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    • My WS as I intend to send it... any problems anyone can spot?         In the county court at Middlesbrough Claim No:  Between Vehicle Control Services Limited (Claimant) V   (Defendant) Witness Statement Introduction It is admitted that the Defendant is the registered keeper of XXnn XXX   Locus standi/bye-laws and Relevant land Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedom Act 2012 (PoFA) allows recovery of unpaid parking charges from the keeper of the vehicle. However, the first paragraph 1 (1) (a) states that it only applies “in respect of parking of the vehicle on relevant land:”. The definition of “relevant land” is given in paragraph 3 (1) where subsection (c) excludes “any land ... on which the parking of a vehicle is subject to statutory control”.  The bus stop is not on relevant land because the public road on which that stand is on is covered by the Road Traffic Act.  Notwithstanding that the claimant claims that " the claimant has given the Defendant its contractual licence to enter the site", the claimant has not given any contractual licence whatsoever. This is a road leading to/from the airport which is covered by the Road Traffic Act.  A list of highways on the Highways act 1980 does not even exist. The defendant brings the attention of the court that VCS is using this non existent document issue as a deliberate strategy to debunk the fact that this road is not relevant land. VCS are put to strict proof that it is relevant land not covered by the Road Traffic Act nor by Byelaws. While it is true that landowners can bring in their own terms, it is also true that whatever terms they bring  cannot overrule Byelaws and the Road Traffic Act. If Bye Laws are involved then the bus stop is not relevant land and neither is the specious argument about First Great Western Ltd. Is the claimant ignorant of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012? The road outside of Doncaster Sheffield Airport is not relevant land and is not covered by the Protection of Freedoms Act. That makes the charge against the claimant tantamount to fraud or extortion. The claimant mentions a couple occasions where they have won such cases. It is brought to the attention of the court that none of those cited cases were on airport land. VCS actually has also lost a lot more cases than they have won using their prohibitive signs.  Airport land is covered by Bye Laws and hence the claim by VCS is not applicable in this instance. The remit of VCS ends in the car park and does not extend to the bus stops on public roads or land which they have no jurisdiction over. All classes of people go to the airport. This includes travellers, taxis, fuel bowsers, airport staff, companies delivering food and drink for each aircraft, air traffic controllers and buses with passengers. It is therefore absolutely ridiculous to attribute VCS with any sort of permissions. The defendant submits that VCS should not confuse a major thoroughfare with a car park and presume to act as land owners and usurp the control of any land which is not relevant to them.   Protection of Freedoms Act The clearest point on section 4.1 of the Protection of Freedoms act is that “The provisions in Schedule 4 are intended to apply only on private land in England and Wales. Public highways are excluded as well as any parking places on public land which are either provided or controlled by a local authority (or other government body). Any land which already has statutory controls in relation to the parking of vehicles (such as byelaws applying to airports, ports and some railway station car parks) is also excluded.” Therefore, as this case pertains to an airport, the claimant unlawfully obtained the registered keeper’s details against the defendant’s vehicle. Thus, on this basis alone, the defendant implores the court to throw out this case. Notwithstanding the above point, if perchance Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms act 2012 were to apply, the claimant is put to strict proof that they complied with the requirements of section 7 stating, “(1)A notice which is to be relied on as a notice to driver for the purposes of paragraph 6(1)(a) is given in accordance with this paragraph if the following requirements are met. The notice must — (a)specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;” Without such proof the court must of necessity throw out this case forthwith.   Deceit, Intimidation and Extortion The Claimant’s Particulars of Claim include £50 legal costs, yet in the letter dated  03/06/2021, the Claimant stated that they were no longer represented by Elms Legal and all further correspondence should be sent to the VCS in-house litigation department. Why should the Claimant be asking the Defendant to contribute to their employee’s salary?  Furthermore, as per another letter dated 30th July 2021, the Claimant wrote, ‘Should you fail to accept our offer of settlement then we will proceed to Trial and bring this letter to the Court’s attention upon question of costs in order seek further costs of £220 incurred in having to instruct a local Solicitor to attend the hearing in conjunction with the amount claimed on the Claim Form.’ I find this an extraordinary statement given the Claimant knows legal costs are capped at £50 in Small Claims Court. I cannot think of any reason why the Claimant would write this letter other than to intimidate the opposing party with the threat of an extortionate sum of money, hoping they would be able to take advantage of someone not knowing the Small Claims Court rules. Given that this letter came from the Claimant’s in-house litigation department, clearly well-versed in the law, this cannot be anything but deceitful and disingenuous behaviour which the court should never tolerate.    