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The point about the NHS being overwhelmed in Autumn/Winter is that there won't be enough staff or intensive care beds. There are millions of people waiting for other treatments. 

 

The Boris gamble in hoping NHS is able to cope is risky.  Government must have an idea on the excess death rate they believe is acceptable.  Horrible, but they will have a number range for this. Acceptable means what they believe they can answer to when any inquiries ask questions about actions taken.

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1 hour ago, hightail said:

I know but I got the AZ which did not fill me with confidence :)

+1

but its whats available. I tried to get pfiser and got nowhere.

 

If you are going to train a virus to escape vaccine-induced immunity

you would do exactly what (England) are doing

 

"unrepentant and inveterate liar" “Moral emptiness and epidemiological stupidity”

Boris Johnson Mendex est

 

“The failure of the cheerleaders of Brexit to acknowledge the consequences of Brexit as due to Brexit remains remarkable.” - David Schneider

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, unclebulgaria67 said:

The point about the NHS being overwhelmed in Autumn/Winter is that there won't be enough staff or intensive care beds. There are millions of people waiting for other treatments. 

 

The Boris gamble in hoping NHS is able to cope is risky.  Government must have an idea on the excess death rate they believe is acceptable.  Horrible, but they will have a number range for this. Acceptable means what they believe they can answer to when any inquiries ask questions about actions taken.

 

There may be less deaths, probably true, but hospital bed requirements is another issue entirely - especially with a pandemic allowed to let rip in a population inoculated with what is frankly a less than top rate vaccine - as a lot of the world is (or isnt vaccinated at all)

That just sounds like a variant factory to me and certainly not a 'get the Covid sickness bed usage over and done with before the winter increased need even without covid

 

and What on earth makes you think they wont just continue to lie/misdirect/blame others, and claim successes where there are none or they are somebody elses while shunting public money to private pals?

 

Where is the investment in the NHS and coping processes that the lockdown gave them (literally) breathing space for?

 

F**king nowhere but their pals tax haven pockets as far as I can see.

Edited by tobyjugg2
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If you are going to train a virus to escape vaccine-induced immunity

you would do exactly what (England) are doing

 

"unrepentant and inveterate liar" “Moral emptiness and epidemiological stupidity”

Boris Johnson Mendex est

 

“The failure of the cheerleaders of Brexit to acknowledge the consequences of Brexit as due to Brexit remains remarkable.” - David Schneider

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Posted (edited)

You seem to keep assuming these are the old school style half baked politicians rather than the completely new level of **** they are, who believe rule of law/democracy are terms to be (mis)used to suite their purposes or  something to be ignored or changed if they they get caught breaching them

 

Perhaps explain for them how shouting about "freedom day" for weeks, then muttering but you mustn't .. to reasonable people while giving free rein to the deniers ... is anything other than rank incompetence at best

Edited by tobyjugg2

 

If you are going to train a virus to escape vaccine-induced immunity

you would do exactly what (England) are doing

 

"unrepentant and inveterate liar" “Moral emptiness and epidemiological stupidity”

Boris Johnson Mendex est

 

“The failure of the cheerleaders of Brexit to acknowledge the consequences of Brexit as due to Brexit remains remarkable.” - David Schneider

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Christina Pagel of Indie Sage has written her thoughts on 'freedom day'.

 

WWW.THEGUARDIAN.COM

Allowing mass infections now is a terrible idea, even with so many vaccinated, says Christina Pagel, director of UCL’s Clinical Operational...

 

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Illegitimi non carborundum

 

 

 

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I agree that the Government should not be relaxing Covid measures yet and we will see many of the predictions come true.   But there is b#gger all I can do about it.  Boris's gamble and no doubt he will announce late August or September that he thought it was the right course of action, but the numbers mean Government will need to enforce a lockdown for a few weeks.

 

I am still going to wear a mask, if I am on public transport or in an office with many people that are too close or too many for the size of the room.  There are too many cases, where people over 50 who have had both vaccinations have become really ill or died.  

