim corresponds to the contracted shipment. We request that the photo be taken at a distance where the shipping label is visible.   3. Photo of the goods with inner packaging: the photo should show that the packaging used has protected the contents during transport. We request an image of the damaged merchandise placed inside the packaging, just as it arrived at the original recipient.

[kl1]

Following on from the above, one could argue that there is a general issue with enhanced compensation for damage bought from PackLink through the eBay web site:

• Claims for enhanced compensation for damage must be made no later than seven days after delivery whilst eBay allow a much longer time for buyer to open a claim.
• PackLink requires up to thirty days to process a claim. During this time "the Recipient keeps the Goods and its packaging, so that they are available for an expert assessment, unless Packlink provides written instructions to the contrary. The Goods must be available for inspection in the state in which they were delivered to the Delivery Site. If the items have been tampered with, repaired, or if the packaging has not been conserved, the claim will be rejected." In contradiction to the PackLink requirement, eBay encourages sellers to respond to a return request quickly and steps in well before PackLink has made a decision.
• There does not seem to be any safeguards that eBay has put in place to prevent unresponsive buyers from abusing return requests claiming that an item was damaged.

As eBay's timing and handling of the return process will invalidated a claim against PackLink for a damaged item, one could consider eBay's handling of a claim for damage at best as negligent and at worst as a deliberate attempt to circumvent a claim for compensation for a damaged item.

Furthermore, one could argue that an eBay partner - through the eBay web site - is mis-selling enhanced compensation that is not fit for purpose.