Contractual costs / debt recovery charge  In addition to the £50 legal costs, the Claimant is seeking recovery of the original £100 parking charge plus an additional £60 which is described as ‘debt collection costs’. In the Vehicle Control Service v Claim Number: 18 on 4th September 2019, District Judge Jones-Evans stated, ‘Upon it being recorded that District Judge Jones-Evans has over a very significant period of time warned advocates […] in many cases of this nature before this court that their claim for £60 is unenforceable in law and is an abuse of process and is nothing more than a poor attempt to go behind the decision of the Supreme Court in Beavis which inter alia decided that a figure of £160 as a global sum claimed in this case would be a penalty and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and therefore unenforceable in law and if the practice continued he would treat all cases as a claim for £160 and therefore a penalty and unenforceable in law. It is hereby declared […] the claim be struck out and declared to be wholly without merit and an abuse of process.’  In Claim number F0DP806M and F0DP201T, Britannia v Crosby went further in a landmark judgement in November 2019 which followed several parking charge claims being struck out in the area overseen by His Honour Judge Iain Hamilton-Douglas Hughes GC, the Designated Civil Judge for Dorset, Hampshire, Isle of White & Wiltshire. District Judge Taylor echoed the earlier General Judgement or Orders of District Judge Grand stating, ‘It is ordered that the claim is struck out as an abuse of process. The claim contains a substantial charge additional to the parking charge which it is alleged the Defendant contracted to pay. This additional charge is not recoverable under the Protection of Freedom Acts 2012, Schedule 4 nor with reference to the judgment in ParkingEye v Beavis. It is an abuse of process from the Claimant to issue a knowingly inflated claim for an additional sum which it is not entitled to recover. This order has been made by the court of its own initiative without a hearing pursuant to CPR Rule 3.3(4) of the Civil Procedure Rules 1998…’ Vehicle Control Service v Claim Number: 19 51. Moreover, the addition of costs not specified on signage are also in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, Schedule 2, specifically paras 6, 10 and 14.  It is the Defendant’s position that the Claimant in this case has knowingly submitted inflated costs and thus the entire claim should be similarly struck out in accordance with Civil Procedure Rule 3.3(4).  The Defendant is of the view that the Claimant knew, or should have known, that to claim in excess of £100 for a parking charge on private lands is disallowed under the Civil Procedure Rules, the Beavis Case, the Protection of Freedom Act 2012 and Consumer Rights Act 2015, and that relief from sanctions should be refused.   Alleged contract The court should consider if there is any contract to start with and if the alleged offence is on relevant land. The consideration will inevitably lead the court to conclude that there is no contract.  Also the court should note that there is no valid contract that exists between VCS and Peel. Under the Companies Act, a contract should be signed by the directors of both companies and witnessed by two independent individuals. This alleged contract, which makes no mention of pursuing registered keepers of vehicles to court, makes its first appearance as a Witness Statement. Thus the alleged contract is null and void.  The Beavis case referred to by the claimant is about parking in a car park. The claimant is here attempting to equate that case to stopping, not parking, in a bus stop and on a road that is covered by the Road Traffic Act. The defendant submits that there can be no contract as there is no offer but there is only a prohibition. Again, it is not relevant land and VCS has absolutely no rights over it. Further, the defendant would like to point out that motorists NEVER accept any contract just by entering the land. First they must read it and understand it and then, and only then can they realise that "No stopping" is prohibitive and cannot offer a contract.   Bus stop signage The signs around the bus stop do not mention who issued the “No Stopping” signs so it could not have been issued by VCS since the IPC CoP states that their signs should include the IPC logo and that the creditor should be identified. Nothing on the signs around the bus stop that says “NO Stopping” mentions VCS or Peel Investments who are now purporting to be the land owners of a public road. As the signage should identify the creditor, since it does not, this is a breach of the CoP.   The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016 does not prohibit stopping in a restricted bus stop or stand, it prohibits stopping in a clearway. The defendant would like to ask the court to consider if any clause of the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016 that the claimant alleges has been violated by the defendant. There is no mention of permits on the signage. If there were, would it mean that Permit holders were allowed to stop on “No Stopping” roads? Notwithstanding what the claimant calls it, the mentioned signage is NOT a contractual clause. A “No stopping” sign is not an offer of parking terms.  Since the signage around the bus stop is prohibitive, it is as such is incapable of forming a contract. Further, the defendant would like to point out that the prohibitive sign is not actually at the bus stop but a few metres before the stand itself. There is no mention of a £100 charge for breaching the “No stopping” request, or if there is one then it is far too small to read, even for a pedestrian. As already stated, a Witness Statement between VCS and Peel Investments is not a valid document. It will need more than the Claimants feather to outweigh the case against the Defendant regardless of who was driving. There is no law of agency involved. This is not a case of employer/employee relationship. VCS cannot transfer the driver's liability to the registered keeper. There can be no comparison between a railway station and an airport. This is a totally fatuous analogy which cannot be applied to this case.  