Cooker replaced by Hotpoint claims department. Substantially Different to old model *** Resolved***

[2ltr16valve]

Hi all 

 

need some advice please 

 

a few month ago our fan oven door outside glass broke while no one was home. The cooker was a HUD61PS duel fuel model. 
hotpoint agreed to repair free of charge and ended up picking the old cooker up and changing it for what we were told was a ‘like for like’ exchange. I specifically asked if there were any changes to the newer build and was told no just built newer. 
 

on using the cooker we noticed that the fan in the fan oven turns off once the oven reaches temperature. So the fan oven is only a part time fan oven ! Hotpoint tell me this is to make the energy rating better. 
Yet food has to be cooked for longer at a higher temperature to ensure it is cooked fully !!! 
e.g potato waffles - 12/15 mins usually at 200°

this oven they take at least 20 mins at 220° and still usually come out soggy ! 
a pie only come out half browned - keep in mind it’s meant to be a fan oven ! 
 

hotpoint are saying they will send an engineer out to see if it’s operating as intended .... but my argument is. It’s not the same oven we had or want ! We would never buy a fan oven that functioned like this. 
Or we can have a full refund for £389 which is curry’s current selling price .....  no chance finding a decent oven for that price. 
 

 

can we make hotpoint out us back in the position we was in prior e.g. with a cooker with a fan oven that works fully as a fan oven ? 

[BankFodder]

Yes I remember this story of yours. I'm going to merge this thread with your old one.

 

Actually, I was wrong. It wasn't you it was someone else

 

[BankFodder]

Who was the supplier of the original oven and when was it purchased?

If Hotpoint said that they are going to provide "like for like" then I would say that that doesn't necessarily mean that they going to replace it with the exact model if, for instance, the broken model is no longer sold. I would say that it would mean that they would replace it with the nearest equivalent.

How long have you had the replacement?

[2ltr16valve]

hi again  

 

the original supplier was AO but was out of warranty with them so hotpoint took it up. 
 

the oven was replaced around January time, with us notifying them we was not happy fairly shortly after delivery. 

hotpoint said the exact same model, which was delivered HUD61PS - but is only the same on model number. (Which I think is naughty as they changed a major function) 

 

 

 

[BankFodder]

Well firstly you haven't addressed my question as to when it was purchased.

Secondly, is there another model which has the same functions that you are looking for?

[2ltr16valve]

appologies missed those bits Delivered 17/02/2017

 

We haven’t looked as yet to be honest, I’m sure there must be within their group 

[BankFodder]

Will please have a look and then come back here with some information.

Also I have to say that I'm rather surprised that you've been here since 2008 and yet you still seem to be fixated on the manufacturer's warranty rather than your statutory rights.

 

[2ltr16valve]

The only model we can find from their group of companies which seems to work the way our last one did is this

 

https://ao.com/product/ch60dhwfs-cannon-by-hotpoint-harrogate-dual-fuel-cooker-white-26506-12.aspx?cmredirectionvalue=CH60DHwfs

 

The reason ive not considered the warrenty with ao and taking action in that regard is because hotpoint agreed to fix free of charge with parts free of charge. They then decided to change the cooker like for like - with myself personally asking if there were any changes and I was told 'No just a newer build'.

 

The item was delivered and we noticed that the main fan oven operates differently, as in the fan does not operate once the oven is up to temperature. Our old oven used to run all the time and cooked perfectly. The replacement does not cook evenly and takes longer to cook, as well as requiring a higher temperature.

 

Hotpoint sent an engineer out on 20/02/2020 so states that the cooker is operating as designed so they are now stating they will not replace a cooker that is working as they designed.

 

I am now looking at the prospect of issuing a small claim online as ,1) This cooker is substantially different to our previous model for which we were not advised.

 

Hotpoint record all calls which they tell you on every telephone call they make to you, so I intend to request these phone calls to support a claim if I make one.

 

 

 

[BankFodder]

Well I hope that you request a call recordings is successful – but I'm a bit surprised that you need them because I would have thought that you would by now have read our customer services guide and you would have your own recordings.

Just because a company says that it records your calls, doesn't mean that it does – and also it says nothing about the retention policy. They may have a retention policy of only a couple of months or so. There could be other more sinister reasons why they don't give them to you.
 

So you don't record your calls….  

I'm not quite sure what you're going to sue them for. You had a cooker which you have used since the beginning of 2017 – and that means that you had it for 2 1/2 years and used it successfully before the door broke.

They supplied you with a new cooker – which you are not entirely happy with because of the way the thermostat works – and now you are considering suing the supplier for the breaking of the door a few months ago.

If I were advising them, I would tell them to offer a cash settlement which included a reduction for 2 1/2 years of use against the full price of a brand-new cooker which you might reasonably expect to last seven or eight years.

I think if you had tackled the problem head-on when the door first broke and succeeded in pushing for a replacement door, then you would probably have succeeded – assuming that those doors were still available – but you would still be left with a cooker 2 1/2 years into its expected lifespan.

Instead, they supplied you with a new cooker which although work slightly differently, basically means that they have given you a free upgrade which is worth about 30% of the value of new cooker.

I'm sorry to say but I think you did quite well – and because you left it so long, it won't be possible to get your door reinstated because I suppose the cooker is long gone.

If you can get the recordings which say that you are going to receive "like for like" then that might be helpful, but it seems to me that what they given you as a gesture of goodwill – and you've accepted it and it may well be that you have forfeited any further rights as a result.