 

I visited an office today and even though there was social distancing, I kept my mask on for the 45 mins that the meeting lasted for.

 

Next week I may be going to a large function, where a very senior Civil  Servant attending is expecting a large turnout of people including many members of the public.  These events are being held because the Secretary of state has issued instructions of what they want to see happening.

 

Government may be taking the gamble for mostly economic reasons and hoping for the best that the gamble won't fail.  Purely based on the public health risk and the data, decision does not make any sense to me.

 

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

I was talking to a staff member on the tills at a local small co-op this morning after a chap just walked in with no mask and wandered around the shop. I looked at him and he just shrugged, went to the tills, payed and walked out.

 

I'm a regular there and said to lady on till, why did you serve him - I would have told him to put a mask on or leave and very nearly did anyway.

She said they have been told not to challenge anyone after it happened before, the customer started yelling and shouting and when the police were contacted, it took 3 hours for someone to drop by and say there wasn't anything they could do.

 

Thats whats here already.

 

Lets just hope that if anyone has to suffer, it stays with those who are building the issue. Seems a possibility this time.

 

Edited by tobyjugg2

 

If you are going to train a virus to escape vaccine-induced immunity

you would do exactly what (England) are doing

 

"unrepentant and inveterate liar" “Moral emptiness and epidemiological stupidity”

Boris Johnson Mendex est

 

“The failure of the cheerleaders of Brexit to acknowledge the consequences of Brexit as due to Brexit remains remarkable.” - David Schneider

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Seems quite clear that anyone who thinks Knee Jerk-Johnson,the lying incompetent has a plan other than himself surviving another day whatever else burns ... is sadly and utterly mistaken.

 

If you are going to train a virus to escape vaccine-induced immunity

you would do exactly what (England) are doing

 

"unrepentant and inveterate liar" “Moral emptiness and epidemiological stupidity”

Boris Johnson Mendex est

 

“The failure of the cheerleaders of Brexit to acknowledge the consequences of Brexit as due to Brexit remains remarkable.” - David Schneider

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Hes worn the NHS to a nub while enriching his private sector pals

Hes made UK law and word and reputation a joke

Hes thrown away months that could and should have been spent bolstering the UKs health service and implementing sensible cost effect processes and procedures

Hes trashed the UK's reputation on the vaccine supply chain front, and sh*t on necessary international partners while pandering to those who dont give a crap beyond the UK's market 'opportunities for profit while trashing UK businesses

 

bet Putins planning on giving him the Order of Saint Andrew the Apostle the First-Called

 

If you are going to train a virus to escape vaccine-induced immunity

you would do exactly what (England) are doing

 

"unrepentant and inveterate liar" “Moral emptiness and epidemiological stupidity”

Boris Johnson Mendex est

 

“The failure of the cheerleaders of Brexit to acknowledge the consequences of Brexit as due to Brexit remains remarkable.” - David Schneider

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1 hour ago, tobyjugg2 said:

I was talking to a staff member on the tills at a local small co-op this morning after a chap just walked in with no mask and wandered around the shop. I looked at him and he just shrugged, went to the tills, payed and walked out.

It's always been this way.  All anyone has to say is that they're 'exempt' and that's the end of it.  Can't question them, can't ask them to prove it.  You don't even need anything to get an official looking badge or lanyard other than just asking for it or buying one off Amazon. 

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Covid UK news – live: Deaths up by 50% as 19 July lockdown lifting ‘throws vulnerable to wolves’ (msn.com)

 

LIVE – Updated at 20:00

%7B © REUTERS SEI87245926.jpg

The number of Covid deaths is up by 50 per cent in the UK, according to the latest week-on-week data.

There have been 213 deaths reported in the last seven days - up by 71 from the seven days before that.

The new figures came as Boris Johnson was accused of throwing clinically vulnerable people “to the wolves” with his plan to lift England’s coronavirus curbs on 19 July.

People at serious risk of infection who were previously shielding will be endangered by the end of mandatory face mask-wearing, one MP said.