As stated in the defence, it is denied the Claimant is entitled to the recovery or any recovery at all. The nefarious parking charge notice given for a vehicle on a public road bus stop was ill advised to start with.   Conclusions:   VCS has failed to present ANY reasonable and valid cause to apply to the DVLA for the Defendants details. VCS has failed to provide ANY valid  contract with the landowners. “No stopping” is prohibitive therefore cannot form a contract the event happened on a bus stop over which VCS has no jurisdiction the signage either does not show that there was a charge of £100 for stopping, or the font size was too small for any motorist to be able to read it  the signage does not show the Creditor which fails the IPC CoP and hence the signage is not valid the WS contract does not authorise VCS to pursue motorists to Court Given all these factors it seems that VCS have breached the GDPR of the Defendant quite substantially and it would appear right that an exemplary award is made against VCS in the hope that they will drop all further cases at Doncaster airport where they are pursuing motorists on non relevant land. The Defendant wishes to bring to the attention of the court that the Claimant cites an irrelevant case of a car park and tries to apply its merits to a bus stop. That in itself invalidates the entire fallacious claim. Accordingly, this case is totally without merit. Some statements are pretty close to perjury and others are designed to mislead or misdirect. None of the analogies seem appropriate or relevant. All the false information presented as a statement of truth could have been stated using half the words and without all the repetition which appears to be trying to build a strong case where there is none at all. One particularly bad example of misdirection is in the photographs. The Clearway sign shown near the bus stop is very unclear unlike the Clearway sign two photos before it which may well include terms and conditions. The one by the bus stop is totally different.   47. Lastly I wish to bring to the attention of the court, a systematic pattern of the Claimant’s court action behaviour in several of their cases. They tend to have a VCS paralegal writing a Witness Statement, then mentioning in the last paragraph of the Witness Statement that they may be unable to attend court and subsequently the paralegals never turn up to be cross examined. In the event that Mohammed Wali is unable to attend court to be asked about his claims, then I would like to know why he is not able to attend when the hearing has been scheduled months in advance, is during working hours and as a result of covid, is online, meaning there is no travel involved. Ambreen Arshad, the other paralegal employed by VCS, does exactly the same. 
    • Hang on. don't panic!   You sent the snotty letter which has told the fleecers to put up or shut up.  So far they've haven't taken you to court.  This might change, but so far you're in the driving seat.  You don't have to deal with them any more.  It's up to them if they have the gonads to start court action or not.   Regarding DCBL, they are not representing their client in the normal way that a solicitor represents a client, because the sums of money involved are too low for that.  They are just chucked a few quid to send a couple of "threatening" letters.  There is no point in dealing with them.   If you want the original PCN send a SAR to UKPCM only.  For the SAR letter simply click on "SAR".   However, the SAR has nothing to do with the 30 days, you've already dealt with that with the snotty letter.  You need to read lots of similar threads and familiarise yourself with the legal process.  CAG is a superb free library.    
    • Hi again, so I will send a SAR to UKPC because I don't remember seeing the  NTK.  Then should I let DCBL know otherwise they will probably issue the court papers but they might hold off if i tell them about the SAR?   what do you think?  I need to do it this weekend or it will be beyond the 30 days.  Otherwise to let it run will definitely lead to a court case perhaps??   Can I get a copy of a SAR letter on here? thanks
    • 👍   One thing, write "unlawful", not "illegal".   Sorry to be pernickety, but "illegal" = "a crime".   "unlawful" = "not in accordance with the law".    They've lied to the DVLA but that's not actually a crime, it's misuse of your personal data which is a civil matter, and you can sue the idiots once your case is over for breach of GDPR, but it's not a criminal offence.
    • Just added also paragraph 11 stating " Notwithstanding the above point, if perchance Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms act 2012 were to apply, VCS should prove that they complied with the requirements of section 7 stating, “(1)A notice which is to be relied on as a notice to driver for the purposes of paragraph 6(1)(a) is given in accordance with this paragraph if the following requirements are met. The notice must — (a)specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;” Without such proof the court must of necessity throw out this case forthwith."
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TJ, the reason I used the term 'very vulnerable' is because I have huge empathy for those who are having lived with someone going through chemo  and little patience with the vast majority who declared themselves exempt from mask wearing.  They are the very people who could wear a mask but chose not to because they liked the idea of being special and above the rules.  There is a large crossover of those who would label themselves vulnerable when it suits them and do nothing to protect others while expecting others to protect them.

