Making a new Will - thinking through options available.

[Primrose13]

My husband and I made a Will years ago and this was complied by a Solicitor.  The solicitors are the Executors if both my husband and I died leaving the estate to our two children who were then in their 20's.  It sat in the draw whilst life events kept us VERY occupied and somehow it was not thought about again whilst the years go by. 

 

I feel really ashamed that we did not update it and now have read that using a solicitor could be more expensive than it need be.  So not only am I carrying guilt but the corona virus, being we are in our 70's, has sent me into a panic!!!   

 

I know 'act in haste and repent in leisure' but somehow being in 'self isolation'  i.e. we are not going out unless really necessary so feel this is the time to at least do an updated 'interim' Will. 

 

Unfortunately we have no relatives that we could talk this through with so I am grateful to have this opportunity here.    

 

We knew the Will would need updating and it was going to be, within the next year, as a family we were making exciting plans with our unmarried son to rethink our properties. 

 

So now these initial questions come to mind -

 

1. I have read about making your own Will - printed out Age UK - Steps 'How to write a Will'.  (So I have 'the steps'.)

2. Have seen advertised McMillan and Air Ambulance will service but surely nothing is Free?

3. Our son is the eldest, has never been an executor but is capable but if he was made executor could he get the professional help he required if it became too difficult?

 

Maybe I stop here and wait for any thoughts which would be gratefully received. 

[BankFodder]

I'm afraid this is not my area of experience and so I'm not going to comment on anything at the moment although I'll keep an eye on this thread.

I'm afraid that I'm responding here for an altogether different reason and that is the fact that you have the virus.

I'm very sorry about this and I'm sure it must be a very anxious time. This may sound a bit voyeuristic – sticking my nose into your personal business – but hopefully you know this community well enough to know that we are straight dealing and interested in helping others.

I'm wondering whether you might be prepared to start a new thread simply on the question of the virus that you have contracted – and tell us something about the history of it, how you think you got it, how it is affecting you – and so forth. Also, what kind of support or assistance are you receiving from the relevant social or national health services.

I appreciate that you might find this request distressing and you may not want to do it – but I think that you would find a huge amount of support from people here.

 

We don't have a specific forum for this – and it's only your post now which has made me think about this.

If you would be prepared to start a new thread then I will create a sub- forum in our community area and move it there and you will be able to monitor it. I can imagine that people will have lots of questions for you – but also it wouldn't surprise me if other people came in with their own experiences and you would probably benefit from those as well. You might feel less isolated.

I hope you don't find this request to be offensive. It is really well intended – and in the best interests of everyone. I think it's very important that information manages to get around the community as effectively as the virus seems to be doing!

If you are prepared to start new thread, then maybe you could title it "I have the coronavirus". That will automatically tweet out on our Twitter feed and that will also help many people who follow us.

I really wish you all the best – and I expect that other people more knowledgeable than I am in the area of Wills will be along shortly. I think you have raised a very important question

[BankFodder]

In fact I have just opened a new sub- forum.

If you or anyone else would like to post their coronavirus experiences – then here is the forum

https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/383-coronavirus-–-covid-19/

[Ethel Street]

First question is, are you thinking of making only minor changes to the Will - which you can do by adding a Codicil - or something more substantial which will need a completely new Will? As you refer to "rethinking our properties' I'm guessing a new Will is needed.

 

A solicitor is likely to cost more than DIY Wills when you make the Will. Only you know whether the cost would be significant sum to you or something worth paying to get good professional advice. But if the Will is not properly drafted or the tax implications (for example) haven't been understood that could cost a lot to sort out after you have gone. And if a solicitor does get it wrong you can sue them for negligence. If you go DIY there's no-one to sue. It also depends how complex you are going to make your affairs when you 'rethink our properties'. If it involves creating a Trust don't even think about doing it without a solicitor.

 

Personally I have used a solicitor every time I have written or changed my Will, but that's just my preference. Many people write simple Wills using templates from Age UK etc with no problems if their financial affairs are straightforward.

 

I've seen the ads by charities for Will writing but have no personal experience. I'm sure what they hope is that you will be so grateful for their free service that you bequeath something to them in your Will.

