NIP, sorry.........

[hovercraft]

Hi,

 

Firstly sorry, I have read as many other posts NIP related.

 

Got an NIP @59mph, I genuinely thought it was a 60mph limit (dual carriageway in the countryside) just after a roundabout on the A5 Halton/Wrexham and after being stuck behind lorries for a while, the road became a dual carriageway so I overtook and on the bridge was a camera van.

Thought I'm under 60mph fine, obviously not, it must of been a 50mph.

 

Just to say I've had a clean licence for many yrs, try to stick to speed limits etc and I do about 40k mls a yr as a courier.

 

Sorry for the long post, of course I'll send the NIP back with details, but, what are the chances of getting a speed awareness course?

 

Thanks for any help.

 

 

[honeybee13]

Hi.

 

I'm not one of the experts, I'm sure they'll be along later. Could you confirm please if the NiP says it's 59 in a 50 zone?

 

HB

[BankFodder]

Somebody else will be along with better advice – but the first thing I would do is I would go back and check the speed limit. You never know.

Quite a few years ago I was booked for speeding on the A1 coming out north London. In fact the police got the speed limit wrong and were very embarrassed when one of the magistrates said that she knew the particular spot that I was driving and that I was right.
I was very lucky.

Check the speed limit. They're probably right – but you never know. You don't seem to be sure at the moment.

[hovercraft]

Hi, thanks for the reply,

 

No, no mention of limit. Please see attached.

 

 

Hi, ok thanks, I'll do that, but my home is about 170mls away, I tend to use the A5 from Southampton up to Chester.

 

But thanks, I'll check next time.

[Man in the middle]

If it was a 50mph limit you should be offered a course. They are normally offered up to (Limit + 10% + 9mph), so up to 64mph. You can only do one course (of the same type) in three years, with the date of the offences being used to calculate that period.

[hovercraft]

Many thanks, hopefully, I pay £1500 a yr now with no points, claims etc.

[Tony P]

You do need to check out exactly where, and what limits were there last week.

 

OS maps and Google Street View for a mile or so in both directions along the A5 from the Halton roundabout show a single carriageway (part with 3 lanes) with derestricted signs. In one direction there are lamp posts but still with occasional derestricted signs.

That I believe, means 60mph. However, Street View was photographed in the autumn of 2018.

 

A thought - you say you are a courier. Was your vehicle subject to speed limits lower than for private cars?

For example, non car based vans over 2 tonnes laden weight have a 50mph limit on single carriageways - as does anything towing a trailer.

Edited March 21, 2020 by Tony P

[hovercraft]

Hi, thanks for the reply.  Yes, as you say 50 on single and 60 on dual carriageways, That's why I kept below 60 because my side became a dual after the roundabout, but you may be right. If you are, that's .......(no comment), that means I can't overtake lorries, I totally understand if it's on a dual or even a 3 lane road which is 50; for example along the A3 into London in built-up areas. But in the Countryside?!

 

Thanks again, I'll send a letter in with the NIP and see what is what.

[Tony P]

2 hours ago, hovercraft said:

 

 because my side became a dual after the roundabout,

 

You can't have a dual carriage way on one side!

 

On Street View there is no dual carriageway there, only a single carriageway with white lines separating traffic directions. Maybe things have changed since their photographs of 18 months ago.

 

Even with two lanes in a direction it was still a single carriageway as there was no physical separation of traffic directions

 

Others will clarify exactly what defines a dual carriageway in terms of barriers, kerbs, central reservations, signeage, etc but it's not white lines alone. 

[hovercraft]

 

Hi, ok thanks again, "You can't have a dual carriage way on one side!" didn't know this inspite of driving for some 40yrs. Every day a school day

[Man in the middle]

1 hour ago, hovercraft said:

You can't have a dual carriage way on one side!" didn't know this inspite of driving for some 40yrs. Every day a school day

 

A dual carriageway is a road which has a central reservation to separate the carriageways. If there is any dispute over whether a road is a dual carriageway or not (e.g. if you defend a speeding charge on the basis that the road you were on was a dual carriageway and the prosecution disagrees) it will be for a court to decide who is right. If you think about it you cannot have a "one sided" dual carriageway. If the road is divided by a central reservation it is a dual carriageway (in both directions) and if it isn't it's not. Could you be thinking of a situation where a single carriageway road has a "service road" along one side, divided from the main road by, say a pavement? 