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Posted (edited)

as pics aren't allowed anymore and probably nobody would open a pdf making the effort pointless

 

Neither person wearing a mask = 90% risk of transmission

Just None infected person wearing a mask = 30% risk of transmission

 

Just infected person wearing mask = 5% risk of transmission

- 6 times LESS likely to transmit than just the 'others wearing masks

 

Both/all wearing masks = 1.5% risk of transmission

- 12 times LESS likely for transmission of the virus than just 'others wearing masks

 

 

ah redundant - HB found it

Edited by tobyjugg2

"vacuous and economically illiterate" "Moral emptiness and epidemiological stupidity”

“veil of ignorance” "unrepentant and inveterate liar" 

Boris Johnson Mendex est

 

“The failure of the cheerleaders of Brexit to acknowledge the consequences of Brexit as due to Brexit remains remarkable.” - David Schneider

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, hightail said:

TJ, the reason I used the term 'very vulnerable' is because I have huge empathy for those who are having lived with someone going through chemo  and little patience with the vast majority who declared themselves exempt from mask wearing.  They are the very people who could wear a mask but chose not to because they liked the idea of being special and above the rules.  There is a large crossover of those who would label themselves vulnerable when it suits them and do nothing to protect others while expecting others to protect them.

 

I think no-one should be exempt, and those who simply chose NOT to wear masks indoors in busy places are worse whether the law 'allows it' or not.

 

As bad or worse than someone driving through a supermarket car park on a video call on their phone.

At least the potential car victims can see and hear the car coming and actually have a chance of jumping out of the way - a covid victim is blindsided and likely to take it home to infect their loved ones

- all for want of wearing a mask while in a supermarket or bus.

Edited by tobyjugg2

"vacuous and economically illiterate" "Moral emptiness and epidemiological stupidity”

“veil of ignorance” "unrepentant and inveterate liar" 

Boris Johnson Mendex est

 

“The failure of the cheerleaders of Brexit to acknowledge the consequences of Brexit as due to Brexit remains remarkable.” - David Schneider

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Posted (edited)
56 minutes ago, honeybee13 said:

TJ, are you saying you can't see the graphic I just put up? Fwiw, I open pdf files if people post them. :)

I posted that in tandum and saw your post after

 

Just a sec HB .. sorting out the TTIP pdf ...