 

I've been Executor 4 times and it isn't difficult unless you have complex finances such as  a Trust.. I have no professional background and no training in being an Executor, just researched it online. There's plenty of professionally written advice available - I bought one of those  'Executor packs' written by a solicitor which had specimens of the forms, step by step instructions etc. Your son is in his 30s/40s  and you say he is capable so it sounds like he could be your Executor. But what I think is irrelevant - do you have confidence he could do it?

 

As Executor your son can always see a solicitor for advice at any time. That could be for limited advice on a specific issue only - eg a beneficiary who can't be found - or  he could instruct a solicitor to do the whole thing for him. That's using the solicitor to act for the Executor, which is different to what you have now, which is the solicitor being the Executor. Solicitor's costs would come out of your Estate. BTW Executors generally cannot be paid to be the Executor (expenses reimbursement only) but a firm of solicitors is the exception. They can be (and always are) paid for being the Executor.

 

If you are self isolating because of corona virus you could still get the process of drafting a new Will started with the solicitor by email. 

 

 

Edited March 14, 2020 by Ethel Street

[Primrose13]

13 minutes ago, BankFodder said:

In fact I have just opened a new sub- forum.

If you or anyone else would like to post their coronavirus experiences – then here is the forum

https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/383-coronavirus-–-covid-19/

So sorry for mis-leading you !!!

 

I wrote - and I quote -

 

' So not only am I carrying guilt but the corona virus, being we are in our 70's, has sent me into a panic!!! ' 

 

I know 'act in haste and repent in leisure' but somehow being in 'self isolation'  i.e. we are not going out unless really necessary so feel this is the time to at least do an updated 'interim' Will. 

 

What I was trying to say was both my husband and I have underlying health issues and with our age - we are NOT going out unless we have to.  

 

(Listening to Radio 4 this morning I believe a support forum is being set up and possibility of a 20 min phone call with a Councillor  - maybe anyone interested can listen to the program again.) 

 

Thank you for setting up a new sub-forum and again my apologies for mis-leading you.

 

[honeybee13]

I agree with what Ethel says. I've always had wills drawn up by a solicitor and it doesn't cost much. But I wouldn't make them executors.

 

Your son could be ideal and as Ethel says, can call in legal help if parts of the probate get complicated. I dealt with my mother's probate myself [with a lot of help from the government IHT and Probate helplines] and saved a fortune in lawyers' fees. It wasn't difficult, just painstaking.

 

HB

[BankFodder]

12 minutes ago, Primrose13 said:

 

Thank you for setting up a new sub-forum and again my apologies for mis-leading you.

 

 

I'm not sure that you have misled me at all. Please don't apologise.

If there is an existing support forum then if you post the link here then I will post up on the new sub- forum which I have opened.

Meanwhile you might like to engage with people in this CAG community on it as well – but of course it's a very personal choice

[BankFodder]

Just to add to the comments – whereas the cost of making a will or amending a will or adding a codicil are effectively a one-off cost, I can imagine that it is when solicitors are appointed to be executors that things can start to get complicated and pricey – and maybe also suffer undue delay.

If you have a son who is competent then it might well be best to appoint that son as an executor with various duties to distribute your estate as per your wishes. This will probably save a lot of money – and also you won't have to deal with solicitors you won't be very transparent about what they're doing or why the delay et cetera. As no doubt your son is one of the beneficiaries of the will, he will be able to discuss directly with his cobeneficiary – your other child and that also will save a lot of trouble, suspicion – because everybody will know what they're doing and will remain in control.

 

This assumes that the two children get on with each other. If they don't – then you have another set of problems to deal with.

[Primrose13]

Ethel, Honeybee13 and BankFodder - thank you.  

 

I know we would have gone and seen a solicitor to arrange what we would like to do IF it became a possibility regrading our properties in about 12 months time.  (In a way the current situation regarding the virus has made me sit up and THINK now about how our present Will is written years ago, and they are the Executors.)   

 

I hate this horrible feeling of guilt that I neglected to 'explore' our Will and make necessary changes - when our circumstances changed i.e. no mortgage, etc.  At the time leaving everything to each other and then to our children. 