 

 

[hovercraft]

Hi, thanks for the reply.

 

No, I was definitely on a 2 lane (my side) of the road (an overtaking section?), the otherside may have been a single lane.

As it was uphill and possibly down to one lane again somewhere after a section of road possibly.

[honeybee13]

I've never really given this much thought until this thread but have had a read around the internet now. I sort of assumed that a dual carriageway was two lanes either side of the central barrier, so misunderstanding what 'dual' applied to.

 

It didn't really occur to me that a dual carriageway could have one lane either side of the central barrier, only because I haven't seen one. I've learned as well.

 

HB

[Man in the middle]

2 hours ago, hovercraft said:

Hi, thanks for the reply. No, I was definately on a 2 lane (my side) of the road (an overtaking section?), the otherside may have been a single lane.

 

Yes but did it have a central reservation separating the two carriageways, or was it just white line? As honeybee has indicated, there may be some confusion as to what constitutes a dual carriageway. The number of lanes is irrelevant. It is the dividing reservation which must be present.

[hovercraft]

thanks for the reply, and knowledge.

I'll have a look next time up there, I nearly always use that route to Chester.

[hovercraft]

Hi Thanks again fro everyone's help.

I've been offered a course, however all courses have been cancelled for the foreseeable future, I have to check the site every now and then. Maybe even to do a possible online course.

 

I had to go to Exeter yesterday, and I noticed in parts the A303 had 2 lanes (crawler/overtaking lane?) side, but no central reservation and also derestricted, but I kept to 50mph, lesson learned.

 

Thanks again, stay safe.

[Man in the middle]

You need to keep an eye on this.

 

Obviously all courses have been cancelled UFN. However, under the normal process you would firstly be offered a course. If you failed to take it up you would be offered a fixed penalty. Finally if you failed to take up that offer you would face a court hearing and that decision is usually taken four months after the offence date

 

It's not at all clear what they intend to do in cases like yours (where a course was offered before they were all cancelled). No courses are being offered now and low-level speeding goes automatically straight to a fixed penalty. Whether they will withdraw course offers in cases like yours is not known. One would hope that common sense prevails and they simply revert to a fixed penalty. But the danger you face is that they do nothing and then you will face a court hearing by default (they have six months to begin proceedings). You are in a bit of a cleft stick because if they do nothing and the matter "times out" you're off the hook entirely. But if you "poke the hornet's nest" at about four months it may stir them into action. If the worst happens and you do face prosecution the court has the discretion to sentence you at the fixed penalty level.

[hovercraft]

Hi, thanks for the reply.

 

That's not good news. Their reply:

 

"Thank you for your email. 

We wish to apologise for the delay in responding to your email we have been inundated with queries. 

We are currently working on providing a digital course for you to undertake, this will need to be paid in full at the time of booking.  Please would you review the website next week periodically for an update."

 

A "fixed penalty" does that include points? It would be fine without the points, but if I get any points that'll be £££ on my insurances, I'd might as well stop what I'm doing.

Thanks again.

 

[Man in the middle]

A fixed penalty is £100 and three points.

A single speeding offence is not likely to make a significant difference to your insurance premium unless you are in a particularly high risk group.

 

However it looks like they have matters in hand.

If you do take the course one thing to bear in mind is that you can only do one of any type within three years (with the date of the offences being used to calculate that period).

[hovercraft]

Hi, thanks again for your help. I'm a courier; the insurance companies always stuff us.

 

Thanks again for everyone's help, I'll keep the post updated.

[hovercraft]

Hello all,

 

Thanks again. I managed to get an online course yesterday, for 08:00 today, and completed it online from home using "Zoom". It went very well, decent chap running it, very helpful, knowledgeable, and explained things clearly. It's surprising how much you think you know, should know, and don't know.

 

Cheers, and stay safe.

[honeybee13]

Thank you for letting us know, that's helpful.

 

HB

[Man in the middle]

Good news! Did the course mention dual carriageways???   

[honeybee13]

Good point, MitM.

 

HB

[hovercraft]

Cheers MitM.

 

Yes, basically saying "if it's paint it an't" As stated in a post above, it must have a physical separation.