I suspect that you might come off the loser in this battle

[2ltr16valve]

 

I think you misunderstood what I’ve written. 
 

the cooker door was going to be replaced and we were happy wit that. Hotpoint decided not to do this and changed the cooker with what we were told was exactly the same. No changes. 
 

if you google HUD61PS not a real fan oven you will see lots of other customers with the same issues. The oven does not cook correctly ! 
someone please tell me what cooking instructions we follow ? Fan oven or conventional? This oven is neither .... 

 

we only accepted their ‘gesture of goodwill’ because we were told it was exactly the same. This is substantially different and not a genuine fan oven 

Edited February 22, 2020 by 2ltr16valve

[BankFodder]

Yes your right, maybe I have misunderstood.

In that case start off by sending an SAR and hopefully you will be able to get the call recordings.

However, as you no longer have the old cooker – so it can't be repaired, you may still be faced with the possibility of having a reduced settlement because of your 2 1/2 years of use. I don't think that anyone was obliged to replace your cooker like for like. I think that was a gesture of goodwill – and probably of convenience on their part – and I think that if it had become an issue at the time then they could eventually have gotten away with settling for a sum of money less the reduction.

Get the recordings and then we'll see what happens

[2ltr16valve]

thank you for replying again. 

 

I specifically asked if anything had been changed or modified on the cooker, being customers have had  the door glass breaking a lot and was told no changes. 
 

I will get a sar in Monday morning. 
 

all we want is a fan oven that works 100% of the time not for a small proportion of the time. 

[BankFodder]

I think it will help you to identify specific models which might suit your requirements – not only including Hotpoint – but other manufacturers as well. I think you will need to get some idea of value

[2ltr16valve]

Do you mean value to replace with a model that functions as our previous model ? 

[BankFodder]

When you bring a claim in any court, you almost always have to bring for £value. In other words it is extremely difficult – and certainly not possible in this case – simply to get an order from the court forcing them to carry out their promise.

First of all, who are you going to sue? Are you going to sue the supplier? I think you may not be able to any more because it seems to me that you have taken a different route to sort out the problem and as a result of that, the supplier may well be absolved of their legal responsibility. I think you could get into a very complicated argument about this and you may not win.

Are you going to sue the manufacturer? If you are going to sue them then on what basis? It would have to be contractual. You would have to make out that there was a contract in which you agreed to surrender the rights which you had with the supplier in exchange for a new oven on a "like for like" basis. That might work. However, you then have to sue for the value of your oven. Your oven, as I've already pointed out, in 2019 did not have a new value. It had a reduced value. I suppose a lot depends on what was actually said on the telephone but because you don't have a recording, you have no way of finding out unless you are able to get a copy of their recording which was made about six months ago – so far as I understand it.

If they said that they would replace your old oven with a new oven then maybe you have something to go on. But we need to know what was exactly said. I think you can be pretty certain that they will put up a fight on this. It's a shame that you hadn't read our customer services guide and recorded the call because now we wouldn't have to speculate and we would know better what we were talking about.

 

 

[2ltr16valve]

Hi bankfodder. 
 

the call discussing the change of cooker was made beginning of January this year. Shortly before the delivery. 
yes I intend to sue the manufacturer as they changed the cooker so as far as I know the contract is now with them. They have not supplied what was agreed. 
I also intend to refer to trading standards as I do not feel this cooker is as described for the whole market and is dangerous. It’s impossible to know how to cook food fully and at what temperature - as I say no food manufacturer give instructions on a part time fan oven. 

[BankFodder]

If you believe that the oven is possibly dangerous as you say then you should be looking at this act where it is clear that a defect in a product can include defective instructions 

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1987/43/section/3

 

And if you are a person who is affected by this then in principle you have a right of action

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1987/43/section/41

[2ltr16valve]

so the fact the item is sold as a fan oven when it only works as such a % of the time would be covered by this ? 

[BankFodder]

That is not something I can say. That is an argument that you would have to put before a judge – and of course if you can put the argument to Hotpoint so that they think that maybe it's better simply to sort it out rather than confront you in court, that will be the best way forward.

Read the statue and you will discover exactly what it is you have to show. But generally speaking it's a reasonableness test – like much of law in England and Wales – and you will have to persuade a judge that the safety of the oven is not such as persons generally are entitled to expect blah blah. In this case you are going to have to talk about the oven together with the instructions.

You say that there are lots of other people who are complaining about the same thing. That would tend to suggest that consumers expect rather different and it will be helpful to you if you can get a few of these people over to this thread and to make their contributions. Don't forget though that this is about defective products which means that the consumer expectation is one that has to be taken in the context of risks of personal injury. You say that because of the lack of instructions or  the poor instructions and because of the very different way that the oven operates compared to all other products on the market, that there is a danger that a consumer might not cook something properly with the consequential risk of food poisoning.

If you can show that the way the oven works and the lack of instructions together with the culture of most other ovens results in safety risk beyond what reasonable consumers would expect – then you probably have a winning argument.

[2ltr16valve]

SAR is in, they say at the beginning of calls they they ‘Are recorded’ yet on email have said ‘may be recorded’ I smell a rat. We shall see. 
In any case I can show that the model changed from our original item and the replacement from the manuals. It’s just proving they (hotpoint) didn’t tell me that so miss sold/miss described the item. 

[ericsbrother]

You may find that they have to use this feature because some EU rule for saving polar bears applies and if that is the case you are stuffed as would ever one else be if they expect something that works, you know vacuum cleaners, hair dryers light bulbs, that sort of stuff

[2ltr16valve]

Just had a phone call from a manager in the claims department, they are going to refund us £409 plus goodwill so total of £475 by cheque (the extra to buy food while cheque clears and have no cooker!)

 

wouldnt get any better outcome I dont think with going small claims I dont think.

 

Now just to find a cooker which has a proper fan oven !

[dx100uk]

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