 

Now - I will concentrate on the thoughts you have provided for me today.  (I feel so naive on this - mainly because we have no extended 'family' experience.)

 

So -

 

1. My husband and I own our property as Joint Ownership and no mortgage

2. My husband and I own  - as Joint Tenants  and no mortgage a piece of agricultural land with a 'yard' that in the future we would apply for PP. 

3. Our son has a house only a few miles away, but still has a mortgage, but would be able to sell when he wanted to.

 

Our son has expressed the need to be there for us in the future.  So we explored the idea if PP on 'the land' was granted our existing properties are sold and we are 'all on site'.  In other words not quite like a Granny Annex but 'detached' similarities.  (It would also mean if our daughter needed support in say years to come we would not be ALL living under the same roof but there for each other as we are now.) 

 

It goes without saying our future thoughts would definitely need serious legal advice and safeguards built in to cover for eventualities.

 

3. But - in the meantime - this existing Will needs to be changed.  The firm who we used then have moved their offices further away.  I can approach the local solicitor who in fact dealt with our land purchase - to make new Wills.

 

So... maybe I leave it here - now that I have provided more information and would be grateful for your thoughts. By the way I know that word IHT comes up - I guess - if our son had to deal with this.  But again never dealt with something like this before and how it could affect us.

 

Note: I did look quickly at the link HB gave in her posting above on Probate.  (But at moment head in a spin and need a Cup of Tea.)

 

 

Edited March 14, 2020 by Primrose13

[Manxman in exile]

I would always use a solicitor to draw up a will unless your wishes are relatively straightforward.  The biggest danger in a DIY will is that you do not take account of all the "what if scenarios".  What happens if you and your husband die years apart or what happens if you die together?  What happens if one or more of your beneficiaries die before you?  What if your chosen executor dies before you?  What if one of you dies and the other remarries?  (This happened in my family and led to an almighty bust-up.  It happens!) The list of "what ifs" is not endless, but the solicitor drawing up your will will go through them with you.

 

(To give a personal example, my wife is a solicitor and we have three law degrees between us and the Law of succession - ie wills - was one of my specialist subjects.  When we got married we thought we'd do our own wills.  We did, and we made a hopeless mess of it!  And we didn't have any children!  We ended up paying a solicitor to do it.)

 

You may only have one chance to get your will right.  Once you are dead you can't say " No...no...that's not what I meant!"  Shop around different solicitors for competitive quotes.  (I would guess you'd be looking at £200 to £500 tops depending where you live).

 

Whatever you do - do not appoint solicitors or any other professionals as executors!  If your son is reasonably intelligent he'll be able to cope and can get help from forums like this or Money Saving Expert or the .gov website.   And do not use a firm of will writers to write the will.

 

I'm sorry, but I'd also be wary of having any involvement with charities to write the will or be executors.  Leave a bequest if you must but think carefully what you are doing.  Charities can be a bit of a PITA when they are beneficiaries under a will.  If I wanted to leave anything to charity, I'd gift it during my life, not from my estate.

 

If your testamentary wishes are absolutely straightforward, then consider a DIY will, but think carefully as to whether it is worth it.  You mention "children" in your opening paragraph but then only mention a single son.  Is it a simple case of "everything to our son"?

 

You also mention self-isolation.  If you want a will done ASAP, remember you need two witnesses who are not beneficiaries (or spouses of beneficiaries) under the wills.  Can you do that if you are self-isolating?  I'm sure solicitors could (they provide their own witnesses).

 

PS - Remember you are talking about two wills.  Some people are under the mistaken impression that two people can make a single joint will.  You can't.  And you really do need a solicitor to explain what the surviving partner can do after the first of you dies.  It's not nice to think of but you do need to be aware of it and consider it.

[BankFodder]

Just to say that I now understand that the OP does not have the virus – but instead they are exercising an abundance of caution by isolating themselves as much as possible.

This is a highly responsible thing to do – and I'm sure there must be some hardship involved. But I suppose that the whole situation has raised anxieties about the state of their will which is what has prompted them to start this thread.

[Primrose13]

Thank you both.  Yes - this virus situation has made us feel more vulnerable.