The PM urged people to continue to observe practices like mask-wearing and social distancing, and admitted the pandemic was not over.

But in Scotland, mask-wearing will remain mandatory in some places even as other restrictions are eased, Nicola Sturgeon has announced.

Key Points

  • Covid-related pupil absence hits new record high
  • Clinically vulnerable ‘thrown to wolves’ with warning to keep clear of unvaccinated, say MPs and charities
  • Face masks to remain mandatory in Scotland ‘for some time to come’, says Sturgeon
  • Lockdown lifting ‘perilous’ and irresponsible, says BMA
  • Covid deaths up by 50% in UK
  • Weekly deaths at highest level since mid-May, says ONS
  • England’s unlocking ‘a highly risky experiment’, German official says
  • Coronavirus summer wave could lead to hundreds of daily deaths within weeks, officials warn
  • Mixing and matching Covid vaccines a ‘dangerous trend,’ says WHO
  • WHO review process for India’s homegrown vaccine ‘Covaxin’ begins

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Posted (edited)

Scientists have accused the government of a “criminal” decision to embark on a mass infection strategy to Covid by lifting most remaining restrictions on 19 July.

 

The authors of a letter to The Lancet signed by more than 1,200 scientists and medics described the government’s strategy as “herd immunity by mass infection” and branded it “unscientific and unethical”.

 

Lancet editor-in-chief Richard Horton said that chief medical officer Chris Whitty was “wilfully misrepresenting scientific opinion” with claims that there was widespread support for the prime minister’s approach.

 

WWW.INDEPENDENT.CO.UK

Poll finds Britons in droves turning off contact-tracing app

 

 

 

WWW.THELANCET.COM

 

Edited by tobyjugg2

 

If you are going to train a virus to escape vaccine-induced immunity

you would do exactly what (England) are doing

 

"unrepentant and inveterate liar" “Moral emptiness and epidemiological stupidity”

Boris Johnson Mendex est

 

“The failure of the cheerleaders of Brexit to acknowledge the consequences of Brexit as due to Brexit remains remarkable.” - David Schneider

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Vallance and Whitty are in an impossible position, because they have become part of the team and therefore don't want to be seen to be blocking Government from taking actions which are more about economics.

 

It could be that they have private doubts, but in a national crisis moment, they don't feel they can openly disagree with the Government.

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sell outs is the term

Its their duty to deliver facts and guidance based on those facts, not political agendas, let alone when that agenda is scientifically and morally VERY clearly wrong

 

You could see their doubts - in the past - you can still see their doubts now - but they are spinning the lies anyway

- following Oxford universities path from respected scientists into political pawns scorned by those with whom they used to be peers.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If you are going to train a virus to escape vaccine-induced immunity

you would do exactly what (England) are doing

 

"unrepentant and inveterate liar" “Moral emptiness and epidemiological stupidity”

Boris Johnson Mendex est

 

“The failure of the cheerleaders of Brexit to acknowledge the consequences of Brexit as due to Brexit remains remarkable.” - David Schneider

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The number of signatories to the Lancet letter has shot up - it was 120 the last time I saw a figure.

 

This is the view ffom New Zealand, some quite strong comments from their academics as well.

 

WWW.NEWSROOM.CO.NZ

If you wanted to teach the coronavirus how to evade vaccine-induced immunity, you would do what the United Kingdom is about to.

 

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Illegitimi non carborundum

 

 

 

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Will Boris change decision by end of the week? Holland has seen 500% increase in positive Covid cases since they removed safety measures.

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Posted (edited)

Johnson the incompetent liar has backed himself into a corner

 

The ERG is driving the 'let them die we need our business back to normal' and the real Tories who might mitigate that have been largely quelled or simply got rid of by Johnson, and his let the bodies pile high comment and complete lack of any real world implementations of mechanisms to address 'the new normal' simply demonstrates he doesn't give the slightest damn about anyone but himself.

