Litter Fine - incorrect details on ticket

[ratmin]

Hi,

 

I was in the town center today and as i stood outside a shop eating my sandwich i noticed a pigeon hobbling past me looking for food

i threw him a piece of bread which he ate.

 

Within 30 seconds i had an enforcement officer come over and tell me he was issuing me with a £150 for littering.

I was absolutely gobsmacked and initially refused to give my details over.

 

He said that would be an offence which would incur an extra fine plus he would call the police i gave him my name and address.

He then issued me with a fixed penalty notice and i left.

 

After arriving home i have noticed on the ticket that he has written the time as 01.48.

Now he hasn't written AM or PM

im treating the time as a 24 hour clock in which case he is stating the offence was committed in the early hours of the morning which is completely wrong.

Can i challenge this on the grounds that the offence(if you can even call it that) did not occur at the time written.

 

thank you           

[Man in the middle]

Yes you can. Simply decline the fixed penalty offer and you will see the matter go to court. The prosecution will call the officer as a witness. He will say that the incident occurred at 1:48. The prosecutor will ask him if that was 01:48 or 13:48 and he will say 13:48 or 1:48pm. You can cross examine him and ask him whether the event occurred in the middle of the day or the middle of the night and he will clarify the issue for the court.

 

The "ticket" you have been given forms no part of the evidence that will be used to convict you. That will consist of the officer's statement. If you want to question anything in his statement (such as the time of day) he will be called to court and you can ask him as above.

Edited March 19, 2020 by Man in the middle

[ratmin]

I dont know maybe im still tired or still gobsmacked but your 2nd paragraph has left me slightly confused. 

 

If the ticket forms 'no part' of the evidence wont the officer just say one forty-eight and if i ask him to clarify he will just say the day without me being able to 'produce' the ticket as evidence.  

[dx100uk]

the ticket is not proof of the offence or the time of the offence, it's when it was written out.

his statement is the evidence .

 

 

 

[Manxman in exile]

Never mind Man in the middle's second paragraph - have you read his first paragraph?  He is suggesting that if you were to allow this to get to court (and I'm not sure if that will be more expensive for you if you lose but I suspect it might be) then the prosecution will clarify the time with the witness before you get a chance to do or say anything.

 

Or are you expecting to conduct a cross-examination like:  "So Mr Litter Enforcement Officer, you say the offence was committed at 1:48pm.  How do you know it was pm and not am?"   "Errr... it was broad daylight and I saw you do it".

 

PS - Don't feed the pigeons...

[ratmin]

It was a pigeon(plural) and the piece was about 1cm. I dont know maybe i have more empathy than others.  

[Manxman in exile]

They (singular and/or plural) are aerial vermin.  It's not a question of empathy.

[ratmin]

11 minutes ago, dx100uk said:

the ticket is not proof of the offence or the time of the offence, it's when it was written out.

his statement is the evidence .

 

 

 

If thats the case what is the point in putting the details of the time,location,date on the ticket if it doesnt really count for much.

[ratmin]

14 minutes ago, Manxman in exile said:

They (singular and/or plural) are aerial vermin.  It's not a question of empathy.

 

I could discuss a whole topic on this with you but we will go off track. Anybody else with any thoughts?    

[Man in the middle]

The "ticket" simply contains the offer of a Fixed Penalty (£150) being made to you to dispose of the matter without court action. You can accept or decline it. That's all it's for.

 

If the matter goes to court the officer will provide a statement (probably compiled from a combination of his memory, any notes he made and his copy of the ticket) to support the prosecution. It's that which matters as far as court action goes.

 

If you want him to give his evidence in person rather than have the court accept his statement he will do so and if you believe the court will have any doubt you committed the offence because of the time issue you can question him about it. You can specifically ask him what he meant by writing "01:48" and he will tell the court. Please believe me. Or not, it's up to you.

 

If you are convicted in court (a racing certainty) it will certainly cost you more than £150. Even without the fine, most public bodies will ask for at least £300 in costs to run a trial, which you will be ordered to pay.

[lelu19uk]

Im not an expert but u fed a pigeon. Try googling 'fed a pigeon and got a littering fine' there are loads of articles to read where people have got mps involved and they have asked companies if the fine is proportionate. If you are determined to fight this it might be worth a read.

[dx100uk]

MPS?

 

dx

 

[ratmin]

MPS?

7 hours ago, lelu19uk said:

Im not an expert but u fed a pigeon. Try googling 'fed a pigeon and got a littering fine' there are loads of articles to read where people have got mps involved and they have asked companies if the fine is proportionate. If you are determined to fight this it might be worth a read.

 

mps? member of parliament?

[Homer67]

This incident raises a question I'd like clarified: Litter Enforcement Officers cannot detain you, so presuming there is no Plod with them and they have to request one, what's stopping you walking away or running away?

 

Also how do they prove the details you give are yours?  I could easily give several addresses  which I've lived at with a false name, I'm aware that this is probably a serious crime (obstruction etc) but to get you away from a situation it could be done.

[BankFodder]

I think you're right – it does turn into a more serious crime – and I would strongly recommend that people don't do this.