 

Manxman -

 

Thank you for your very helpful explanation and it really helps. 

 

1. Yes - I am sure our son will be able to deal with it.  Yes - we have two 'children' but one cannot cope with stress through a medical condition.  Having said that they would be upset if they are not included we are sure.  So delicate situation.  We are considering naming them as a second exec if our son is not able to do it BUT making sure they understand that they can turn to a professional to take over.  (if we left them out then the emotional hurt at a stressful time is just not fair.)

 

2. It did occur to me about re-marry/new partner - which my husband declares I would never have anyone else!!!  I did jokingly say to him she only has to bring a lovely apple pie to the door!

 

BUT - seriously though I saw it happen with an Uncle years ago - terrible for his adult children and they lost the belongings that belong to their mother who was killed in a RTA.   So..... how would you write something like that in a Will e.g. if my other half remarries or takes a partner they will not inherit MY share or personal effects?

 

3. So if I write down our wishes as to how our 'estate' should be divided (son will have land) and contents shared out - if we both die - is this something that could be attached to the Will?   

 

Note: I thought we could say between them they decided what happens to our house i.e. sell or live in it.  The value of the land (without Planning Permission)  The value of our house then is compared to the value of the land.  The house will be more and the difference divided.  Is that too simple????

 

I suppose I should be pleased at least we have a Will - even though solicitors exec - but better than none I guess. 

 

I hope to get on with this - this week.

 

I will go for the local solicitor and I would guess we could do most by email and telephone.  When we are satisfied we go to office and keep our distance and he can witness and a secretary?

 

P.S. Yes - we have two Wills at present - do they call them mirror image or something.

 

 

Edited March 15, 2020 by Primrose13

[Ethel Street]

41 minutes ago, Primrose13 said:

BUT - seriously though I saw it happen with an Uncle years ago - terrible for his adult children and they lost the belongings that belong to their mother who was killed in a RTA.   So..... how would you write something like that in a Will e.g. if my other half remarries or takes a partner they will not inherit MY share or personal effects?

 

3. So if I write down our wishes as to how our 'estate' should be divided (son will have land) and contents shared out - if we both die - is this something that could be attached to the Will?   

 

Note: I thought we could say between them they decided what happens to our house i.e. sell or live in it.  The value of the land (without Planning Permission)  The value of our house then is compared to the value of the land.  The house will be more and the difference divided.  Is that too simple????

 

I can't tell you the answer to that but they are excellent examples of why you need a solicitor to draft your Will!

 

"Mirror Wills"  or "Mirror Image Wills" are as you say, your and your husband's Will are more or less identical. Typically that whichever of you dies first leaves everything to the other. You save money doing 'mirror image' Wills, effectively a 'two for one' price from solicitors.  But doing them mirror image just to save money is missing the point - it has to be what you both want to happen after you die.

 

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/all-notices/content/101046

 

https://www.birdandco.co.uk/site/blog/bird-blog/what-are-mirror-wills-and-are-they-a-good-idea

Edited March 15, 2020 by Ethel Street

[Manxman in exile]

Yes - they will be mirror wills.  The "problem" with mirror wills is that the surviving partner can revoke/change their will after the death of the first spouse.  Or if the surviving partner remarries, their will is automatically revoked by the marriage.  I'm sure if you are both in your 70s you believe this will never happen - but it could!  It happened in my family and the children of a first marriage ended up being disinherited in favour of step-children.  There are such things called mutual wills which get around this problem, but they almost always cause more problems than they solve and are very unusual these days.

 

This is the main reason why you need legal advice and ideally need a will drafted by a solicitor.  You need to ask the question:  "What if I die first and my husband marries someone else?"  I know it's a difficult question even to contemplate, but you do need legal advice about how to accomplish what you want.

 

In the meantime you have "a will".  If you are reasonably happy your son could act as executor you might want in the short term to remove the solicitors as executors.  How you do that I don't know.  Can you do it by a codicil?  Can you get something in writing from the solicitors whereby they agree to renounce the executorship?  Does it require a new will?  I don't know.  If no-one else here does, you could try asking local CAB or a different solicitor or try either of these:

 

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/categories/deaths-funerals-probate

 

https://google.info/forums/forum/legal-forums/wills-probate-and-bereavement

 

In the longer term you need to get a proper new will done.  I'd arrange it sooner rather than later.  (Not because your in danger of dying soon - just for peace of mind!  See a solicitor!