 

.. oops to big for the site :-)

Edited by tobyjugg2

"vacuous and economically illiterate" "Moral emptiness and epidemiological stupidity”

“veil of ignorance” "unrepentant and inveterate liar" 

Boris Johnson Mendex est

 

“The failure of the cheerleaders of Brexit to acknowledge the consequences of Brexit as due to Brexit remains remarkable.” - David Schneider

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1 hour ago, tobyjugg2 said:

all for want of wearing a mask while in a supermarket or bus.

As far as I can see the majority still are - and I'm just back in from a supermarket trip.

 

Where I've got incredibly frustrated is the kneejerk reaction to the announcement it would no longer be compulsory as if we would go from hero to zero in one quick jump.  The situation whenever I was out and about was that around 15% never did, another 30% or so had them pulled down so didn't cover both nose and mouth.  Those are the people who will give them up completely.  You may say it was better than nothing and maybe so but in reality the change is not as great as it seems.  There never was 100% compliance.

 

Things are also different now in that many of us are vaccinated and even the not so good vaccines do seem to offer worthwhile protection.

Edited by hightail
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Posted (edited)

kneejerk reaction? - you talking about johnson removing the need for masks I assume, and the 'kneejerk reaction of an increase in not wearing masks?

 

I'm seeing, and seen, nothing like those figures you state although I realise that the situation differs around the country and even from town to town. Much better compliance - until now

 

 

All this is moot as the simple, most effective way to reduce transmission *even better than jabs* is if everyone wears masks indoors in busy places

Jabs would seem to only roughly half the transmission rate ... and not that with certain vaccine/strain mixes,

see the graphic for mask wearing

 

The ONLY 'justification' I can see to drop mask wearing - is to INCREASE coronavirus transmission.

and I see no credible reason to think that is a useful outcome, let alone the lack of any apparent management of or preparation for that outcome.

let alone the risk of mutating a number of really bad strains or even 'the big one' out of that policy.

 

If it was gaining time to ramp up mitigations and NHS preparedness ...  .. but thats already been thrown away repeatedly

Edited by tobyjugg2

"vacuous and economically illiterate" "Moral emptiness and epidemiological stupidity”

“veil of ignorance” "unrepentant and inveterate liar" 

Boris Johnson Mendex est

 

“The failure of the cheerleaders of Brexit to acknowledge the consequences of Brexit as due to Brexit remains remarkable.” - David Schneider

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Posted (edited)

add this

 

"Border Force was instructed to stop checking the Covid status of passengers from green or amber-list nations on 19 July, when most lockdown restrictions were lifted in England. This means there is also no official check on whether these travellers have booked Covid tests or filled in passenger locator forms to say where in the UK they will isolate if necessary"

 

red list? Why would anyone travel to the UK from a red list country when there are so many others to route through

-  a country hopping traveler to and from wherever he likes

 

 

 

WWW.INDEPENDENT.CO.UK

Authorities losing track of people entering country with virus, union warns

 

Edited by tobyjugg2

"vacuous and economically illiterate" "Moral emptiness and epidemiological stupidity”

“veil of ignorance” "unrepentant and inveterate liar" 

Boris Johnson Mendex est

 

“The failure of the cheerleaders of Brexit to acknowledge the consequences of Brexit as due to Brexit remains remarkable.” - David Schneider

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"After all but declaring victory over the virus earlier this year, Israel is set to reintroduce restrictions. The measures include requiring vaccines and masks for more kinds of gatherings, a work-from-home policy and more sweeping travel restrictions."