 

We are already past Brexit done, and the point where all the blame for the pandemic can be laid at Johnson, Whitty and Handcocks feet - his usefulness as a blame dump is overcasting his potential for getting Piers Morgan votes

He needs the ERG more than they need him - in fact once he's got the culling back on track, he'll be a liability

 

There isnt even a business case for this - no case anywhere except Johnson maintaining his base ERG support

(I think few with sense are going to go back into city centers unless they are forced - as we know)

 

..

Cameron and May must be quietly pleased that few will ever again think they were the 'worst UK PM's ever' since Johnson, although Cameron and Corbyn should always be considered  the arses on which Johnson stood.

(stood on the 'shoulders of ..)

 

Edited by tobyjugg2
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If you are going to train a virus to escape vaccine-induced immunity

you would do exactly what (England) are doing

 

"unrepentant and inveterate liar" “Moral emptiness and epidemiological stupidity”

Boris Johnson Mendex est

 

“The failure of the cheerleaders of Brexit to acknowledge the consequences of Brexit as due to Brexit remains remarkable.” - David Schneider

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Posted (edited)

WE need a new T shirt

Johnson stood on the shoulders of two asses (donkeys) (2-symbolic of greed) named Cameron and Corbyn ... leading four horsemen - with the appropriate backgrounds of war, food shortages, and plague with horrible mounds of dead loved ones

 

Edited by tobyjugg2

 

If you are going to train a virus to escape vaccine-induced immunity

you would do exactly what (England) are doing

 

"unrepentant and inveterate liar" “Moral emptiness and epidemiological stupidity”

Boris Johnson Mendex est

 

“The failure of the cheerleaders of Brexit to acknowledge the consequences of Brexit as due to Brexit remains remarkable.” - David Schneider

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Johnson has been accused of throwing some people in England “to the wolves” after the clinically vulnerable were told to avoid people who haven’t had both vaccine jabs and advised to do their shopping at less busy times.

 

after

* The NHS

* Care homes

* British Biotec firms and PPE providers

* ExPats

* Fishermen

* Farmers

* Food supply chains

..... the list goes on

* even 'real' Tories and the DUP

 

Mendacium, Dividere, mittat ad lupos

 

If you are going to train a virus to escape vaccine-induced immunity

you would do exactly what (England) are doing

 

"unrepentant and inveterate liar" “Moral emptiness and epidemiological stupidity”

Boris Johnson Mendex est

 

“The failure of the cheerleaders of Brexit to acknowledge the consequences of Brexit as due to Brexit remains remarkable.” - David Schneider

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Posted (edited)

From HB's link, and see the simple math earlier in the thread already referencing this that showed that for the non mRNA vaccines and the new variants, it seems we have actually been below the referenced vaccine efficacy for some time, with the case getting worse as the % of mRNA vaccinated people relative to none mRNA (o/AZ) vaccinated people falls - making vaccine generated herd immunity an impossibility even without the unvaccinated schools kids being herded together without masks, space and improved ventilation.

 

"(Johnson plans)  doesn't just endanger New Zealand over the next few months, but in fact threatens to unroll the progress of the vaccine rollout in every country. If new variants reduce the effectiveness of vaccines, that extends the needed threshold for population immunity. And recent modelling from Te Pūnaha Matatini found that, for New Zealand at least, a full 97 percent of the population would need to be vaccinated if vaccine efficacy fell to 70 percent and the dominant global variant was highly transmissible.

That would make reaching immunity through vaccination alone effectively impossible. It would necessitate ongoing, low-level public health restrictions for an extended period of time, if not indefinitely.

For those countries which are not able to maintain those measures or which have failed to exclude Covid-19 to date, the picture would be even more grim."

 

We (the UK), probably most none mRNA vaccinated countries without significant other mitigations, and additionally at least every low vaccination rate country are almost certainly already there and have been for some time.