Edited March 15, 2020 by Manxman in exile

[Primrose13]

To Quote - In the meantime you have "a will".  If you are reasonably happy your son could act as executor you might want in the short term to remove the solicitors as executors.  How you do that I don't know.  Can you do it by a codicil?  Can you get something in writing from the solicitors whereby they agree to renounce the executorship?  Does it require a new will?  I don't know.  If no-one else here does, you could try asking local CAB or a different solicitor or try either of these:

 

Phone original solicitor tomorrow  - nothing lost 

 

(a) The current Will states my husband would be the executor if I die and visa versa.  Then if neither of us are surviving the firm will be Executors. 

 

So I need to clarify if our son is 53 years of age - can he be written in as Executor and our second 'child' as next executor.  Also taking them out as Executors.  (They would be Trustees if our children or surviving children if one of them dies is below 18? ) 

 

(b) Can it be done by email or letter as we are 'self-isolating'.   

 

Next -

 

Phone new solicitor tomorrow - 

 

(c) If I get a reply of existing Will solicitor - phone 'new' solicitor asking what would the time limit factor be, given the current world crisis to arrange a Will that suits our needs by discussion over phone first. 

 

(d) Out of interest could 'new' solicitor look at our Will via their system?  Not sure if it is a silly question but they have means to access records don't they?

 

Anyway something like that................ 

 

Manxman - I am taking note of your important points and will look at links tomorrow.

 

Thank you all again - so much.

Edited March 15, 2020 by Primrose13

[Primrose13]

Thank you - Ethel Street - for the links I will look at them tomorrow.

 

 

[Manxman in exile]

If you get no more useful info here, I'd try asking on the two links I gave above tomorrow.  Those are both boards which specialise in "will" type questions.  The second board has (or had) at least one contributor (name of peridot) who is a probate lawyer.  Unfortunately traffic is a bit slow on that board and you may have to wait a couple of days for responses.  You'll get more and quicker responses on the other one (Money Saving Expert) and contributors seem quite knowledgeable.  Ask how you should go about removing the solicitors as executors in the short term before doing a more thought out revision of your wills.

 

I'd speak to your new solicitors first for advice on how to proceed in your situation (including removing the other solicitors as executors on your current wills).  If you speak to the current solicitors first, they may not be so helpful - if you see what I mean!

 

I suppose if you were really desperate now, you could just copy the existing will and put your son as executor with daughter as a backup.  Problem is, if your existing will is quite old, it may not do what you want it to do because of changes in legislation etc.

 

So you do really need advice how to continue.  Good luck!

Edited March 16, 2020 by Manxman in exile

[Primrose13]

Manxman  - thank you 

 

'I'd speak to your new solicitors first for advice on how to proceed in your situation (including removing the other solicitors as executors on your current wills).  If you speak to the current solicitors first, they may not be so helpful - if you see what I mean!'

 

My thoughts - this morning I too thought phone new solicitor.  Find out how he would go about it given current 'crisis' when it comes to discussion,  signing and time scales.

 

'Problem is, if your existing will is quite old, it may not do what you want it to do because of changes in legislation etc.'

 

My thoughts - looking through it a part is written -  'my husband if he survives me by 28 days' - I found a piece of paper that I had put in our Wills at a later date - BUT DID NOTHING - saying a statement like that negates the loophole re inheritance tax. 

 

So I am sure legislation will have changed.

 

Will keep in touch.

 

[Primrose13]

Update - emailed our local solicitor and explained that we wanted our son Executor. 

 

He has just phoned me and said they are VERY busy because of the virus and said if it was going to be a complicated Will i.e. it could be easier to make a new Will.  If that was what we wanted to do - he is not able to say if and when - as he or his staff may not be available and besides it is wise that we stay at home.

 

So in the meantime he suggested we think about doing a Codicil via the original solicitors to elect our son as Executor.  (Getting two signatures in the village where we live.)   Until such time we can talk in his office about a new Will.