-NYT

"vacuous and economically illiterate" "Moral emptiness and epidemiological stupidity”

“veil of ignorance” "unrepentant and inveterate liar" 

Boris Johnson Mendex est

 

“The failure of the cheerleaders of Brexit to acknowledge the consequences of Brexit as due to Brexit remains remarkable.” - David Schneider

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WWW.INDEPENDENT.CO.UK

The Coronavirus Files: After Sars swept across the globe, the UK drew up a plan for fighting an airborne virus arriving in Britain from China. The 2005...

 

 

"vacuous and economically illiterate" "Moral emptiness and epidemiological stupidity”

“veil of ignorance” "unrepentant and inveterate liar" 

Boris Johnson Mendex est

 

“The failure of the cheerleaders of Brexit to acknowledge the consequences of Brexit as due to Brexit remains remarkable.” - David Schneider

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WWW.CONSERVATIVEWOMAN.CO.UK

We utterly deplore this reckless vaccine rollout to children

 

Found this on Twitter, Thoughts folks?   We can follow the need to vaccinate adults,  and the rollout seems to be bearing fruit, but maybe children who may be more at risk from the vaccine is a step too far?

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Posted (edited)

only a brief view so far but certainly seems a con-wom

 

Mix and match stats to suit

adverse reactions to a tiny % of adults presented to imply/infer/link that its referring to kids,

none of the recent study stuff which despite being VERY conservative and risk averse (in the real meaning) still show that Infections and spread in children and young adults is increasing immensely with new variants

 

* long covid is still a significant issue even in the very conservative and limited studies

 

I understand the conservative stances when dealing with kids, but the latest stats and info needs to be used, not miss-presenting out of date stuff that was never really 'in date'

 

 

 

Edited by tobyjugg2

"vacuous and economically illiterate" "Moral emptiness and epidemiological stupidity”

“veil of ignorance” "unrepentant and inveterate liar" 

Boris Johnson Mendex est

 

“The failure of the cheerleaders of Brexit to acknowledge the consequences of Brexit as due to Brexit remains remarkable.” - David Schneider

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Posted (edited)

note there are no links to real studies.reports to support the rhetoric - its just an opinion piece, and a bad opinion IMO

 

Its the same sort of stuff Connif does - report false stats with circular support from other niche nuts if anything at all

See also piers Corbyn

 

Edited by tobyjugg2
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"vacuous and economically illiterate" "Moral emptiness and epidemiological stupidity”

“veil of ignorance” "unrepentant and inveterate liar" 

Boris Johnson Mendex est

 

“The failure of the cheerleaders of Brexit to acknowledge the consequences of Brexit as due to Brexit remains remarkable.” - David Schneider

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I think it was the Washington Post that said earlier that a lot of the studies on covid effects and vaccination on the under 18s are from the UK and being read worldwide. So no excuse for a UK based organisation not to read them.

 

ETA: Has anyone spoken to people who don't want to be vaccinated? A friend of ours who's a doctor has had to stop talking to her grandchildren about it because they only want to believe what they read on social media, stuff like Bill Gates wanting to track them or being turned magnetic.

 

I spoke to a friend who's 30-ish and she thinks it will stop her having children if she's vaxxed.

Illegitimi non carborundum

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

Israel is one of a number of 'more reliable' sources IMO - too much political interference with the UK reports (IMCCO)

 

note a number of US and other journals are qualifying 'differing reports'/implying 'take with a pinch of salt' with some of their UK stats/claims reporting

Some gently/some more clearly

Edited by tobyjugg2

"vacuous and economically illiterate" "Moral emptiness and epidemiological stupidity”

“veil of ignorance” "unrepentant and inveterate liar" 

Boris Johnson Mendex est

 

“The failure of the cheerleaders of Brexit to acknowledge the consequences of Brexit as due to Brexit remains remarkable.” - David Schneider

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14 minutes ago, honeybee13 said:

I spoke to a friend who's 30-ish and she thinks it will stop her having children if she's vaxxed.

 

I can actually part understand that.