 

(China and a number of the far east nations maintain high levels of mitigations inc mask wearing and temperature checks)

Edited by tobyjugg2
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If you are going to train a virus to escape vaccine-induced immunity

you would do exactly what (England) are doing

 

"unrepentant and inveterate liar" “Moral emptiness and epidemiological stupidity”

Boris Johnson Mendex est

 

“The failure of the cheerleaders of Brexit to acknowledge the consequences of Brexit as due to Brexit remains remarkable.” - David Schneider

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There is a Fifth and Sixth Horseman,

5: Klaus Schwab, the epitome of a Bond Villain with his WEF  Great Reset and Blofeld like appearance,

 

6: Stanley Johnson who for years has been extolling a radical reduction of UK population from 60 odd million, down to below 20 million.

 

Johnson is incapable of anything positive to address the problems we now face.

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The bailiff: A 12th Century solution re-branded as Enforcement Agents for the 21st Century to seize and sell debtors goods as before Oh so Dickensian!

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In the Bristol area, we are seeing increasing number of offices and schools closing due to positive covid cases.

 

Appears to be the same around the UK.  Middlesborough and Sunderland reporting large increase in the last week.

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5 hours ago, brassnecked said:

Johnson is incapable

 

summarised BN.

 

The thing is a real PM/project manager/planner simply cant work on a 'throw some BS at the current problem and hope for the best .. and lie' basis

 

You cant plan taking your bin out and really expect a modicum of success on that basis - let alone run a country, let alone negotiate trade deals, let alone manage a pandemic.

 

The Piers Morgan is liability exponentiated.

 

 

If you are going to train a virus to escape vaccine-induced immunity

you would do exactly what (England) are doing

 

"unrepentant and inveterate liar" “Moral emptiness and epidemiological stupidity”

Boris Johnson Mendex est

 

“The failure of the cheerleaders of Brexit to acknowledge the consequences of Brexit as due to Brexit remains remarkable.” - David Schneider

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On 13/07/2021 at 12:16, honeybee13 said:

So since your second vax - how long ago, please remind me/us? - have you noticed any difference in your antibody levels?

I did the one test around four weeks post 2nd vax and that's the one where levels had gone up by 100x.  They aren't joking when they say how important it is to get that second dose.  What I can't know is how important the interval is, if at all.  Mine was twelve weeks and they're now running at eight weeks I believe.      

 

I did two tests after the first jab, one four weeks after and one just before the second.  My levels had doubled in those eight weeks.  I can't say if they were static, still rising or falling at that point.

 

Much as I'd love to know of further change  I'm holding back until there's reason to spend more money.  If there's a drive to pump more of the same vaccine into us in the autumn I'll probably check again to decide if I want/need to.    

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Posted (edited)

"Representatives of Pfizer met privately with senior U.S. scientists and regulators on Monday to press their case for swift authorization of coronavirus booster vaccines, amid growing public confusion about whether they will be needed and pushback from federal health officials who say the extra doses are not necessary now.

 

The high-level online meeting, which lasted an hour and involved Pfizer’s chief scientific officer briefing virtually every top doctor in the federal government, came on the same day Israel started administering third doses of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine to heart transplant patients and others with compromised immune systems."

 

WWW.NYTIMES.COM

After meeting with company representatives, officials said the decision would depend partly on data on infections in vaccinated people that cause...

 

 

 

WWW.OX.AC.UK

The University of Oxford in partnership with AstraZeneca began vaccinations on 27 June 2021 for a new phase in human trials to test a COVID-19...

 

WWW.C19VACCINESTUDY.COM

A clinical study to evaluate investigational vaccines against a COVID-19 virus variant is now enrolling. If you are 30 years of age or older you may be able...

 

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.06.08.447308v1.full.pdf

Edited by tobyjugg2

 

If you are going to train a virus to escape vaccine-induced immunity

you would do exactly what (England) are doing

 

"unrepentant and inveterate liar" “Moral emptiness and epidemiological stupidity”

Boris Johnson Mendex est

 

“The failure of the cheerleaders of Brexit to acknowledge the consequences of Brexit as due to Brexit remains remarkable.” - David Schneider

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