 

So I have just emailed original solicitors (who are 40 miles away now) saying what we would like and providing all details of date, etc of our original Wills.  

 

I am sure legislation has changed - but - what would have happened anyway if we both died, say in an accident, they would have to work on these Wills surely?

 

Hopefully, that will be a good interim move and will let you know the response from Will solicitors. 

 

P.S. Just read a clause that (on my husbands same as mine) that includes 'mutual' -

 

'I declare that although my wife is making a will of even date and in similar terms to this my Will the two Wills are not intended to be mutual Wills and each of us is free to revoke or alter his or her Will both during our joint lives and during the life of the survivor.'

 

 

[Manxman in exile]

Follow the advice from your new solicitor is what I'd say.  If they say you can change the executor on current wills by a codicil then I presume they know what they are talking about.  If you decide you want to go down that short term route, double-check with them how you do it properly.

 

Mutual wills can cause much bigger problems than they solve.  The solicitor who drew up your current wills wanted it made clear they were NOT mutual wills.  That makes sense.

 

[With mutual wills the surviving partner cannot change their will after the first person dies.  Although that can be advantageous in some situations, in others it can be unfair and too restrictive and generally our legal system does not like the idea of mutual wills, and they are best avoided - except for very good reason, of which there are very few].

[Primrose13]

Thank you Manxman.

 

My husband likes our local solicitor (as I said he dealt with our land purchase) BUT as he said it could take some time - and - how long is a piece of string.  I will wait and see what the solicitors say that we have our Wills with at present.

 

Hopefully, tomorrow, I will get a reply from them.  It is making me feel quite nervous as though I am running out of time.  Maybe it is because I am the worrying type and feel guilty that I should have done this before. 

 

  

[Manxman in exile]

Easy for me to say but try not to worry about it.  Just try your best to sort it out.

 

I'm pretty sure you'll have nothing to worry about and it'll all be ok.

[hello12345]

When my father made a will the solicitor gave him a copy and the solicitor kept the original. When he died I needed the original but only to find the solicitor had shut down.

I found out, I think its law they pass on all the wills to another solicitor. There's a online site that tells you where they have been passed onto if you type in the original solicitor business name and address

[Ethel Street]

10 hours ago, hello12345 said:

 

I found out, I think its law they pass on all the wills to another solicitor. There's a online site that tells you where they have been passed onto if you type in the original solicitor business name and address

 

 

Is this the site you are thinking of, the National Will Register?  https://www.nationalwillregister.co.uk   Although I don't think the OP in this thread has a 'missing Will' problem. She knows where the Will is but wants to change it.

[Primrose13]

Good morning everyone and I hope this finds you safe and well.

 

Phew - yesterday I had the email from our solicitor to say our signed Codicils have arrived and been deposited in their safe.  We will receive copies next week.

 

It has been pretty stressful - but everyone has their own battles to deal with both mentally and physically given what we are all having to adjust to.

 

After deciding we could not waste time we have used the firm that we have our original Wills with.  They are a very large firm and of course had more staff than our local solicitor.  I was able to scan forms of identification and the communication with the 'Lifetime Executive' was very helpful throughout even when working part time at home. At no time did not not get a reply or contact numbers, etc.

 

When the Codicils arrived in the post we gave them 72 hours on their own out in our conservatory.  (Really not sure about handling post - we are putting it in quarantine.)

 

Of course then came the issue of getting witness to sign.  Thankfully our neighbours were very obliging and with the required distance, hard back folders to use as a desk all carried out either side of a their five barred gate.  (Keeping to the required distance, hand sanitizers, gloves, etc, etc.  Then placing ALL paperwork back on our conservatory garden table and leaving it on its own for 72 hours before I scanned it, forwarded it, and then posted originals.)

 

So - getting witness signatures - etc all would have been so much easier IF we could have gone to the solicitors in the first place.

 

All the worry - has to have been worth it - we have Codicils to our Wills in a safe.  Oh! Yes - free of charge!  Our invoice was £540.00 - so that's nice to get a free gift.

 

Thank you all for your support. 

 

.