The reports on tests to see what the best 'vax interval' are for pregnant women are not presented  well

"vacuous and economically illiterate" "Moral emptiness and epidemiological stupidity”

“veil of ignorance” "unrepentant and inveterate liar" 

Boris Johnson Mendex est

 

“The failure of the cheerleaders of Brexit to acknowledge the consequences of Brexit as due to Brexit remains remarkable.” - David Schneider

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Interesting. I haven't seen anything on that. This lady did say that there isn't enough information, but then there's also the concern that pregnant ladies who catch covid can be very ill and it can affect the babies.

Illegitimi non carborundum

 

 

 

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Its problematic as no long term data, and Phase 3 trials are on until 2023, so no concrete data on anything as yet realistically.

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The bailiff: A 12th Century solution re-branded as Enforcement Agents for the 21st Century to seize and sell debtors goods as before Oh so Dickensian!

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Posted (edited)

just google 'pregnant vaccine; and see all the wordpress.com 'vaccine causes 4 out 5 miscarriages depopulation agenda etc

 

Those sites are IMO criminal, and wordpress.com should be prosecuted with no freedom to lie through our teeth excuses

 

Real sites with real info are swamped

Edited by tobyjugg2

"vacuous and economically illiterate" "Moral emptiness and epidemiological stupidity”

“veil of ignorance” "unrepentant and inveterate liar" 

Boris Johnson Mendex est

 

“The failure of the cheerleaders of Brexit to acknowledge the consequences of Brexit as due to Brexit remains remarkable.” - David Schneider

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Needs a proper examination of data and allow the facts to be settled. Test the pro's and Cons.

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46 minutes ago, brassnecked said:

Its problematic as no long term data, and Phase 3 trials are on until 2023, so no concrete data on anything as yet realistically.

??

Expand please

 

there are hundreds of millions of people vaccinated, many millions of which were pregnant

That the vaccines are as yet emergency approval largely due to very proper procedures and processes doesn't dent the real world data?

 

That there are no long term results from the 'new' mrna vaccines is true, although the technology itself is not new, it is new to application although is one of the longest used and more closely monitored of them all

 

There are years and years of data on adenovirus vaccines - including some known barriers re the body fighting the 'carrier' we have yet to hit

 

That they all carry some risks is unquestionable, as there is with absolutely everything including eating one heinz bean.

 

 

"vacuous and economically illiterate" "Moral emptiness and epidemiological stupidity”

“veil of ignorance” "unrepentant and inveterate liar" 

Boris Johnson Mendex est

 

“The failure of the cheerleaders of Brexit to acknowledge the consequences of Brexit as due to Brexit remains remarkable.” - David Schneider

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Posted (edited)
43 minutes ago, brassnecked said:

Needs a proper examination of data and allow the facts to be settled. Test the pro's and Cons.

 

yes it does - openly/transparently and honestly

but IMO there is enough data to declare minimal risk for the gains

 

and both the UK and Germany shamefully rejected temporary removal of patent rights - despite the UK's program receiving massive international funding - pfiser largely didnt

Edited by tobyjugg2

"vacuous and economically illiterate" "Moral emptiness and epidemiological stupidity”

“veil of ignorance” "unrepentant and inveterate liar" 

Boris Johnson Mendex est

 

“The failure of the cheerleaders of Brexit to acknowledge the consequences of Brexit as due to Brexit remains remarkable.” - David Schneider

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BN

Just occurred to me

that the UK granted emergency approval to the O/AZ vaccine apparently based on VERY few results (was it about 80?) and those quite clearly open to question (see prior links) is unusual

- all the others I've seen, even chinese, had far more stringent Emergency approval criteria. Not sure about the Russian one.

 

Certainly cause some for concern and truly shocking and trust destroying regarding a UK/Oxford brand

 

Has the O/AZ been given the EA even now by the US ? Not last I looked.

"vacuous and economically illiterate" "Moral emptiness and epidemiological stupidity”

“veil of ignorance” "unrepentant and inveterate liar" 

Boris Johnson Mendex est

 

“The failure of the cheerleaders of Brexit to acknowledge the consequences of Brexit as due to Brexit remains remarkable.” - David Schneider

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