CPM PCN - No Permit - Phoenix Avenue, Greenwich, London

[starfarer]

On appeal to a penalty charge, received email which is as : 

 

Quote

Dear Mr XXXX,

 

Thank you for your correspondence. I am writing to inform you that PPC can obtain your details from the DVLA through reasonable cause criteria for pursuing an outstanding parking charge up to 6 months after the contravention/incident date.

 

The parking charge notice was issued as a breach of contract occurred. The vehicle was parked in a manner whereby the driver became liable for a Parking Charge Notice and therefore The Protection of Freedom Act 2012 is irrelevant and does not apply.

 

On the Notice to Keeper it clearly states “If you were not the driver of the vehicle stated when the vehicle was parked in the above manner, or you were the keeper of the vehicle stated when the vehicle was parked in the above manner but it was in the possession of another person (either with or without your consent), please provide any information that will lead to the true identification of the driver responsible by completing our online Transfer of Liability form at www.xxxx.com within 28 days of this notice”. Therefore, if you wish to transfer the liability to the driver of the vehicle at the time of the contravention, please submit this online via www.xxx.com

 

However, if you were the driver of the vehicle and wish to appeal the parking charge notice you may do so via https://www.xxx.com

 

Please be advised, the full address of the restricted area is ‘xxx Avenue, London'.

 

The operative was not required to include an image of the vehicle windscreen, as per the signage within the area, all vehicles must be pre-authorised with a valid Electronic Permit to be parked within the restricted area.

 

Please Note. You were issued with a postal PCN (NTO). There are several reasons for a notice to owner to be sent in the post, for instance many of our sites have had reports of windscreen parking charge notices being removed from vehicles. A notice to owner is to ensure that the parking charge notice is sent direct to the vehicle owner.

 

If you would like to make payment you can do so in the following ways

…….…...

 

and how best to answer this?

 

Can I write back to say as a registered keeper that I'm not required to disclose the driver's details and as you've admitted that PoF2012 is irrelevant in this charge,

please do not send any more invoice or correspondence regarding this charge? 

 

[dx100uk]

 

1 hour ago, starfarer said:

On appeal to a penalty charge, received email which is as : 

 

Penalty Charge??

 

please complete this:

 

 

[lookinforinfo]

It's a pity you appealed before coming to this part of the Forum.

By appealing and no doubt revealing yourself to be the driver , you have lost the protection of POFA 2012.

 

Not the end of the world as most of these companies fail to establish a contract between themselves and the motorist sufficient to be able to wiin at Court. they know this but persevere knowing that most people will fold before then and pay them some ridiculous figure that was never owed in the first place.

 

As a start to getting your defence together please fill in the form above and don't worry nor write to them again unless you receive a letter of claim from them. That you let us know straight away.

 

You will also receive letters on their behalf .from unregulated debt collectors and incompetent solicitors that can be safely ignored-ie do NOT write to them.

 

Sadly there is no quick fix and having complained too early you are regarded as a sure thing to pay up.

So don't panic and remain safe with the knowledge that you owe them nothing.

 

But wait till all the things that they have done wrong in your case, plus the errors they will make along the way,

then you hit them with everything you know which should have them diving back into their dirty little world-thousands of miles from any of us.

[starfarer]

1 Date of the infringement 02/02/2019

 

2 Date on the NTK [this must have been received within 14 days from the 'offence' date] 04/02/2020

 

3 Date received 26/02/2020

 

4 Does the NTK mention schedule 4 of The Protections of Freedoms Act 2012? [Y/N?] no

 

5 Is there any photographic evidence of the event? yes. picture of vehicle from rear

 

6 Have you appealed? [Y/N?] post up your appeal] Y :

 

I dispute your 'parking charge', as the keeper of the vehicle. I deny any liability or contractual agreement as follows:

• PCN issued failed to mention the alleged contravention to which this charge is due
• The evidence provided doesn’t show any form of restrictions
• PCN state it’s a “Restricted Area” but failed to mention the kind of restrictions applicable on alleged location
• PCN state reason to issue is “no permit” but fails to mention the type of permit
• PCN fails to mention the duration of alleged parking and applicable grace period if any
• As such no breach of conditions as stated in PCN
• The evidence provided is the rear view of vehicle. What method was used to issue this PCN?
• If issued by enforcement officer, why was the PCN not fixed to the vehicle but sent via post as Notice to Owner thereby invalidating this PCN
• If issued remotely by camera, how was the operator able to identify “permit” attached to windscreen of a vehicle at the time of this alleged contravention which clearly shows low visibility due to darkness
• PCN issued is not fully compliant with Schedule 4 Protection of Freedom Ac 2012 as section (8)(2)(f) was not mentioned per requirements thereby invalidating any liability as a registered keeper.

 

Please consider this a request to provide if unable to cancel this charge:

- The proof of authorisation as claimed on PCN for the alleged location of contravention

- The full explanation to questions raised above

In all cases, you must include a close up actual photograph of the sign you contend was at the location on the material date.

 

Have you had a response? [Y/N?] post it up Y. see above

 

7 Who is the parking company? CPM

 

8. Where exactly [carpark name and town] Phoenix Avenue, Greenwich London

 

For either option, does it say which appeals body they operate under. NO

[dx100uk]

was this a windscreen PCN and you have it still?

 

dx

 

[starfarer]

no. received the charge by post but reading their reply posted on 1st post, think it is issued by "operative" and not ANPR. When I looked the images on NTO, it seemed to me that the photos were taken from ground level so raised the question re why it was not attached/handed to driver at the time. 

Edited March 5, 2020 by starfarer

[FTMDave]

Are the fleecers claiming you didn't show a permit?

[starfarer]

i don't know. Don't think anyone actually came asking for permit. 

[dx100uk]

so the old vanishing windscreen ticket trick then

we call it MNPR 

which is why there is not picture of the front of the car with it attached.

 

easily defeated in court should they be stupid enough to do court.

 

it will be a permit only area then, and CPM certainly can't do you for trespass.

 

they'e only run this because you appealed and sorry but obviously didn't have a clue what you were doing

so thought one last threat-o-gram would scare you into coughing up.

expect a whole forest of letters from various powerless DCA's who have ZERO legal powers on ANY debt, no matter what the type, and are NOT BAILIFFS

 

do NOT ignore a 'letter of claim' from one of the many fake/tame paperwork only solicitors (letterhead for hire - here use this in your printer mate) .

comeback here if you do.

 

 

[starfarer]

Thanks. Thought the new rule on PPC is to reply on NTO so used online to make an appeal.

 

What i'm looking more is PoFA2012 and CPM replied that it's irrelevant in this case.

So does that mean as a registered keeper I'm not liable for this fine and I'm not obliged by law to disclose the driver's detail? 

 

[lookinforinfo]

Well done for replying as the keeper.

Can you explain the dates on the NTK  [04/02/20] which seems extaordinarily quick, but you didn't receive it till the 26/02/20?

 

No point writing to them again

-they are not going to cancel the PCN since they make no money that way.

 

They will also keep writing demanding payment and also using unregulated debt collectors and useless solicitors. 

 

In addition, your letter to them was [ahem] slightly half cock which will encourage them to continue to pursue you since that believe you do not have sufficient knowledge so they want to frighten you into paying.

 

You are not legally obliged to reveal the driver nor are you legally obliged probably to pay this PCN.

So don't write to them anymore.

 

They know they haven't a leg to stand on but they don't know yet that you also know that.

 

Do as dx suggests on a previous post and do nothing unless you receive a letter of claim.

Everything else you can [and should ] safely ignore.

[starfarer]

ok thanks. That appeal was a quick one on tablet  . Date received is typo as should be 7th Feb 2020. 

 

[dx100uk]

1 hour ago, starfarer said:

Thanks. Thought the new rule on PPC is to reply on NTO so used online to make an appeal.

 

What i'm looking more is PoFA2012 and CPM replied that it's irrelevant in this case.

So does that mean as a registered keeper I'm not liable for this fine and I'm not obliged by law to disclose the driver's detail? 

 

 

its NOT A FINE!!

 

and there is no new rule you MUST reply to a private parking speculative invoice.

 

dx

 

[ericsbrother]

so let us start at the beginning

what was the date of the parking event?

waht was the date on the NTK they snet you?

what was the date you received it?

 

then tel us about the palce and whether it is near to you so you can get us some pictures of where your vehicle was and the siganeg that applies to the land. Now signage on the other side of the road applies to that side of the road so note all relevant details

 

In the maenwhile dont be writing to them again, they have had you leter telling them they are wrong but they are incompetent and greedy so will ignore the law and try and bully you out of money. let them waste thier cash chasing you.

[starfarer]

Hi, sorry for late reply as away. Anyway:

what was the date of the parking event? : 02/02/2020

waht was the date on the NTK they snet you? : 04/02/2020

what was the date you received it? : 07/02/2020

 

Don't have the pictures of the site but will take next weekend. The whole place is still under construction. The actual post code is SE10 0ER, Phoenix Avenue. The bay has sign board "Loading only 7am - 10am" and "Business permit holders at any other time". No barriers on entry points and was waiting for someone. Probably was there for 7/8 mins. 

 

From their NTO on last para  " ..the amount of the unpaid parking charge specified in this notice has not been paid in full, we will have the right to recover from the driver so much of that parking charge amount as remains unpaid."

 

 

 

 

[honeybee13]

Hi.

 

You've left your name at the top of their letter.

 

HB

[dx100uk]

images/posts removed
.
please do not post jpg picture images directly to a post
.
read upload and redact in jpg then convert using on of the listed websites there to convert to one multipage pdf only

.
that way only logged-in,registered and approved caggers are the only ones that can download and see them
.
else anyone can see them caggers or not.

dx

[starfarer]

pdf attached. Sorry for quality as taken by phone. PhoenixAvenue.pdf

[lookinforinfo]

You are quite right, you do not have to reveal the driver's name.

They rather sneakily state that if you want to appeal the PCN as the driver not as the keeper therefore.

 

As they do not rely on keeper liability, they have to know the identity of the driver to be successful in Court. Hence their little trick about appealing as the driver which you got round.

 

But all the same, it is better not to contact them again to prevent them proving you were the driver.

That does not meant that they will not claim you were driving, nor that they will not threaten you with Court -because they will. 

 

They are crooks, pure and simple-especially simple.

Too stupid to give up of course. 

 

Once we can see their signage I expect that will be the final nail in their case.

 

[starfarer]

Thanks & yes sure will follow the advice given here. 

[ericsbrother]

even better than I would hope for, the event was at night so signage not only forbidding it will be nigh on impossible to see in the dark anyway and that means inadequate notice of their offer (pah, what offer).

they say in the NTK that the terms and conditions for parking are set out by the signage- well that implies they are offering you somehting, ie a bare licence to park. WEll, thye cant say no parking them so no contraxt or at best a deficient one.

Result will still be the same, you cant owe them money

[FTMDave]

Have there been any new developments since March 2020?

 

I ask as we have a new case at the same location.